Would Ned Be upset with Lyanna?

[SilentDystopia]

Brandon is "like"? Brandon has a temper, and therefore Lyanna is responsible for his inability to control it? She has to marry a man she doesn't want to marry because her brother can't control himself and will be angry. Amazing, truly amazing.

Every action causes a reaction. If Lyanna did as she was told (which BTW it's taught and forced apon every single female in that time frame) then Brandon wouldn't have reacted in such a way. Lyanna should have known her brother, just like how Ned knew his sister and so on. You don't pet the lion thinking it wont bite back; your not responsible for the lions reaction, but you did an action to make it react that way. If you knew your brother has a temper you wouldn't do something dumb to provoke him. Logically Lyanna would/should have said something or even wrote something to tame the wolf if that didn't work then you can blame it on Brandon not all the blame but most of it. Give the lion meat to tame it and if it still bites back hate it?

[TimJames]

Brandon is "like"? Brandon has a temper, and therefore Lyanna is responsible for his inability to control it? She has to marry a man she doesn't want to marry because her brother can't control himself and will be angry. Amazing, truly amazing.

If my sister suddenly vanished without a trace after some creep showed interest in her, I too would panic. If from my perspective it looked like the worst, and the guy responsible had enough connections to prevent him from facing legal consequences, then I would want to get a gun and blow that fucker's brains out!

But I would only be reacting this way because of my sister's disappearance.

It's like this: if a child tricks his parents into thinking he ran away and his parents get killed by a drunk driver while searching the neighborhood for him, whose fault is that? After all, the parents made their own choices?

Nobody's actions exist in a vacuum: everyone's choices effect everyone else. 

[kimim]

If my sister suddenly vanished without a trace after some creep showed interest in her, I too would panic. If from my perspective it looked like the worst, and the guy responsible had enough connections to prevent him from facing legal consequences, then I would want to get a gun and blow that fucker's brains out!

But I would only be reacting this way because of my sister's disappearance.

It's like this: if a child tricks his parents into thinking he ran away and his parents get killed by a drunk driver while searching the neighborhood for him, whose fault is that? After all, the parents made their own choices?

Nobody's actions exist in a vacuum: everyone's choices effect everyone else. 

Welll...in most developed nations, blowing people's brains out in revenge is frowned upon. I admit it's less so in Westeros, but Rhaegar is the crown prince, so some self control would have been useful. Having said that, with anyone but Aerys, Brandon would have survived, and the scandal would never have turned into civil war. The crown prince is married. The scandal involves both Targs and Starks. With a sane king, the two families might even commiserate with one another.

I think that the person who should be blamed here is Rhaegar, who knows how crazy his father is. I'm guessing that must have been one reason for his plans to call a council. When he elopes with Lyanna, he drops his plans for a council, and leaves a crazy, sadistic king in charge, to deal with the fallout.

Lyanna is different. She would have heard about the mad king, but might not know how crazy he is. From her pov, SHE was taking the risk. Her reputation would be ruined; she might be disowned; she would take the brunt of the reaction. That's not how it turned out, but she might not have known that.

[TimJames]

Welll...in most developed nations, blowing people's brains out in revenge is frowned upon. I admit it's less so in Westeros, but Rhaegar is the crown prince, so some self control would have been useful. Having said that, with anyone but Aerys, Brandon would have survived, and the scandal would never have turned into civil war. The crown prince is married. The scandal involves both Targs and Starks. With a sane king, the two families might even commiserate with one another.

I think that the person who should be blamed here is Rhaegar, who knows how crazy his father is. I'm guessing that must have been one reason for his plans to call a council. When he elopes with Lyanna, he drops his plans for a council, and leaves a crazy, sadistic king in charge, to deal with the fallout.

Lyanna is different. She would have heard about the mad king, but might not know how crazy he is. From her pov, SHE was taking the risk. Her reputation would be ruined; she might be disowned; she would take the brunt of the reaction. That's not how it turned out, but she might not have known that.

