Game of Dues Ex Machina

[TimJames]

In the Song of Ice and Fire, a lot of characters both good and bad have found themselves in difficult situations. Sometimes they had to use drastic measures to get out of those situations, sometimes they don't and instead just die.

Pick a situation where the heroes were in a hopeless/seemingly hopeless situation, and use a contrived plot device to save the day.

[renatofq]

Tyrion not being killed by the Mountain clans was total nonsense.

[khal drogon]

Jon Snow not executed by Night's watch after his desertion.

 That one time Shadowbaby.

Daenerys with dumb masters selling all the unsullied.

Tyrion surviving Green Fork.

These are what I could think of now.

[Bright Ancalagon]

Whats wrong with The Green Fork?

[Protagoras]

Jon Snow gets saved by Bran and avoid taking the consequences of his own actions. Later - Stannis attacks and once again Jon avoids taking the consequences of his choice of killing Mance.

Jon Snow receiving a priceless valyrian steel Tywin Lannister would die for, for doing nothing but his job

Daenerys gaining the unsullied by plot stupidity

While not a plot device, Tyrions plot armour/extra lives are also pretty significant

The shadowbaby on Renly need to be mentioned as well

The direwolves and dragons are not a deus ex, but a necessary setting. I also have a hard time swallow Jon elected as compromising candidate, but I don´t think it is a deus ex but setting too. Stannis actually showing up at the wall in the first place is also more of a necessary setting.

[TerrorVoid]

Jon Snow not executed by Night's watch after his desertion.

 That one time Shadowbaby.

Daenerys with dumb masters selling all the unsullied.

Tyrion surviving Green Fork.

These are what I could think of now.

 

Jon Snow gets saved by Bran and avoid taking the consequences of his own actions. Later - Stannis attacks and once again Jon avoids taking the consequences of his choice of killing Mance.

Jon Snow receiving a priceless valyrian steel Tywin Lannister would die for, for doing nothing but his job

Daenerys gaining the unsullied by plot stupidity

While not a plot device, Tyrions plot armour/extra lives are also pretty significant

The shadowbaby on Renly need to be mentioned as well

The direwolves and dragons are not a deus ex, but a necessary setting. I also have a hard time swallow Jon elected as compromising candidate, but I don´t think it is a deus ex but setting too. Stannis actually showing up at the wall in the first place is also more of a necessary setting.

Tbh, all of this was not Deus Ex machine.

Jon desertion was explained pretty well by book.

Shadowbaby even more so, since Mannis probably COULD defeat Relny without it.

Daenerys unsullied was discussed a lot, this is not much of a plot hole.

Tyrion was pretty likely to survive GF too, since he is son of Tywin, and thus - most valuable hostage.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Jon Snow gets saved by Bran and avoid taking the consequences of his own actions. Later - Stannis attacks and once again Jon avoids taking the consequences of his choice of killing Mance.

Jon Snow receiving a priceless valyrian steel Tywin Lannister would die for, for doing nothing but his job

Daenerys gaining the unsullied by plot stupidity

While not a plot device, Tyrions plot armour/extra lives are also pretty significant

The shadowbaby on Renly need to be mentioned as well

The direwolves and dragons are not a deus ex, but a necessary setting. I also have a hard time swallow Jon elected as compromising candidate, but I don´t think it is a deus ex but setting too. Stannis actually showing up at the wall in the first place is also more of a necessary setting.

None of these are examples of Deus Ex. Deus Ex Machina is something that comes out of nowhere at the last second because the author has written himself into a corner. Bran was already established to be in convergence with Jon. They spent much of ASOS headed in each others' direction. Whatever your feelings about Longclaw, it's not a device that comes out of nowhere and improbably saves the day at the last second. It's not the Sword of Gryffindor popping out of the Sorting Hat. At most, it's an absurdly lavish gift. Dany gains the Unsullied by using her dragons -- which didn't pop into existence at the exact second she needed them to, but rather a book and a half before this. Tyrion's survival cannot be Deus Ex. A character not dying isn't a machine from God. The shadowbaby on Renly did come out of left field, but it wasn't necessarily Stannis' only option, simply his easiest and most profitable. 

