Would Ned Be upset with Lyanna?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think that he should had been but I don't see it. Ned has a certain amount of hypocrisy and he would most likely feel bad about Lyanna but being upset I don't think so, especially after seeing how he blamed her "wolf blood" for her death.

[SFDanny]

Yes, a lot of people make post hoc ergo propter hoc argument, but a lot of more people can make logical judgement, why do you think he is making an illogical argument?

Isn't this a illogical argument of yours?

How did you decide Barri is making a bad judgement in stead of a good one?

You are really trying hard to separate Lyanna's action from Brandon's action. 

As if they are two independent events. No they are not. They are closely related. 

One led to another one.

Yes, Brandon was behaving silly and rashly. He could have done it better. But this does not change the relationship of these two events. 

Brandon was not killed by some outlaw on his way, he was not dead due to dropping from horse accidentally. 

He died because Lyanna's action put him into a high-risk dangerous situation which he would not have been there if Lyanna stayed in line. 

Brandon had his share of fault for his own fate, However, Lyanna had too. 

By running off willingly, Lyanna broke the potential political alliance, made his family have to deal with mad king, made King feel suspicious that they are doing something against him (which makes sense, honestly), thus put her whole house into danger, unluckily it ended really bad, so surely she should be blamed. 

Just like robb, he followed his heart and married Jenny, then he put his people into danger because this significantly damaged his alliance and installed enemies. If he won the war and Frey did not act, then Robb is fine.

But bad thing happened, then Robb Stark should be also be blamed. 

You have yet to show how Lyanna caused Brandon's action, and therefore how she is to blame for it. There is no mind control in the relationship we know of, and she is far away from Brandon, so she can't have physically have forced him to ride to the Red Keep and call for Rhaegar to come out and die. Instead you rely on the post hoc ergo propter hoc argument that because Brandon's action follows Lyanna's, therefore Lyanna caused Brandon's stupidity. It is a classic and wrong assumption to think the timing of something means causation, and it is a mistake you seemed determined to make. That Ser Barristan does the same, doesn't make it more logical. If I'm wrong, please show me where Ser Barristan or you provide an explanation other than timing for blaming Rhaegar and Lyanna for Brandon's actions, or for Aerys's actions as well.

Yes, Lyanna broke the marriage contract if she went willingly as I think she did. The breaking of a marriage contract does not mean a war must follow. In fact, the war doesn't even follow the murders of Rickard and Brandon. It is not until Aerys demands Ned and Robert's heads that Jon Arryn raises his banners in rebellion. The cause of war is these two acts, by Aerys and Jon Arryn. The background of the conflict includes many things, some of which predate Lyanna and Rhaegar going away together.

[purple-eyes]

 

You have yet to show how Lyanna caused Brandon's action, and therefore how she is to blame for it. There is no mind control in the relationship we know of, and she is far away from Brandon, so she can't have physically have forced him to ride to the Red Keep and call for Rhaegar to come out and die. Instead you rely on the post hoc ergo propter hoc argument that because Brandon's action follows Lyanna's, therefore Lyanna caused Brandon's stupidity. It is a classic and wrong assumption to think the timing of something means causation, and it is a mistake you seemed determined to make. That Ser Barristan does the same, doesn't make it more logical. If I'm wrong, please show me where Ser Barristan or you provide an explanation other than timing for blaming Rhaegar and Lyanna for Brandon's actions, or for Aerys's actions as well.

Yes, Lyanna broke the marriage contract if she went willingly as I think she did. The breaking of a marriage contract does not mean a war must follow. In fact, the war doesn't even follow the murders of Rickard and Brandon. It is not until Aerys demands Ned and Robert's heads that Jon Arryn raises his banners in rebellion. The cause of war is these two acts, by Aerys and Jon Arryn. The background of the conflict includes many things, some of which predate Lyanna and Rhaegar going away together.

If you think brandon and Lyanna's actions only had a relationship based on the time order (like breakfast and lunch) , and Lyanna's action is not the reason or cause of Brandon's action, then I am sure more people will disagree with you. 