Normally if you think someone kidnapped your sister, you'd call the police and have your lawyer push for the harshest possible punishment. But if the person responsible is for all intents and purposes above the law (Maybe he's really rich? Maybe he's the son of the head of state?) then the only recourse is to take the law into your own hands.

Addressing the bolded part, potentially losing the love of your father and brothers (who loved and nurtured you since you were born) is not worth a fling with a married man whom you just met. 

[kimim]

..

Addressing the bolded part, potentially losing the love of your father and brothers (who loved and nurtured you since you were born) is not worth a fling with a married man whom you just met. 

ita it's not wise, to put it mildly, but I don't believe you can blame Brandon/Rickard's deaths and the ensuing civil war on her. That would be on Rhaegar.

[TimJames]

ita it's not wise, to put it mildly, but I don't believe you can blame Brandon/Rickard's deaths and the ensuing civil war on her. That would be on Rhaegar.

I personally believe Lyanna IS blameless in everything that happened ... but only because I also believe she was kidnapped and raped against her will. 

However, if she did run away willingly (as is the premise of this thread), then she would absolutely be to blame for all of the death even if she didn't intend for or expect it to happen. While Rhaegar is the chief culprit, that does not absolve Lyanna. 

Even if she didn't want or expect her family to be wiped out, she still should have known that running away from her responsibilities would hurt them. Lyanna was criminally negligent: she indifferently disregarded human life and the safety of people by failing to recognize unjustifiable risks associated with her contact. 

[SFDanny]

Every action causes a reaction. If Lyanna did as she was told (which BTW it's taught and forced apon every single female in that time frame) then Brandon wouldn't have reacted in such a way. Lyanna should have known her brother, just like how Ned knew his sister and so on. You don't pet the lion thinking it wont bite back; your not responsible for the lions reaction, but you did an action to make it react that way. If you knew your brother has a temper you wouldn't do something dumb to provoke him. Logically Lyanna would/should have said something or even wrote something to tame the wolf if that didn't work then you can blame it on Brandon not all the blame but most of it. Give the lion meat to tame it and if it still bites back hate it?

Three points. It is not true that ever single female is forced to marry who she is told. We are given the examples of Aegon V Targaryen and his wife, Prince Duncan and his wife, and Jaehaerys II Targaryen and his sister/wife. All these are precedents Lyanna and Rhaegar would know. In addition we are given such examples as Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling, and Tyrion Lannister and Tysha. Both matches for love. It is true that most marriages are arranged by the head of house, but it is not true that this is always the case. We also have the cases of the Blackfish and Prince Daeron Targaryen who refuse to marry the person chosen by their head of house. It may be Lyanna wanted to be part of this minority of men and women who got to do what they wanted in choosing a partner. One can criticize her choice, but it is a perfectly understandable thing to want, especially given Robert's character.

Secondly, it is outrageous to compare Brandon to a lion. A lion bites because is its nature to bite those it sees as food or as a threat. Brandon is a man who is responsible for his choices. If he reacts like the fool Hoster Tully calls him, then Brandon is responsible for those actions. Lastly, it is clear you didn't read my first post, or you would know I put forward the idea that Brandon, Rickard, and Ned all know Lyanna leaves willingly. There is no reason to leave a note for people you already have told you won't willingly marry the man they want you to.

 

[SFDanny]

If my sister suddenly vanished without a trace after some creep showed interest in her, I too would panic. If from my perspective it looked like the worst, and the guy responsible had enough connections to prevent him from facing legal consequences, then I would want to get a gun and blow that fucker's brains out!

But I would only be reacting this way because of my sister's disappearance.

It's like this: if a child tricks his parents into thinking he ran away and his parents get killed by a drunk driver while searching the neighborhood for him, whose fault is that? After all, the parents made their own choices?

Nobody's actions exist in a vacuum: everyone's choices effect everyone else. 