I would say that the closest thing to Deus Ex Machina would be Tywin showing up at Blackwater, though I say this only because I can't remember if there were hints he was on the march beforehand. Anyone feel free to correct me. 

[TerrorVoid]

I would say that the closest thing to Deus Ex Machina would be Tywin showing up at Blackwater, though I say this only because I can't remember if there were hints he was on the march beforehand. Anyone feel free to correct me. 

Edmure Tully has thrown him back on Red Fork when Robb was baiting him in Westernlands.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Edmure Tully has thrown him back on Red Fork when Robb was baiting him in Westernlands.

It's morning and I'm not good at those so excuse the following question if it's exceedingly stupid. Does this mean that Tywin should have been heading for KL, or that he was actually established to have been engaged in the Riverlands and shouldn't have been able to make it to KL in time?

[Protagoras]

None of these are examples of Deus Ex. Deus Ex Machina is something that comes out of nowhere at the last second because the author has written himself into a corner. Bran was already established to be in convergence with Jon. They spent much of ASOS headed in each others' direction. Whatever your feelings about Longclaw, it's not a device that comes out of nowhere and improbably saves the day at the last second. It's not the Sword of Gryffindor popping out of the Sorting Hat. At most, it's an absurdly lavish gift. Dany gains the Unsullied by using her dragons -- which didn't pop into existence at the exact second she needed them to, but rather a book and a half before this. Tyrion's survival cannot be Deus Ex. A character not dying isn't a machine from God. The shadowbaby on Renly did come out of left field, but it wasn't necessarily Stannis' only option, simply his easiest and most profitable. 

I would say that the closest thing to Deus Ex Machina would be Tywin showing up at Blackwater, though I say this only because I can't remember if there were hints he was on the march beforehand. Anyone feel free to correct me. 

Brans interference was a unexpected solution to a hopeless situation. Pretty textbook. The North is after all a pretty big place.

While I grant you that Longclaw didn´t solve any problems it was indeed a unexpected event. We can call it an asspull from GRRM if you prefer.

Daenerys gains the unsullied by stupidity from Astapor and a lack of a safety valve in the unsullied training. Also very clear. 

Shadowbaby is pretty obvious as well - it reminds me of the eagles from Lord of the rings. Why Melisandre just not bang every guy she sees and spawn out these is beyond me (And no - is doesn´t require a king since she suggested it to Davos)

[Bironic]

Brans interference was a unexpected solution to a hopeless situation. Pretty textbook. The North is after all a pretty big place.

While I grant you that Longclaw didn´t solve any problems it was indeed a unexpected event. We can call it an asspull from GRRM if you prefer.

Daenerys gains the unsullied by stupidity from Astapor and a lack of a safety valve in the unsullied training. Also very clear. 

Shadowbaby is pretty obvious as well - it reminds me of the eagles from Lord of the rings. Why Melisandre just not bang every guy she sees and spawn out these is beyond me (And no - is doesn´t require a king since she suggested it to Davos)

Aside from the shadowbaby none of these are really Deus Ex. Daenerys, Tyrions and Jons survival in some occasions is plot armour not Deus Ex. Yes the north is big but Jon and Bran have interacted before (Jon's visions etc.) and they are headed to the same location, and there aren't that many roads in the north so it's not unlikely that they encounter each other.

[Chancho]

Tywin not being able to cross, gave time to receive the message of Stannis  making his move.

[Protagoras]

Aside from the shadowbaby none of these are really Deus Ex. Daenerys, Tyrions and Jons survival in some occasions is plot armour not Deus Ex. Yes the north is big but Jon and Bran have interacted before (Jon's visions etc.) and they are headed to the same location, and there aren't that many roads in the north so it's not unlikely that they encounter each other.

