Would Ned Be upset with Lyanna?

[TimJames]

If Lyanna survived and lived with rhaegar happily, Ned will likely just pack the bones of his father and bother and 200 northern men, then tell her: I do not have a sister like you. You will never be welcomed in winterfell. 

If Lyanna and Rhaegar were somehow still alive, he might have killed both of them himself. 

A man can only take so much before snapping, and I'm sure finding out that Lyanna willingly doomed their father and brother (and almost him too) might have been enough to shatter Eddard's core values and principals. 

[SFDanny]

Note, please, that I said there are two reasons that change Ned's view. Both are necessary, not just the first. When Ned leaves King's Landing after the rupture of his friendship with his new king, Ned has to wonder what he fought a rebellion for if his new king countenances the killing of children, and then he sees the same fear of those children's fate reflected in his sister's eyes as she asks him to promiser her something - most likely that Ned hide and protect her son from Robert's rage. I think those two events are enough to make Ned rethink his reasons for fighting, and his reasons for being angry with Lyanna in the first place. I also think without those shocks, Ned would likely have continued in being angry with Lyanna for not doing as her family wished.

As I think you know, I don't agree the reason Lyanna's brother and father and 200 northmen are killed is because Lyanna elopes with Rhaegar. First, I think it is a rescue not a elopement. More importantly, the cause of their deaths are directly tied to the actions of Aerys and Brandon. It is their actions that lead to all the deaths you attribute to Lyanna and Rhaegar. Neither one told Brandon to ride to the Red Keep and call for Rhaegar to "come out and die" and neither one counseled Aerys to kill any of the men you speak of. Aerys is responsible for those murders all on his own.

[purple-eyes]

Note, please, that I said there are two reasons that change Ned's view. Both are necessary, not just the first. When Ned leaves King's Landing after the rupture of his friendship with his new king, Ned has to wonder what he fought a rebellion for if his new king countenances the killing of children, and then he sees the same fear of those children's fate reflected in his sister's eyes as she asks him to promiser her something - most likely that Ned hide and protect her son from Robert's rage. I think those two events are enough to make Ned rethink his reasons for fighting, and his reasons for being angry with Lyanna in the first place. I also think without those shocks, Ned would likely have continued in being angry with Lyanna for not doing as her family wished.

As I think you know, I don't agree the reason Lyanna's brother and father and 200 northmen are killed is because Lyanna elopes with Rhaegar. First, I think it is a rescue not a elopement. More importantly, the cause of their deaths are directly tied to the actions of Aerys and Brandon. It is their actions that lead to all the deaths you attribute to Lyanna and Rhaegar. Neither one told Brandon to ride to the Red Keep and call for Rhaegar to "come out and die" and neither one counseled Aerys to kill any of the men you speak of. Aerys is responsible for those murders all on his own.

Sure sure, Lyanna is a tragic and innocent victim. Everything goes to Brandon and Aerys.

She just wants to have some sweet honeymoon with a married crown prince, escape from an evil arranged marriage, keep complete silence to have some privacy, all of these are just her natural rights. 

such a poor maid. 

 

 

[SFDanny]

Sure sure, Lyanna is a tragic and innocent victim. Everything goes to Brandon and Aerys.

She just wants to have some sweet honeymoon with a married crown prince, escape from an evil arranged marriage, keep complete silence to have some privacy, all of these are just her natural rights. 

such a poor maid. 

No, Lyanna is responsible for what she does. She just doesn't cause Brandon to ride to the Red Keep and demand Rhaegar "come out and die." Brandon decides to do that on his own. To suggest otherwise makes Brandon into a preprogrammed robot that must react to his sister's "kidnapping," elopement, or rescue - choose your term - in one way. It gives Brandon no choice in what he does, and no responsibility for those choices.

This is even more evident with Aerys. How is Aerys's action in murdering Rickard, Brandon, and their 200 northmen caused by Rhaegar and Lyanna running away? Aerys does what he does because it suits Aerys to do so, not because Rhaegar and Lyanna make him do so.