Why did Brandon do what he did? Because he reacted for Lyanna. Simple and straightforward. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If you think brandon and Lyanna's actions only had a relationship based on the time order (like breakfast and lunch) , and Lyanna's action is not the reason or cause of Brandon's action, then I am sure more people will disagree with you. 

Why did Brandon do what he did? Because he reacted for Lyanna. Simple and straightforward. 

No according to RLfanboys Brandon should had waited until the end. He should had waited either for Lyanna or her dead body and then he should had went to ask for answers.

[WSmith84]

Robb and Jeyne seem very much in love to me. That Robb felt a duty to Jeyne does not change that.

They may have been in love, but it wasn't why they married. They married because Robb dishonoured her. That they might have loved each other is nice, but I think Robb would have married her regardless.

[SFDanny]

If you think brandon and Lyanna's actions only had a relationship based on the time order (like breakfast and lunch) , and Lyanna's action is not the reason or cause of Brandon's action, then I am sure more people will disagree with you. 

Why did Brandon do what he did? Because he reacted for Lyanna. Simple and straightforward. 

That Brandon does what he does in response to Lyanna and Rhaegar running way, is not in dispute. That Lyanna and Rhaegar caused his action is. The point of the post hoc fallacy is that one confuses causation with timing, not that one cannot relate to the other. Once again, you don't show how Lyanna controls Brandon's actions. He is a "man grown" who makes his own decisions, and he is responsible for them. Lyanna is not.

I notice you don't actually dispute the causes of the war I listed above, and who is responsible for them.

[SFDanny]

No according to RLfanboys Brandon should had waited until the end. He should had waited either for Lyanna or her dead body and then he should had went to ask for answers.

Snark is always helpful, thank you so very much.

Beyond the snark, what you say isn't right. I pointed out when Brandon rode into the Red Keep he doesn't demand Lyanna back. He wants Rhaegar to come out and die. I actually would be fine with a demand for his sister. That would be something that does not give Aerys an opening to kill Brandon and his father, and almost all of his companions, and his father's companions. By threatening the Prince of the Blood, Brandon plays right into Aerys's hands. It's just a stupid thing to do, and I think Hoster Tully has the right of it in calling him a fool. Unfortunately,  Brandon seems to want to settle every dispute with a duel.

Now, as I said earlier, that doesn't mean Brandon is the cause of his own death and the deaths of those others. Aerys is. He gives the order and he is responsible.

[Geddus]

I pointed out when Brandon rode into the Red Keep he doesn't demand Lyanna back. He wants Rhaegar to come out and die.

But we don't know that, it's not like Jaime gave a detailed account of what happened.

It's possible that Brandon entered the Red Keep sword in hand, screaming for blood, sure, but I think it's equally possible he tried to talk to the king to no avail and eventually lost his temper. To be honest, the second scenario seems far more likely to me, but we don't know, yet. Hopefully we will soon.

[purple-eyes]

That Brandon does what he does in response to Lyanna and Rhaegar running way, is not in dispute. That Lyanna and Rhaegar caused his action is. The point of the post hoc fallacy is that one confuses causation with timing, not that one cannot relate to the other. Once again, you don't show how Lyanna controls Brandon's actions. He is a "man grown" who makes his own decisions, and he is responsible for them. Lyanna is not.

I notice you don't actually dispute the causes of the war I listed above, and who is responsible for them.

I think Aerys should have more responsibility for the beginning of the war. Jon of course started the rebellion but he had good reason. 

(by your logic Jon is fully responsible for the war, because it sounds like you will think his action only has a time relationship with Aerys like breakfast and Lunch)

Aerys is the most powerful man of the kingdom and he brutally killed many people plus only nephew and heir of Jon, then he wanted to kill Ned and Robert, so I think Jon had good reason to raise his banners. 

About Lyanna, I do not think she is directly responsible for the war. Nobody fought for her, not even Robert. 

But she is surely (partially) responsible for the fate of her father and brother and 200 northern riders.  

However, Rhaegar had a big fault here. As the second most important man in the country and the igniter of this war, he disappeared for one year and let the war spread. Seriously, what type of crown prince is this? 

 

 

 

 

[SilentDystopia]

I think Aerys should have more responsibility for the beginning of the war. Jon of course started the rebellion but he had good reason. 

