Game of Dues Ex Machina

[TerrorVoid]

First of all, Melisandre came to him for free.

Second, compare the army size

Size doesn't matter if all horses of your enemies army go mad.

It does seem that I use another definition of Deus Ex then. For me, something can be a contrived plot device regardless of GRRM thought ahead or not. It´s about probability.

Then every plot twist in every story (inc. real life) would be deus ex. 

[Bironic]

We clearly use different definitions then. That Bran is very close locationwise doesnt really matter for two reasons

1. Jon doesn´t know this. Seen from his perspective this comes very unexpected. 
2. Bran does not appear to be a solution to Jon´s plotline until the event with the old man happens. 

The POW structure does not remove Deus Ex from it´s system. Nor does Deus Ex need to be extreme and GRRM have indeed tried to smooth them over the best he can. 

It doesn't matter if Jon knows it or not. It matters if the readers knows/suspects it or not. Robb clearly doesn't know or suspect that the Red Wedding happens, that doesn't make it Deus Ex Machina.

No reader sees the shadowbaby coming, Stannis is cornered, only "divine" intervention can save him, hence Deus Ex Machina.

Longclaw doesn't come out of the sky to help Jon survive the wight attack. Giving it to Jon makes him a bit of a Gary Stu but it clearly isn't Deus Ex.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Euron pulling the dragon horn out of his ass to win the Kingsmoot (still cool, though)

[Protagoras]

It doesn't matter if Jon knows it or not. It matters if the readers knows/suspects it or not. Robb clearly doesn't know or suspect that the Red Wedding happens, that doesn't make it Deus Ex Machina.

No reader sees the shadowbaby coming, Stannis is cornered, only "divine" intervention can save him, hence Deus Ex Machina.

Longclaw doesn't come out of the sky to help Jon survive the wight attack. Giving it to Jon makes him a bit of a Gary Stu but it clearly isn't Deus Ex.

We as readers know that Red wedding happens for a reason but we as readers don´t know why Bran just have to be at the same place as Jon when shit goes down. There is no cause or reason for it to be that way while there is plenty for the Red wedding.

[Maxxine]

Euron pulling the dragon horn out of his ass to win the Kingsmoot (still cool, though)

If that horn can actually bind dragons I'm going to be so disappointed.

[Eddard Scissorhands]

Shadowbaby is the biggest example of 'dues ex machina' in the story. It exists in the story just because Stannis has to win. Though Martin called it Shadow magic we have not seen such a magic used anytime else.

Then every plot twist in every story (inc. real life) would be deus ex. 

Shadow baby functions in this case as a ninja like assassin. Would it still be Deux Ex if Martin used a human ninja/infiltrator/assassin to strike and quickly dissapear, instead of magic. I'm in the grey zone about this.

To the second quote, I agree to a degree with the real life part and certainly about the story part. Withouth some conveniences and coincidences there can't be a coherent story in a universe this scale.

[Protagoras]

Size doesn't matter if all horses of your enemies army go mad.

Then every plot twist in every story (inc. real life) would be deus ex. 

Not with enough Determinism

[Eddard Scissorhands]

Not with enough Determinism

Do you mean that in the sense of: If the story was more realistic, all of these characters would already be dead or not in their present (favorable) positions?

Jon would be dead. Dany would probably be a slave herself. Most would be dead and there'd be no story left to tell.

Or do you mean there are other more realistic ways -in this particular story- that could make those characters achieve the same results without certain conveniences?

But then it would probably be a completely different story. GRRM writes from an entertaining perspective. He isn't writing a documentary.

[Knight Of Winter]

Only two occasions come to my mind:

1) Astapori slavers being dumb enough not to suspect anyone ever would use Unsullied against them for the very reason Dany did: to avoid payment. One would think that they would instill some kind of "Never attack Astapor" code in them during the training

2) Summer ex Machina after Jon refused to kill an old man. This chapter presented one hell of a moral dilemma for Jon: will he kill an innocent to avoid even worse misfortune; or will he refuse to dirty his hands. Jon made his choice, but instead of facing the consequences - he got saved by one in million chance that the place where wildlings captured an old man is right next to tower where Bran was hiding.

[Eddard Scissorhands]

My personal opinion is that I guess I'm fine with a certain degree of mild plot armour in this type of story. As long as it is plausable and believable. (Stranger things have happened in my life)

I can't think of real over the top Deux Ex Machina 'X pops out at the last moment to save Y' situations in this story. But I guess there must be some light ones wedged and disguised in there.

GRRM could have gone waay more all out in this magical setting, but gladly he didn't. IMHO. Yet.

[Eddard Scissorhands]

Only two occasions come to my mind:

1) Astapori slavers being dumb enough not to suspect anyone ever would use Unsullied against them for the very reason Dany did: to avoid payment. One would think that they would instill some kind of "Never attack Astapor" code in them during the training

2) Summer ex Machina after Jon refused to kill an old man. This chapter presented one hell of a moral dilemma for Jon: will he kill an innocent to avoid even worse misfortune; or will he refuse to dirty his hands. Jon made his choice, but instead of facing the consequences - he got saved by one in million chance that the place where wildlings captured an old man is right next to tower where Bran was hiding.