I would hope that if such a terrible thing happened to your sister your first thought would be for her safety. Yet, Brandon does not react in that way. He rides into the Red Keep and calls out for Rhaegar to "come out and die." Not a word demanding his sister back. Why? As I have said, I think it is because he knows his sister left willingly and he is angry with his sister as he is with Rhaegar. This is about the same issue we see over and over with Martin - the right of the head of house to arrange marriages, and the anger towards those who would deny or interfere in those rights. Do I really need to list the many examples of this?

Now, don't get me wrong. I think what Brandon did is stupid, but I don't think even his stupid action means he is responsible for his and his father's deaths. Aerys is the one responsible. He seizes on the opening Brandon gives him to kill a host of people he views as his enemies. He is the one who is to blame for these deaths. Not Brandon. Not Rickard. Not Rhaegar or Lyanna.

[purple-eyes]

Three points. It is not true that ever single female is forced to marry who she is told. We are given the examples of Aegon V Targaryen and his wife, Prince Duncan and his wife, and Jaehaerys II Targaryen and his sister/wife. All these are precedents Lyanna and Rhaegar would know. In addition we are given such examples as Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling, and Tyrion Lannister and Tysha. Both matches for love. It is true that most marriages are arranged by the head of house, but it is not true that this is always the case. We also have the cases of the Blackfish and Prince Daeron Targaryen who refuse to marry the person chosen by their head of house. It may be Lyanna wanted to be part of this minority of men and women who got to do what they wanted in choosing a partner. One can criticize her choice, but it is a perfectly understandable thing to want, especially given Robert's character.

Secondly, it is outrageous to compare Brandon to a lion. A lion bites because is its nature to bite those it sees as food or as a threat. Brandon is a man who is responsible for his choices. If he reacts like the fool Hoster Tully calls him, then Brandon is responsible for those actions. Lastly, it is clear you didn't read my first post, or you would know I put forward the idea that Brandon, Rickard, and Ned all know Lyanna leaves willingly. There is no reason to leave a note for people you already have told you won't willingly marry the man they want you to.

 

Sure, many people escaped their arranged marriages and followed their true love successfully without big issue, like you mentioned. 

If Lyanna and rhaegar did not cause any war or deaths, say, Aerys is good man and he talked with house stark nicely then everything was settled peacefully, then nobody can blame them because nothing bad happened. 

However, when something bad happened due to their eloping, then rhaegar and Lyanna should be blamed for sure. 

You made some mistakes in work, no bad result, then you are fine. 

You made same mistakes in work, however something bad happened, then you will be punished or fired. 

The only way Lyanna is blameless is that she was indeed kidnapped. 

In this case, Rhaegar had all the fault. 

If she eloped with Rhaegar, then both of them had fault. 

 

 

 

[TimJames]

I would hope that if such a terrible thing happened to your sister your first thought would be for her safety. Yet, Brandon does not react in that way. He rides into the Red Keep and calls out for Rhaegar to "come out and die." Not a word demanding his sister back. Why? As I have said, I think it is because he knows his sister left willingly and he is angry with his sister as he is with Rhaegar. This is about the same issue we see over and over with Martin - the right of the head of house to arrange marriages, and the anger towards those who would deny or interfere in those rights. Do I really need to list the many examples of this?

Now, don't get me wrong. I think what Brandon did is stupid, but I don't think even his stupid action means he is responsible for his and his father's deaths. Aerys is the one responsible. He seizes on the opening Brandon gives him to kill a host of people he views as his enemies. He is the one who is to blame for these deaths. Not Brandon. Not Rickard. Not Rhaegar or Lyanna.

Maybe Brandon thought it was already too late and that she was dead? Maybe he had the expectation that he would have to rescue Lyanna with bloodshed (a la Taken). Him not asking for Lyanna does not mean thought she was safe, or that he did not care about her. 

In fact, why the hell would he ask for her return? No kidnapper ever has returned their captive just because a loved one asked nicely. All the kidnappers who released their captives have done so either 1. because the captive's loved one paid a ransom or 2. because the kidnapper was overpowered by authorities. 