What Rhaegar and Lyanna do is to put a obstacle in the way of Rickard's and Robert's marriage pact, if not stop that pact altogether. There are lots of choices for the Starks, the Baratheons, and Aerys to make following that action, but each choice is the responsibility of those who make them.

Please note that there are a host of other individuals in these stories who choose not to marry someone their lords and fathers say they must, but no one blames all that follows their refusal on them. Tyrion weds Tysha. Are they responsible for Tywin's order to gang rape Tysha? Robb marries Jeyne. Are they responsible for the Red Wedding? Do you think Lord Frey had no choice but to murder all those people? The Blackfish refuses to marry Bethany Redwyne, so is he responsible for Hoster not talking to him for years? On and on it goes, and Martin gives us plenty of examples, but you want to single out Lyanna for her refusal to marry a man she rightly thinks will be a horrible husband. Tragic figure? Yes, but not responsible for others actions.

[The Wolves]

No, Lyanna is responsible for what she does. She just doesn't cause Brandon to ride to the Red Keep and demand Rhaegar "come out and die." Brandon decides to do that on his own. To suggest otherwise makes Brandon into a preprogrammed robot that must react to his sister's "kidnapping," elopement, or rescue - choose your term - in one way. It gives Brandon no choice in what he does, and no responsibility for those choices.

This is even more evident with Aerys. How is Aerys's action in murdering Rickard, Brandon, and their 200 northmen caused by Rhaegar and Lyanna running away? Aerys does what he does because it suits Aerys to do so, not because Rhaegar and Lyanna make him do so.

What Rhaegar and Lyanna do is to put a obstacle in the way of Rickard's and Robert's marriage pact, if not stop that pact altogether. There are lots of choices for the Starks, the Baratheons, and Aerys to make following that action, but each choice is the responsibility of those who make them.

Please note that there are a host of other individuals in these stories who choose not to marry someone their lords and fathers say they must, but no one blames all that follows their refusal on them. Tyrion weds Tysha. Are they responsible for Tywin's order to gang rape Tysha? Robb marries Jeyne. Are they responsible for the Red Wedding? Do you think Lord Frey had no choice but to murder all those people? The Blackfish refuses to marry Bethany Redwyne, so is he responsible for Hoster not talking to him for years? On and on it goes, and Martin gives us plenty of examples, but you want to single out Lyanna for her refusal to marry a man she rightly thinks will be a horrible husband. Tragic figure? Yes, but not responsible for others actions.

This so much this. 

People want to put the whole rebellion on Rhaegar and Lyanna yet they forget that no banners were called when Lyanna got kidnapped. The banners were called by Jon Arryn not by the Starks or Robert. 

 

And people act like Rhaegar and Lyanna should have known that a war would break resulting in the nearly extinction of both houses. If Aerys was a saner man/King a war wouldn't have ever happened. Rhaegar and Lyanna get their share of the blame so does Aerys, Brandon, Arryn, etc... 

[sarah.jenice]

I think it is really hard to speculate with this because we only know how Ned has reacted to Lyanna’s role in what unfolded at the cost of her own life. It is a lot easier to forgive some who is dead, knowing that even though their actions have caused so much tragedy and death, they have also paid for it with their own life. Ned tells Arya that Lyanna’s wolfblood led her to an early grave. He shows a deep sadness over her loss but also an acknowledgement of Lyanna’s responsibility in her fate.

As for protecting Jon, Ned has just married Catelyn and doesn't know her at all. His father, brother and sister are dead, and his sister (as is speculated) has asked him to care for and raise her son - the only piece of her that will be left. I can see him wanting to hold onto the only thing he has of the sister he loved and to keep a Stark child in their family after so many Starks have been lost so needlessly.

I do feel for Catelyn, but I understand Ned not trusting her with Lyanna's secret. In his confrontation with Cersei, he thinks about what Catelyn would do to protect their children. How could he know if she would be willing to protect Jon when it might endanger her own children? The best way to keep is a secret is to never share it. 

[purple-eyes]

No, Lyanna is responsible for what she does. She just doesn't cause Brandon to ride to the Red Keep and demand Rhaegar "come out and die." Brandon decides to do that on his own. To suggest otherwise makes Brandon into a preprogrammed robot that must react to his sister's "kidnapping," elopement, or rescue - choose your term - in one way. It gives Brandon no choice in what he does, and no responsibility for those choices.