(by your logic Jon is fully responsible for the war, because it sounds like you will think his action only has a time relationship with Aerys like breakfast and Lunch)

Aerys is the most powerful man of the kingdom and he brutally killed many people plus only nephew and heir of Jon, then he wanted to kill Ned and Robert, so I think Jon had good reason to raise his banners. 

About Lyanna, I do not think she is directly responsible for the war. Nobody fought for her, not even Robert. 

But she is surely (partially) responsible for the fate of her father and brother and 200 northern riders.  

However, Rhaegar had a big fault here. As the second most important man in the country and the igniter of this war, he disappeared for one year and let the war spread. Seriously, what type of crown prince is this? 

 

 

 

 

The kind many in the book(and some fans) thought was great to even think "the wrong man came back from the trident" xD

[SFDanny]

I think Aerys should have more responsibility for the beginning of the war. Jon of course started the rebellion but he had good reason. 

(by your logic Jon is fully responsible for the war, because it sounds like you will think his action only has a time relationship with Aerys like breakfast and Lunch)

Aerys is the most powerful man of the kingdom and he brutally killed many people plus only nephew and heir of Jon, then he wanted to kill Ned and Robert, so I think Jon had good reason to raise his banners. 

About Lyanna, I do not think she is directly responsible for the war. Nobody fought for her, not even Robert. 

But she is surely (partially) responsible for the fate of her father and brother and 200 northern riders.  

However, Rhaegar had a big fault here. As the second most important man in the country and the igniter of this war, he disappeared for one year and let the war spread. Seriously, what type of crown prince is this? 

We are looking for who caused the rebellion, and who was the cause of the deaths of Brandon, Rickard, and the rest of the men killed with them. So, yes, Jon Arryn raising his banners in rebellion is the immediate cause of the war. He has a choice in either sending Aerys Ned and Robert's heads or starting the rebellion. He chooses rebellion. I agree with you he had many good reasons to do so, but it is his choice.

Among the reasons he chose to do so, I would think would include the murder of his heir Elbert Arryn along side of Brandon and Rickard, but he does not act until he receives Aerys's demand. That maybe more tactical on his part than anything else. Meaning he just wasn't ready yet to call his banners when Brandon, Rickard, and Elbert were killed, but intended to do so from that point on.

While all of this is true, one should not forget that Aerys also thought he had good reasons to do as he did. He saw traitors gathering to overthrow his rule. While he was certainly paranoid about such things, it doesn't mean he also wasn't right. With the death of the dragons the fundamental balance of power had shifted in Westerosi politics, and it looks as if Aerys's mental instabilities only served to speed that imbalance into crises. This is what I'd call an important context for the rebellion. While understanding this context, it is also silly to say the death of the dragons caused Robert's rebellion, or caused Brandon's death.

Another act that forms the context of the rebellion is Rhaegar and Lyanna running away together, or Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna, in which the High Lord's right to form marriage contracts is challenged by the Crown Prince, done maybe with the aid of Lyanna. I have no problem with acknowledging this as a factor that heightens the tensions of the balance of power. It is however, while acknowledging this context, silly once again to say Rhaegar and Lyanna caused the rebellion, or Rhaegar and Lyanna cause Brandon's death.

What I have a problem with is the simplistic assignment of blame to parties for acts done by others. So when you assign blame for Brandon's and Rickard's deaths to Rhaegar and Lyanna, when we know it is Aerys who gives the order, and we have absolutely nothing to show Rhaegar and Lyanna had any influence whatsoever in that act, then I think your argument falls apart and is totally without merit. It becomes an assignment of blame based on what you don't like, instead of what is set out in the books.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

I think he'd probably forgive her. It's always annoyed me to be honest, how he doesn't show the slightest hint of resentment towards either Lyanna or Rhaegar, because, if they eloped then they are absolutely, at least in part, to blame for what happened afterwards. Why wouldn't he be angry? 

[ASOIAF_Ali]

 

No according to RLfanboys Brandon should had waited until the end. He should had waited either for Lyanna or her dead body and then he should had went to ask for answers.

I don't understand all the Brandon blaming, I mean, what was he supposed to do? I know for a fact, that if it was my sister that I thought had been kidnapped, I would probably react in the exact same way. Who wouldn't, really? 