If my sister was kidnapped, my first instinct would be to do exactly what Brandon did: get a gun, head strait to the lowlife who abused her, and paint the pavement with his brains. 

[SFDanny]

Maybe Brandon thought it was already too late and that she was dead? Maybe he had the expectation that he would have to rescue Lyanna with bloodshed (a la Taken). Him not asking for Lyanna does not mean thought she was safe, or that he did not care about her. 

In fact, why the hell would he ask for her return? No kidnapper ever has returned their captive just because a loved one asked nicely. All the kidnappers who released their captives have done so either 1. because the captive's loved one paid a ransom or 2. because the kidnapper was overpowered by authorities. 

If my sister was kidnapped, my first instinct would be to do exactly what Brandon did: get a gun, head strait to the lowlife who abused her, and paint the pavement with his brains. 

Ned didn't think she was dead. Ned fought a war and the first thing he does when he is able to do so is to go get his sister. It's not Brandon's response. It is not just that Brandon doesn't say anything about Lyanna. He was at Harrenhal with Lyanna and Ned and Benjen. He knows Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar. He also likely knows what his sister's views are on Robert. Lyanna tells Ned what she thinks of Robert, why would you think this woman who has the same "wolf's blood" as Brandon would remain silent to either her Father or her elder brother if she will tell Ned? No, the woman who single handedly stops Howland's beating would stick up for herself. My read of the clues Martin leaves us is that Brandon knows Lyanna left willingly.

To the hypothetical about your sister, I can understand wanting to do violence to someone who hurts a loved one. I can't understand not putting the safety of the loved one first, over revenge. If that is one's agenda, then it really has nothing to do with loving one's sister. It is all about the hurt you feel. Or in this case the hurt Brandon feels to his pride.

[purple-eyes]

Ned didn't think she was dead. Ned fought a war and the first thing he does when he is able to do so is to go get his sister. It's not Brandon's response. It is not just that Brandon doesn't say anything about Lyanna. He was at Harrenhal with Lyanna and Ned and Benjen. He knows Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar. He also likely knows what his sister's views are on Robert. Lyanna tells Ned what she thinks of Robert, why would you think this woman who has the same "wolf's blood" as Brandon would remain silent to either her Father or her elder brother if she will tell Ned? No, the woman who single handedly stops Howland's beating would stick up for herself. My read of the clues Martin leaves us is that Brandon knows Lyanna left willingly.

To the hypothetical about your sister, I can understand wanting to do violence to someone who hurts a loved one. I can't understand not putting the safety of the loved one first, over revenge. If that is one's agenda, then it really has nothing to do with loving one's sister. It is all about the hurt you feel. Or in this case the hurt Brandon feels to his pride.

By all accounts, Lyanna was "kidnapped" on "swordpoints". Rhaegar "fell upon" her and "carried her off" with the help of KG. 

So it more likely that Brandon indeed thought this is kidnapping and raping. 

 

But sure, Brandon may know his sister desired Rhaegar or even know she left willingly with rhaegar. You can also imagine Lyanna already fought with her family badly and yelled loudly at home: "I do not want to marry Robert! I hate this manwhore! I love my dragon prince!" this sounds like what she will do, after all, she dropped wine on her younger brother's head in a public feast just because he laughed at her when she sniffled.

But still Brandon had good reason to blame Rhaegar seduced his sister and dishonored his house. Just like Viserys exiled daemon although Rhaenyra said she loved him and wanted to marry him. 

No matter Lyanna is willing or not, rhaegar is still committing a crime and shamed House stark and his wife and his own house. if Lyanna is willing, then she also shamed House Stark. 

Let us say Lyanna told brandon: bother, I tell you, I am going to elope with this dragon prince some day!

Then she is innocent and blameless? Or rhaegar is innocent and blameless?

In fact, rhaegar may likely tell Elia he will run off with Lyanna, will this make him blameless too?

It does not matter at all. 

What they did still put their family in great danger. And eventually made a disaster. They definitely should share the blame. 