This is even more evident with Aerys. How is Aerys's action in murdering Rickard, Brandon, and their 200 northmen caused by Rhaegar and Lyanna running away? Aerys does what he does because it suits Aerys to do so, not because Rhaegar and Lyanna make him do so.

What Rhaegar and Lyanna do is to put a obstacle in the way of Rickard's and Robert's marriage pact, if not stop that pact altogether. There are lots of choices for the Starks, the Baratheons, and Aerys to make following that action, but each choice is the responsibility of those who make them.

Please note that there are a host of other individuals in these stories who choose not to marry someone their lords and fathers say they must, but no one blames all that follows their refusal on them. Tyrion weds Tysha. Are they responsible for Tywin's order to gang rape Tysha? Robb marries Jeyne. Are they responsible for the Red Wedding? Do you think Lord Frey had no choice but to murder all those people? The Blackfish refuses to marry Bethany Redwyne, so is he responsible for Hoster not talking to him for years? On and on it goes, and Martin gives us plenty of examples, but you want to single out Lyanna for her refusal to marry a man she rightly thinks will be a horrible husband. Tragic figure? Yes, but not responsible for others actions.

Seriously?

There is a direct relationship between Lyanna's action and Brandon's action. 

Brandon did this to respond for her action. Of course she and Rhaegar should be blamed. 

if she did not elope, why would Brandon do what he did?

"my stupid brother brandon, I never asked him to try to revenge for me. He deserved what he got. That is his own fault. nothing related to me "

Do you think this is the what Lyanna thought?

 

 

[purple-eyes]

This so much this. 

People want to put the whole rebellion on Rhaegar and Lyanna yet they forget that no banners were called when Lyanna got kidnapped. The banners were called by Jon Arryn not by the Starks or Robert. 

 

And people act like Rhaegar and Lyanna should have known that a war would break resulting in the nearly extinction of both houses. If Aerys was a saner man/King a war wouldn't have ever happened. Rhaegar and Lyanna get their share of the blame so does Aerys, Brandon, Arryn, etc... 

Lyanna probably not, but Rhaegar definitely should know there is a very high chance to have a war given what he did and what he knew. 

If he is as half as smart as he was praised. 

Dunk only abandoned his betroth and even gave up the throne, still a bloody rebellion happened. That was under a nice king Aegon V. 

A married rhaegar (whose wife is a princess), kidnapped another powerful man's finacee, disappeared from everybody, he had a crazy father who mistrusted him for very long time and enjoyed to burn people alive, and he expected there is no a big deal? He is either mad or too arrogant or too silly. 

 

 

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

Seriously?

There is a direct relationship between Lyanna's action and Brandon's action. 

Brandon did this to respond for her action. Of course she and Rhaegar should be blamed. 

if she did not elope, why would Brandon do what he did?

"my stupid brother brandon, I never asked him to try to revenge for me. He deserved what he got. That is his own fault. nothing related to me "

Do you think this is the what Lyanna thought?

 

 

No, that is not what I think Lyanna thought when she found out her brother was murdered along with her father. I imagine she is shocked, in grief for her father and brother, and, yes, probably blames herself for their deaths. We all take on responsibilities for things we did not do in times like that.

I think what she may have blamed herself for, and what she is actually responsible for are two different things. Brandon is a grown man who made is own rather rash, and, yes, stupid decision to do what he did. The idea Lyanna's action forced him to do what he did is the problem. It is just wrong to say so. I highly doubt any reasonable person would even think Brandon's reaction to be likely, but whatever it was it was his decision that gave the mad king the pretext to kill him.

[Dragonheart]

SFDanny and The Wolves 

I agree with both of you.