We clearly use different definitions then. That Bran is very close locationwise doesnt really matter for two reasons

1. Jon doesn´t know this. Seen from his perspective this comes very unexpected. 
2. Bran does not appear to be a solution to Jon´s plotline until the event with the old man happens. 

The POW structure does not remove Deus Ex from it´s system. Nor does Deus Ex need to be extreme and GRRM have indeed tried to smooth them over the best he can. 

[Protagoras]

Shadowbaby even more so, since Mannis probably COULD defeat Relny without it.

How can he possibly do that without adding another Deus Ex instead?

[TerrorVoid]

How can he possibly do that without adding another Deus Ex instead?

First of all, you don't hire shadowbinder in magic universe for nothing.

Second, his LB was already shown to affect horses.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Coldhands saving Sam and Gilly at the exact time he's needed

[Protagoras]

First of all, you don't hire shadowbinder in magic universe for nothing.

Second, his LB was already shown to affect horses.

First of all, Melisandre came to him for free.

Second, compare the army size

[Maxxine]

Brans interference was a unexpected solution to a hopeless situation. Pretty textbook. The North is after all a pretty big place.

While I grant you that Longclaw didn´t solve any problems it was indeed a unexpected event. We can call it an asspull from GRRM if you prefer.

Daenerys gains the unsullied by stupidity from Astapor and a lack of a safety valve in the unsullied training. Also very clear. 

Shadowbaby is pretty obvious as well - it reminds me of the eagles from Lord of the rings. Why Melisandre just not bang every guy she sees and spawn out these is beyond me (And no - is doesn´t require a king since she suggested it to Davos)

Have to agree w/ the post you quoted. Dues ex applies when something/someone comes out of thin air bc the author didn't think ahead when writing. GRRM clearly wrote the Bran/Jon arcs so they could be in the same place at this point. Yes it's convenient but that doesn't dues ex. The gift of Longclaw also shows that GRRM was thinking ahead when it came to the plot. Longclaw doesn't just pop up out of thin air when Jon needed it most. It would be different if while he was fighting the 1st wights he was flung under the bed & randomly found a valeryian steel sword that would be different. The Astapori being stupid doesn't make it dues ex. If that's the case then a lot of things that happen in this book is dues ex. There are so many stupid decisions made. Also Drogon being there can't be dues ex bc she's had him for almost 2 books at that point. I will agree that the shadow baby that killed Renly is dues ex. That just came out of thin air bc GRRM needed Stannis to win & there was no way for him to do it in a normal battle & there was no indication of this being an option before it actually happened.

[khal drogon]

First of all, you don't hire shadowbinder in magic universe for nothing.

Second, his LB was already shown to affect horses.

Shadowbaby is the biggest example of 'dues ex machina' in the story. It exists in the story just because Stannis has to win. Though Martin called it Shadow magic we have not seen such a magic used anytime else.

[Protagoras]

 

 

Have to agree w/ the post you quoted. Dues ex applies when something/someone comes out of thin air bc the author didn't think ahead when writing. GRRM clearly wrote the Bran/Jon arcs so they could be in the same place at this point. Yes it's convenient but that doesn't dues ex. The gift of Longclaw also shows that GRRM was thinking ahead when it came to the plot. Longclaw doesn't just pop up out of thin air when Jon needed it most. It would be different if while he was fighting the 1st wights he was flung under the bed & randomly found a valeryian steel sword that would be different. The Astapori being stupid doesn't make it dues ex. If that's the case then a lot of things that happen in this book is dues ex. There are so many stupid decisions made. Also Drogon being there can't be dues ex bc she's had him for almost 2 books at that point. I will agree that the shadow baby that killed Renly is dues ex. That just came out of thin air bc GRRM needed Stannis to win & there was no way for him to do it in a normal battle & there was no indication of this being an option before it actually happened.

It does seem that I use another definition of Deus Ex then. For me, something can be a contrived plot device regardless of GRRM thought ahead or not. It´s about probability.