In fact, even worse. If Lyanna declared she disliked robert, loved rhaegar and/or wanted to elope with this married man, I can not believe Brandon or Ned or Rickard will not try their best to persuade her to drop this idea by telling her how dangerous and dishonorable this is. But Lyanna still eloped. This means she really did not care the opinion and feeling of her family. No wonder she never tried to contact her family in almost two years. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SilentDystopia]

Three points. It is not true that ever single female is forced to marry who she is told. We are given the examples of Aegon V Targaryen and his wife, Prince Duncan and his wife, and Jaehaerys II Targaryen and his sister/wife. All these are precedents Lyanna and Rhaegar would know. In addition we are given such examples as Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling, and Tyrion Lannister and Tysha. Both matches for love. It is true that most marriages are arranged by the head of house, but it is not true that this is always the case. We also have the cases of the Blackfish and Prince Daeron Targaryen who refuse to marry the person chosen by their head of house. It may be Lyanna wanted to be part of this minority of men and women who got to do what they wanted in choosing a partner. One can criticize her choice, but it is a perfectly understandable thing to want, especially given Robert's character.

Secondly, it is outrageous to compare Brandon to a lion. A lion bites because is its nature to bite those it sees as food or as a threat. Brandon is a man who is responsible for his choices. If he reacts like the fool Hoster Tully calls him, then Brandon is responsible for those actions. Lastly, it is clear you didn't read my first post, or you would know I put forward the idea that Brandon, Rickard, and Ned all know Lyanna leaves willingly. There is no reason to leave a note for people you already have told you won't willingly marry the man they want you to.

 

Maybe I used the wrong word, forced. What I'm trying to say is marriage is doing a duty to and for your house. Marriage is about power not love, but sometimes there is love. If you are a Highborn from any of the houses, minus the royal family, you have a duty to marry into another house or even one of the bannerman house, to form alliances and to keep your family in power. Love, in that time frame, is 2nd or maybe 3rd behind honor. Having daughters to give away helps the head of the house because they will then marry to another house and produce heirs. That is the main reason to have daughers, just like to have sons is so you can have more power and pass down your family name. It's how things were.

All that you named that married out of love, Aegon V, Prince Duncan, and Jaehaerys II all were 1. Targaryens and the Royal family. and 2. didn't run off, they told the world about their love and married. What did Lyanna and Rhaegar do? Ran off without telling the world nothing and so Roberts Rebellion begins.

And please tell me what happened to Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling? Tyrion and Tysha, while they married out of love what did it cost in the end? Robb lost a war and his life , Tysha was raped and Tyrion a bitter man. Blackfish lost relations with his brother. This is why in that time frame doing your duty is better then jumping ship to the loveboat. 

On to the comparison. I didn't really compare him I was just giving an example of "you shouldn't piss off the angry guy, when you know he is angry" Lions just came to my head because I don't know, I love lions! 

If Brandon was a man who was hot-headed and didn't think things through all the time,she should have expected he would react negatively to her eloping. She didn't think about that though and so she gets some blame in the matter of causing the war, including Rhaegar of course. I'm not saying that Brandon holds no responsibilities; of course he did, I am saying that Lyanna and Rhaeger are also responsible for the war that happened.

[purple-eyes]

Ned didn't think she was dead. Ned fought a war and the first thing he does when he is able to do so is to go get his sister. It's not Brandon's response. It is not just that Brandon doesn't say anything about Lyanna. He was at Harrenhal with Lyanna and Ned and Benjen. He knows Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar. He also likely knows what his sister's views are on Robert. Lyanna tells Ned what she thinks of Robert, why would you think this woman who has the same "wolf's blood" as Brandon would remain silent to either her Father or her elder brother if she will tell Ned? No, the woman who single handedly stops Howland's beating would stick up for herself. My read of the clues Martin leaves us is that Brandon knows Lyanna left willingly.