Adittionally, I would say that some people see the characters as totaly black or white. For them either a character is good or a monster. They can' t accept flaws in a hero. Just like in fairytales, maybe? There you have the hero and the villain and nothing between. Well, I don' t have anything against fairytales. They are great. But George doesn't write a fairytale here. His characters are almost "real" and they have flaws like everyone of us. And this is his brilliance, I believe. His characters are his strongest point. And I wonder, do these people believe that some of us are perfect creatures with no flaws, no mistakes, no misjudges, or in case we have these traits are we bad people? Really? Humans make mistakes even when they are good people.

Just my opinion anyway. And I' m sorry if my english are very flawed. Not a native speaker. I hope I made myself clear anyway.

[purple-eyes]

No, that is not what I think Lyanna thought when she found out her brother was murdered along with her father. I imagine she is shocked, in grief for her father and brother, and, yes, probably blames herself for their deaths. We all take on responsibilities for things we did not do in times like that.

I think what she may have blamed herself for, and what she is actually responsible for are two different things. Brandon is a grown man who made is own rather rash, and, yes, stupid decision to do what he did. The idea Lyanna's action forced him to do what he did is the problem. It is just wrong to say so. I highly doubt any reasonable person would even think Brandon's reaction to be likely, but whatever it was it was his decision that gave the mad king the pretext to kill him.

Brandon made a rash decision which is not a smart choice, sure, but for whom? for what?

What you are describing is that, Lyanna eloped, Brandon ran to RK and suddenly he dropped from his horse on his way and broke his neck. Then this is not Lyanna's fault. these are two separate events. 

In the current case, of course Lyanna should be blamed, I am not saying Aerys and Brandon did not have a share. 

But Lyanna and rhaegart absolutely needs to take part of the blame. 

 

 

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

Brandon made a rash decision which is not a smart choice, sure, but for whom? for what?

 

I think I was clear on what I think were Brandon's reasons in my first post in this thread.

[purple-eyes]

I think I was clear on what I think were Brandon's reasons in my first post in this thread.

I know your opinion. 

But no matter what is the exact reason (love in his sister, or anger for family dishonor, or simply tried to do something more strategic but failed, or just felt that King will be nice enough to permit him, etc, etc, ), that is due to Lyanna's action. 

Honestly, no matter what choice Brandon chose, there will be some bad effect on him and Rickard due to Lyanna's action.

(unless you think aerys will say sorry to House Stark, punish rhaegar and ask him to return Lyanna to her family and give House stark some coins to compensate for Lyanna's maidenhead)

And yes, that is what Lyanna's reckless action brought to her house. 

Just like the robb abandoned his betroth, which would surely bring bad result to his people, may not be a red wedding if frey is nicer, but still, robb had to be at least partially blamed for the bad ending.  

 

 

 

 

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

We assume because Ned and Robert led this rebellion at such a young age that people are more mature younger in Westeros.  That seems to be true sometimes, but young 18 year old Lords seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Lyanna was a kid, a young kid not mature enough to see the consequences of her rash actions. Ned would have been annoyed with her for sure, but afterwards he would have saw it for what it was. Two dumb kids who didn't think through their actions. What she did is very understandable for a girl her age.

[purple-eyes]

We assume because Ned and Robert led this rebellion at such a young age that people are more mature younger in Westeros.  That seems to be true sometimes, but young 18 year old Lords seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Lyanna was a kid, a young kid not mature enough to see the consequences of her rash actions. Ned would have been annoyed with her for sure, but afterwards he would have saw it for what it was. Two dumb kids who didn't think through their actions. What she did is very understandable for a girl her age.

Are you talking about rhaegar and Lyanna?

Rhaegar, a 24 year old man with two children, plus a crown prince who had been educated whole life to how to rule, and we know in this world, 24 year is a very very mature age, 16 year old you are supposed to rule by your own right. and a 22 year old rhaegar knows to summon a grand council to depose his mad father.  

You call him a dumb kid? 

Even Lyanna is not a kid. 15 years old during the kidnapping. look at what other 15 year old women did at this age, Dany (13), Meera (15), margarey (15), rhaella (14 for marriage), Sansa (13), etc. This is not modern world. 15 year old you are a mature woman. 

