A Ghost of Someone Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 It depends on whether lyanna went willingly with Rheagar and willingly had sex to produce Jon. Simple as that. If she was kidnapped and raped or kidnapped and fell in love and had the baby are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I know the quote I have read the books more than one time. Thank you. So you really believe that the same Aerys we know about would had allowed a bunch of armed men so close to him? Seriously?As I pointed out, and part of the reason I quote Jaime's actual words, is that what he says does not imply "a bunch of armed men" are allowed close to Aerys. They are allowed in the Red Keep. In a time of peace, in which they presumably gain access as highborn emissaries. There is no reason not to let them into the Red Keep or to disarm them when they enter. If Jaime described them as having a personal conversation with Aerys, you might have a point. Given that is not what he says, if fact the inference is that Brandon starts shouting while he is still on horseback, one can guess he is still in the courtyard when he demands Rhaegar "come out and die!" Not likely he is anywhere near the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 As I pointed out, and part of the reason I quote Jaime's actual words, is that what he says does not imply "a bunch of armed men" are allowed close to Aerys. They are allowed in the Red Keep. In a time of peace, in which they presumably gain access as highborn emissaries. There is no reason not to let them into the Red Keep or to disarm them when they enter. If Jaime described them as having a personal conversation with Aerys, you might have a point. Given that is not what he says, if fact the inference is that Brandon starts shouting while he is still on horseback, one can guess he is still in the courtyard when he demands Rhaegar "come out and die!" Not likely he is anywhere near the king.We are talking about Aerys who was paranoid. The man who didn't allowed anyone near him and was thinking that his son and sisterwife were not to be trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 We are talking about Aerys who was paranoid. The man who didn't allowed anyone near him and was thinking that his son and sisterwife were not to be trusted. The very same person. I'd point out it is highly unlikely they actually ask the king about letting people into the Red Keep. In his presence would be something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 The very same person. I'd point out it is highly unlikely they actually ask the king about letting people into the Red Keep. In his presence would be something different.So Jaime happened to be at the same place with Brandon when he said it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 So Jaime happened to be at the same place with Brandon when he said it?It's not like Jaime claims he snuck into his bedroom and whispered it in his ear. Jaime says he rode into the Red Keep, which I think basically qualifies as Jaime's place of work, and shouted it out for the whole world to hear. This isn't some exclusive knowledge he claims to have. I'd imagine the stable boys and a few other servants heard it as well. Is it really so unlikely he would have heard it? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 It's not like Jaime claims he snuck into his bedroom and whispered it in his ear. Jaime says he rode into the Red Keep, which I think basically qualifies as Jaime's place of work, and shouted it out for the whole world to hear. This isn't some exclusive knowledge he claims to have. I'd imagine the stable boys and a few other servants heard it as well. Is it really so unlikely he would have heard it? I don't think so.So now Aerys allowed armed men riding horses in the Red Keep and apparently Brandon used a loudspeaker or maybe Jaime is just saying what someone else told him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 It's not that hard for Nobles to go close to the King if the King is giving audience. I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon interrupted the whole thing to ask Aerys about Rhaegar and he lost his temper and ended up yelling at the King.Remember that Jaime doesn't need to hear it all from gossip. The KG is always with the King and they all live together. There is no way they didn't gather and talked about it in the meantime of Rickard travelling to KL. So, Jaime surely has information from first hand, if not all of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 It's not that hard for Nobles to go close to the King if the King is giving audience. I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon interrupted the whole thing to ask Aerys about Rhaegar and he lost his temper and ended up yelling at the King.Remember that Jaime doesn't need to hear it all from gossip. The KG is always with the King and they all live together. There is no way they didn't gather and talked about it in the meantime of Rickard travelling to KL. So, Jaime surely has information from first hand, if not all of it.The Kingsguard guard the whole royal family. So if Jamie was watching Viserys at the time, then he wouldn't have first-hand information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 The Kingsguard guard the whole royal family. So if Jamie was watching Viserys at the time, then he wouldn't have first-hand information.By fh I meant one of the KG being with the King at the moment. (that's second hand, right? ) well, my point is that whatever happened there, even if Jaime wasn't, a KG was. That's where Jaime likely had the info from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 So now Aerys allowed armed men riding horses in the Red Keep and apparently Brandon used a loudspeaker or maybe Jaime is just saying what someone else told him?Why do I get the idea you are a hopeless skeptic about a tale Jaime has not only sworn is true, but he has no earthly reason to lie about some fifteen years later? Hoster Tully believes it is true, although he has nothing to base his judgement on other than his knowledge of the man Brandon was.And by the way, I said nothing about loudspeakers. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltess Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 OK, whole marriage life. he can do whatever he wants for Jon or Lyanna, but he should trust his spouse a little bit more and share this truth with her. It is in her own POV she said she was deeply hurt by Jon's stuff. And she died without even knowing the truth. Do not you think she deserves to know the truth? it is her marriage which was damaged, it is her feeling which was deeply hurt, it is her home which she had suffer a bastard son everyday. (keep in mind in westeros man should not bring a bastard back and raise them along with his true born children) Lyanna said "promise me Ned, promise me" we don't know exactly what she had him promise but we assume it had to do with Jon and his true parentage. If he promised never to reveal these facts to any one to assure her on her deathbed that Jon would be safe and cared for his sense of Honour would have supersceded any obligation to share the facts with Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Lyanna was dying. I'm sure she didn't have time to make a very specific clause. She probably asked Ned to protect Jon and that's it. As Ned knew what Robert did with Rhaegar's kids so he didn't want to risk Jon's safety and kept it a secret, but the secret wasn't the promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Why do I get the idea you are a hopeless skeptic about a tale Jaime has not only sworn is true, but he has no earthly reason to lie about some fifteen years later? Hoster Tully believes it is true, although he has nothing to base his judgement on other than his knowledge of the man Brandon was.And by the way, I said nothing about loudspeakers. Just for the record.We know that Brandon was a hot blooded man that is why Hoster believed it. I simply believe that Jaime was just saying something that others told him which was the excuse the royalists gave for what Aerys did. You said, and shouted it out for the whole world to hear. so what else could it be except a loudspeaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 We know that Brandon was a hot blooded man that is why Hoster believed it. I simply believe that Jaime was just saying something that others told him which was the excuse the royalists gave for what Aerys did. You saidso what else could it be except a loudspeaker?Sonorous Charm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Sonorous Charm Nice. I always thought that Brandons was the Westerosi Sirius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltess Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Lyanna was dying. I'm sure she didn't have time to make a very specific clause. She probably asked Ned to protect Jon and that's it. As Ned knew what Robert did with Rhaegar's kids so he didn't want to risk Jon's safety and kept it a secret, but the secret wasn't the promise.Ned felt his highest responsibility was to keep Jon, an innocent member of his family, safe. As someone said earlier the best way to keep a secret is to tell no one. Also I might add, to keep it close, Jon at Winterfell the safest place Ned knew. Also being a nurse myself by trade I can tell you that dying after childbirth can be a process that can take some time even though she is described as dying in a bed of blood. She may have had quite enough time to make some requests specific enough that Ned felt completely bound to several conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 We know that Brandon was a hot blooded man that is why Hoster believed it. I simply believe that Jaime was just saying something that others told him which was the excuse the royalists gave for what Aerys did. I think Hoster remark was "gallant fool" which implies something different than impulsive behavior. More along the lines of stupid behavior.As to Jamie, there is simply nothing that points to this being second-hand knowledge. Nothing in the story that rings false.You saidso what else could it be except a loudspeaker?LOL, fair enough! I'll be more careful when using that idiom in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I think Hoster remark was "gallant fool" which implies something different than impulsive behavior. More along the lines of stupid behavior.A gallant fool. It was fool that he went to KL alone, he should had an army and I bet Robert would had helped him with that and gallant because he was trying to find his sister. What else he could had done? Wait for her return or her dead body to appear? Isn't a human instict to try and help your beloved once?As to Jamie, there is simply nothing that points to this being second-hand knowledge. Nothing in the story that rings false. There is nothing that makes sense either.LOL, fair enough! I'll be more careful when using that idiom in the future.I just wanted to point it I knew what you meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Nice. I always thought that Brandons was the Westerosi Sirius.Considering Sirius actually went alone to yell at Pettigrew, yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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