To the hypothetical about your sister, I can understand wanting to do violence to someone who hurts a loved one. I can't understand not putting the safety of the loved one first, over revenge. If that is one's agenda, then it really has nothing to do with loving one's sister. It is all about the hurt you feel. Or in this case the hurt Brandon feels to his pride.

Another thing is, Barri said: Rhaegar loved Lyanna, thousands of people died for it. 

He did not say: Brandon behaved like a fool, thousands of people died for it. 

And he did not say: Aerys was a mad man, thousands of people died for it. 

Apparently, he indeed feels rhaegar should be blamed (and lyanna if eloping) for this war. 

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

Another thing is, Barri said: Rhaegar loved Lyanna, thousands of people died for it. 

He did not say: Brandon behaved like a fool, thousands of people died for it. 

And he did not say: Aerys was a mad man, thousands of people died for it. 

Apparently, he indeed feels rhaegar should be blamed (and lyanna if eloping) for this war. 

 

 

 

Lots of real life people believe in post hoc ergo propter hoc arguments, so it is not surprising to find a fictional character who does as well. It doesn't make it any less illogical.

[SFDanny]

Maybe I used the wrong word, forced. What I'm trying to say is marriage is doing a duty to and for your house. Marriage is about power not love, but sometimes there is love. If you are a Highborn from any of the houses, minus the royal family, you have a duty to marry into another house or even one of the bannerman house, to form alliances and to keep your family in power. Love, in that time frame, is 2nd or maybe 3rd behind honor. Having daughters to give away helps the head of the house because they will then marry to another house and produce heirs. That is the main reason to have daughers, just like to have sons is so you can have more power and pass down your family name. It's how things were.

That's a fair summation of what was expected of women in Westeros. I wouldn't dispute that. Some characters in Martin's world did dispute that that was what had to be the lot of women. I'm saying Lyanna looks to have been one of those who did not accept the normal do-as-your-father-tells-you life. If you think she was wrong in rebelling, then that is your take on what she should do, but Martin doesn't make these choices simple.

All that you named that married out of love, Aegon V, Prince Duncan, and Jaehaerys II all were 1. Targaryens and the Royal family. and 2. didn't run off, they told the world about their love and married. What did Lyanna and Rhaegar do? Ran off without telling the world nothing and so Roberts Rebellion begins.

All of Egg's children, and Egg himself had choices others did not. Egg allowed his children to marry for love, or not marry for love, as they chose, even though he had marriage plans for them himself. No doubt this was all unusual, but my point is they showed their world there was another way and perhaps living lives without love isn't always the best thing. As to running off, Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't have the choices Egg and his children did. Aerys would not allow it, and neither would Rickard Stark. They both had other agendas than their children's happiness. Perhaps you are right and those agendas were more important, but I think we are supposed to ask if they were.

And please tell me what happened to Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling? Tyrion and Tysha, while they married out of love what did it cost in the end? Robb lost a war and his life , Tysha was raped and Tyrion a bitter man. Blackfish lost relations with his brother. This is why in that time frame doing your duty is better then jumping ship to the loveboat. 

Terrible things happened to Robb and Jeyne, and to Tyrion and Tysha. Does that mean they deserved their fates, or they were wrong in embracing love where they found it? I feel very uncomfortable in saying Lord Tywin Lannister and Lord Walder Frey were just doing what society told them was right. They had to stand firm in support of the Lord's rights didn't they? I don't think most readers would say they did. Or think Robb, Jeyne, Tyrion, and Tysha were to blame for their fates.

On to the comparison. I didn't really compare him I was just giving an example of "you shouldn't piss off the angry guy, when you know he is angry" Lions just came to my head because I don't know, I love lions! 

If Brandon was a man who was hot-headed and didn't think things through all the time,she should have expected he would react negatively to her eloping. She didn't think about that though and so she gets some blame in the matter of causing the war, including Rhaegar of course. I'm not saying that Brandon holds no responsibilities; of course he did, I am saying that Lyanna and Rhaeger are also responsible for the war that happened.