 

[SilentDystopia]

We assume because Ned and Robert led this rebellion at such a young age that people are more mature younger in Westeros.  That seems to be true sometimes, but young 18 year old Lords seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Lyanna was a kid, a young kid not mature enough to see the consequences of her rash actions. Ned would have been annoyed with her for sure, but afterwards he would have saw it for what it was. Two dumb kids who didn't think through their actions. What she did is very understandable for a girl her age.

Understandable for a girl her age in that time period? Females are groomed to learn their places in life. Marry high, produce strong male heirs, learn your role as wife. I don't think what she did was understandable for a girl her age, because she was how old? 15-16 maybe? I don't believe all the love in the would would stop Ned from seeing all that dishonor and be ok with it. Look at him and Jamie. Jamie killed his king, a person that wanted Ned and Robert dead who also killed his brother and father, and for years Ned hated and judged him. You really think he would have "seen it for what it was and let it go?".

Like Timjames98 said,

If Lyanna and Rhaegar were somehow still alive, he might have killed both of them himself. 

A man can only take so much before snapping, and I'm sure finding out that Lyanna willingly doomed their father and brother (and almost him too) might have been enough to shatter Eddard's core values and principals. 

[SFDanny]

I know your opinion. 

But no matter what is the exact reason (love in his sister, or anger for family dishonor, or simply tried to do something more strategic but failed, or just felt that King will be nice enough to permit him, etc, etc, ), that is due to Lyanna's action. 

How you reach that conclusion is amazing. Lyanna controls her elder brother's actions how? Did she use long distance mind-control? Short of that I'm not sure how you get that Brandon's actions are controlled by Lyanna. If she doesn't control his actions, then his actions are "due" to Brandon's own choices, not Lyanna's actions.

You may wish the character made other choices, and that is reasonable, but to somehow blame the actions of one character on the actions of another, just doesn't make sense.

[TimJames]

How you reach that conclusion is amazing. Lyanna controls her elder brother's actions how? Did she use long distance mind-control? Short of that I'm not sure how you get that Brandon's actions are controlled by Lyanna. If she doesn't control his actions, then his actions are "due" to Brandon's own choices, not Lyanna's actions.

You may wish the character made other choices, and that is reasonable, but to somehow blame the actions of one character on the actions of another, just doesn't make sense.

If Lyanna stayed in Riverrun like she was supposed to, Brandon would have no reason to get angry and rush to Kings Landing. 

She knows what her brother is like, and more importantly Brandon wouldn't have reason to be enraged if Rhaegar away from her.

[SFDanny]

If Lyanna stayed in Riverrun like she was supposed to, Brandon would have no reason to get angry and rush to Kings Landing. 

She knows what her brother is like, and more importantly Brandon wouldn't have reason to be enraged if Rhaegar away from her.

Brandon is "like"? Brandon has a temper, and therefore Lyanna is responsible for his inability to control it? She has to marry a man she doesn't want to marry because her brother can't control himself and will be angry. Amazing, truly amazing.

[purple-eyes]

How you reach that conclusion is amazing. Lyanna controls her elder brother's actions how? Did she use long distance mind-control? Short of that I'm not sure how you get that Brandon's actions are controlled by Lyanna. If she doesn't control his actions, then his actions are "due" to Brandon's own choices, not Lyanna's actions.

You may wish the character made other choices, and that is reasonable, but to somehow blame the actions of one character on the actions of another, just doesn't make sense.

I can see your point, 

Let me put it in this way, I will not blame Cat for LF being badly injured by Brandon, because it is LF who asked for a duel. He made his own choice to fight with Brandon. Nobody forced him. So he should be responsible for what he got. 

technically you could say Brandon did what he did by his own free will, nobody forced him. so Lyanna is also innocent. (this is your logic, right?)

However, Lyanna's eloping is different from LF's love in Cat. Lyanna actively did something which forced her family to deal with mad king for this "kidnapping". In other words, her action put her family in a high risk of danger. it does not matter if she (and rhaegar) can expect this or not. It is judged from the result. If nothing bad happened, then Lyanna is blameless, but if something bad happened, then she should be blamed.  

Cat can not stop LF's love in her, but Lyanna can choose not to put her family into this dangerous situation. 

Of course she should be blamed.