You've got a point there. The slavers part was something that also raised one eyebrow. Still not sure if that strictly counts as Deux ex in my non expert mind.

About the Jon part. Well for me not so much, because the coincidence was believable. The tower is a landmark, and there aren't that many in such a barren landscape with few roads. Like I mentioned, I've had stranger 'coincidences' happen to me in real life.

[Jamie Lannister]

The shadowbaby on Renly need to be mentioned as well

I never really saw the shadow baby as DEM. It was established before this point that Stannis only keeps Melisandre around because she has real power and commands a mystical force. There's also the rather foreboding end to the Stannis/Renly parley, Stannis' certainty of victory despite rather impossible odds, etc. It upped the stakes, but it adds up in hindsight.

[Knight Of Winter]

About the Jon part. Well for me not so much, because the coincidence was believable. The tower is a landmark, and there aren't that many in such a barren landscape with few roads. Like I mentioned, I've had stranger 'coincidences' happen to me in real life.

Both Bran's and Jon's party are in midst of having a long journey - at least a hundred kilometers (in Bran's case, more like thousands). For them to find at the exact same space, at the exact same time, for the exact occasion of Jon having a moral dilemma - stretches the realms of probability and plausibility.

And there is an idea (not mine, it's established theory) for writers: don't write highly improbable events when the outcome is game-changing. It will seem like an ass-pull. Imagine the following situation: Ned is arrested and Robb calls for banners. Just as they all convene in Winterfell and are ready to march, Robb falls down the stairs and dies. Now, is this highly improbable but possible - yes. History is full of such examples - just take a look at German emperor Friedrich Barbarossa who drowned in a river while leading a crusade. But is it good writing -.no, it's an ass-pull. That's one of few elements where work of fiction (no matter how realistic) can't follow the same rules as real life.

[Eddard Scissorhands]

Both Bran's and Jon's party are in midst of having a long journey - at least a hundred kilometers (in Bran's case, more like thousands). For them to find at the exact same space, at the exact same time, for the exact occasion of Jon having a moral dilemma - stretches the realms of probability and plausibility.

And there is an idea (not mine, it's established theory) for writers: don't write highly improbable events when the outcome is game-changing. It will seem like an ass-pull. Imagine the following situation: Ned is arrested and Robb calls for banners. Just as they all convene in Winterfell and are ready to march, Robb falls down the stairs and dies. Now, is this highly improbable but possible - yes. History is full of such examples - just take a look at German emperor Friedrich Barbarossa who drowned in a river while leading a crusade. But is it good writing -.no, it's an ass-pull. That's one of few elements where work of fiction (no matter how realistic) can't follow the same rules as real life.

I see your point. The trick is not to follow overly realistic real life probabilities when writing, like I mentioned before also.

Otherwise more than a few of the characters would have fallen randomly down stairs, died of sickness etc. Like in real life without moving the plot

But! Also not to let a charachter overcome overwhelming odds. This seems difficult without terms like plot armour and DEM being called out.

ETA: all subjective but

Super realistic = asspull

Not so realistic= depends on execution

Unrealistic = asspull

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

Dragons

 

[Eddard Scissorhands]

Dragons

 

Balerion maybe.

No, I think GRRM made it clear that Dragons can be beaten. Difficult but possible. Dany's Dragons are and still will be at somewhat vulnerable sizes throughout the whole story I think.

[Nevets]

Jon being saved by Stannis.

Jon being saved by Summer.  Didn't mind that as much, though.

Arya being introduced to Yoren.  I'll be generous and accept them meeting at the execution (it's believable they were both there), and even that she discovered the secret passage (there are a lot of them, and she is inclined to explore) but Yoren knowing her is pure DEM.

Shadow baby has been used twice, so I don't really think it's DEM.

[Knight Of Winter]

But! Also not to let a charachter overcome overwhelming odds. This seems difficult without terms like plot armour and DEM being called out.

Not the same. Robb did overcome bad odds at the start of the WOT5K, and he did so thanks to his abilities (not plot armour or DEM). Ditto Dany, who has constantly been overcoming bad odds againt her (with the one DEM exception). Or Arya, who suffers one misfortune after another and somehow survives (without ever inducing DEM or plot armour).

Arya being introduced to Yoren.  I'll be generous and accept them meeting at the execution (it's believable they were both there), and even that she discovered the secret passage (there are a lot of them, and she is inclined to explore) but Yoren knowing her is pure DEM.

Didn't Yoren meet Arya when he was visiting Ned in KL ?

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Whelp.... this would have been fun.

 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Not the same. Robb did overcome bad odds at the start of the WOT5K, and he did so thanks to his abilities (not plot armour or DEM). Ditto Dany, who has constantly been overcoming bad odds againt her (with the one DEM exception). Or Arya, who suffers one misfortune after another and somehow survives (without ever inducing DEM or plot armour).

Didn't Yoren meet Arya when he was visiting Ned in KL ?

yes he did.