I love lions as well. Magnificent animals. I just think they are a poor comparison with people. Probably because I tend to think the lions better than many people in the choices they make, but that is just me.

To your last point, I agree and I don't. I think Lyanna should anticipate her brother's anger. That doesn't mean she is responsible for his actions, but she should know he will get angry and try to craft a strategy of minimizing the effect of not only Brandon's anger, but Rickard's, and Ned's, and Robert's - and Aerys's. I think that is precisely what Rhaegar and Lyanna did. They left and went into hiding so anger could not rule the day, or so they thought. What they didn't anticipate was just how stupid Brandon's reaction would be, or how murderous Aerys would turn out to be. They were wrong in their underestimation of what could happen, but they aren't the cause of those actions. The people who did them are.

[WSmith84]

That's a fair summation of what was expected of women in Westeros. I wouldn't dispute that. Some characters in Martin's world did dispute that that was what had to be the lot of women. I'm saying Lyanna looks to have been one of those who did not accept the normal do-as-your-father-tells-you life. If you think she was wrong in rebelling, then that is your take on what she should do, but Martin doesn't make these choices simple.

All of Egg's children, and Egg himself had choices others did not. Egg allowed his children to marry for love, or not marry for love, as they chose, even though he had marriage plans for them himself. No doubt this was all unusual, but my point is they showed their world there was another way and perhaps living lives without love isn't always the best thing. As to running off, Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't have the choices Egg and his children did. Aerys would not allow it, and neither would Rickard Stark. They both had other agendas than their children's happiness. Perhaps you are right and those agendas were more important, but I think we are supposed to ask if they were.

All of Aegon's children... barring Rhaelle, who had to go marry Lyonel Baratheon's heir to make up for her brother's broken betrothal. And to say Aegon 'allowed' them is a bit untruthful. He did everything he could to have the marriages undone, including making Prince Duncan give up the throne. And Aegon had to face a rebellion for his children's choices, as well as losing all the potential support the arranged marriages he had organised would have brought, making it more difficult for him to push through his reforms.

Also, Robb and Jeyne weren't really a love match. They might have come to love each other, but they married because Robb felt guilty about deflowering her. Nothing to do with love.

I do sympathise with nobles being forced to marry someone that they perhaps don't like, but... these people live better than 99.99% of the population (who are probably not all about marrying for love either). And wars are fought over the choices of nobles, and it's the smallfolk who suffer in those wars. That gives the nobility a fair amount of responsibility in exchange for their fabulous lives, which unfortunately includes marrying to make alliances. If Aegon's children had married like they were supposed to, they might have been unhappy. But their would have been one less rebellion, and Aegon might have been able to push more of his reforms through.

[purple-eyes]

Lots of real life people believe in post hoc ergo propter hoc arguments, so it is not surprising to find a fictional character who does as well. It doesn't make it any less illogical.

Yes, a lot of people make post hoc ergo propter hoc argument, but a lot of more people can make logical judgement, why do you think he is making an illogical argument?

Isn't this a illogical argument of yours?

How did you decide Barri is making a bad judgement in stead of a good one?

 

 

[purple-eyes]

That's a fair summation of what was expected of women in Westeros. I wouldn't dispute that. Some characters in Martin's world did dispute that that was what had to be the lot of women. I'm saying Lyanna looks to have been one of those who did not accept the normal do-as-your-father-tells-you life. If you think she was wrong in rebelling, then that is your take on what she should do, but Martin doesn't make these choices simple.

All of Egg's children, and Egg himself had choices others did not. Egg allowed his children to marry for love, or not marry for love, as they chose, even though he had marriage plans for them himself. No doubt this was all unusual, but my point is they showed their world there was another way and perhaps living lives without love isn't always the best thing. As to running off, Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't have the choices Egg and his children did. Aerys would not allow it, and neither would Rickard Stark. They both had other agendas than their children's happiness. Perhaps you are right and those agendas were more important, but I think we are supposed to ask if they were.

Terrible things happened to Robb and Jeyne, and to Tyrion and Tysha. Does that mean they deserved their fates, or they were wrong in embracing love where they found it? I feel very uncomfortable in saying Lord Tywin Lannister and Lord Walder Frey were just doing what society told them was right. They had to stand firm in support of the Lord's rights didn't they? I don't think most readers would say they did. Or think Robb, Jeyne, Tyrion, and Tysha were to blame for their fates.

I love lions as well. Magnificent animals. I just think they are a poor comparison with people. Probably because I tend to think the lions better than many people in the choices they make, but that is just me.

To your last point, I agree and I don't. I think Lyanna should anticipate her brother's anger. That doesn't mean she is responsible for his actions, but she should know he will get angry and try to craft a strategy of minimizing the effect of not only Brandon's anger, but Rickard's, and Ned's, and Robert's - and Aerys's. I think that is precisely what Rhaegar and Lyanna did. They left and went into hiding so anger could not rule the day, or so they thought. What they didn't anticipate was just how stupid Brandon's reaction would be, or how murderous Aerys would turn out to be. They were wrong in their underestimation of what could happen, but they aren't the cause of those actions. The people who did them are.

You are really trying hard to separate Lyanna's action from Brandon's action. 

As if they are two independent events. No they are not. They are closely related. 

One led to another one.

Yes, Brandon was behaving silly and rashly. He could have done it better. But this does not change the relationship of these two events. 

Brandon was not killed by some outlaw on his way, he was not dead due to dropping from horse accidentally. 

He died because Lyanna's action put him into a high-risk dangerous situation which he would not have been there if Lyanna stayed in line. 

Brandon had his share of fault for his own fate, However, Lyanna had too. 

By running off willingly, Lyanna broke the potential political alliance, made his family have to deal with mad king, made King feel suspicious that they are doing something against him (which makes sense, honestly), thus put her whole house into danger, unluckily it ended really bad, so surely she should be blamed. 

Just like robb, he followed his heart and married Jenny, then he put his people into danger because this significantly damaged his alliance and installed enemies. If he won the war and Frey did not act, then Robb is fine.

But bad thing happened, then Robb Stark should be also be blamed. 

 

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

All of Aegon's children... barring Rhaelle, who had to go marry Lyonel Baratheon's heir to make up for her brother's broken betrothal. And to say Aegon 'allowed' them is a bit untruthful. He did everything he could to have the marriages undone, including making Prince Duncan give up the throne. And Aegon had to face a rebellion for his children's choices, as well as losing all the potential support the arranged marriages he had organised would have brought, making it more difficult for him to push through his reforms.

Also, Robb and Jeyne weren't really a love match. They might have come to love each other, but they married because Robb felt guilty about deflowering her. Nothing to do with love.

I do sympathise with nobles being forced to marry someone that they perhaps don't like, but... these people live better than 99.99% of the population (who are probably not all about marrying for love either). And wars are fought over the choices of nobles, and it's the smallfolk who suffer in those wars. That gives the nobility a fair amount of responsibility in exchange for their fabulous lives, which unfortunately includes marrying to make alliances. If Aegon's children had married like they were supposed to, they might have been unhappy. But their would have been one less rebellion, and Aegon might have been able to push more of his reforms through.

What we know of Rhaelle's feelings is next to nothing. We don't know if she agrees to this match or not, but you are right to point out that we have nothing to say she married for love, and much to point out she married for political needs of her family. I hope she found a better Baratheon than Robert in her marriage. My point about the examples set by Egg's other children I think is valid. There are people who marry for love instead of for the expansion of political power. Lyanna and Rhaegar would have known these examples.

Robb and Jeyne seem very much in love to me. That Robb felt a duty to Jeyne does not change that.

Martin wants us to weigh the arguments on both sides of this question, I think, and it would be equally wrong to not see the importance of the political alliances these arranged marriages can provide. Judging the particular circumstances of each case is really what I think Martin wants from his readers. Not a simple this is right, and this is wrong. There  may be no right answer in some cases; only the lesser of two evils.