[SFDanny]

 

I don't understand all the Brandon blaming, I mean, what was he supposed to do? I know for a fact, that if it was my sister that I thought had been kidnapped, I would probably react in the exact same way. Who wouldn't, really? 

Well, we know Hoster Tully wouldn't have reacted in the same way. He calls Brandon a "gallant fool." I see no evidence Rickard sanctioned Brandon's action, and I've got to believe he would have come up with a better idea himself. Jon Arryn certainly has the brains to sit back until he is ready to call his banners before going to war. On and on, anyone with any sense would have done, and did do something differently than Brandon. Brandon's words gave Aerys the pretext to throw Brandon and his friends in the Black Cells and to call their fathers to King's Landing, putting them in his power. You can't get much stupider than that.

[Geddus]

I think he'd probably forgive her. It's always annoyed me to be honest, how he doesn't show the slightest hint of resentment towards either Lyanna or Rhaegar, because, if they eloped then they are absolutely, at least in part, to blame for what happened afterwards. Why wouldn't he be angry? 

He doesn't show any ill feelings towards Aerys, either, and I really doubt he liked him. I don't think it means anything.

[WhitewolfStark]

If Rhaegar had won, Ned would have been executed as a traitor to the crown. He wouldn't be alive long enough to learn of Lyanna's POV or see her before she dies.

Benjen would have been made castellan of Winterfell to Robb, who would be the Lord of Winterfell, but raised in King's Landing away from Catelyn--who would be married off to a loyalist house in the Riverlands most likely (perhaps Houses Goodbrook or Mooton?). Catelyn is rarely permitted the right to visit her son until he's grown and a confirmed Targaryen loyalist. The Starks lose the Lord Paramountcy and the Wardenship, and most likely a good chunk of their lands, leaving them Winterfell, Wintertown, and a bit of land around that that has been salted and had its structures burned to serve as a reminder for what happens to those who support traitors. Ditto for the Tullys--with House Darry most likely getting the Paramountcy of the Riverlands. The Eyrie is likely given to that cadet branch of House Arryn that lives in Gulltown. Renly is made Lord of Storm's End and also drug to King's Landing to be raised to be loyal. Stannis is forced to take the Black. Baratheons lose the Paramountcy and Wardenship of the Stormlands in favor of the Conningtons or some other loyalist Stormlord.

Essentially the fate of what happened to Houses Darry & Goodbrook after Robert's Rebellion, or House Osgrey after the First Blackfyre Rebellion, but on a bigger scale.

[WhitewolfStark]

He doesn't show any ill feelings towards Aerys, either, and I really doubt he liked him. I don't think it means anything.

Agreed. What point would there be in hating those who are dead?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

The funny thing is that I wasn't reffering to you, if I did I would had used your name. I am talking about some of the RLshipers in general.

How exactly we learn that Brandon screamed? Because Jaime said it. Can we be sure about that? No. In order for him to be able to tell the truth it would be if he was there when Brandon allegedly said it. Either outside the Red Keep or a bunch or armed guys were able to get to the Red Keep and find the King with no one to stop them. After what we know about Aerys neither seems possible to me.

[SFDanny]

The funny thing is that I wasn't reffering to you, if I did I would had used your name. I am talking about some of the RLshipers in general.

Regardless to whom you specifically were referring to, myself, or a generalized group of people you referred to as "RL fanboys" it was a snarky comment the type of which I find extremely unhelpful in discussion, so I said so. I still think such remarks unhelpful in trying to talk about much of anything.

How exactly we learn that Brandon screamed? Because Jaime said it. Can we be sure about that? No. In order for him to be able to tell the truth it would be if he was there when Brandon allegedly said it. Either outside the Red Keep or a bunch or armed guys were able to get to the Red Keep and find the King with no one to stop them. After what we know about Aerys neither seems possible to me.

Here is Jaime's quote:

"He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me." (ACoK 599)

Notice he says "into the Red Keep." Is there a reason you think the heirs to the North and the Vale would be denied entrance to the Red Keep along with three other men of noble birth? We are not talking about a personal conference with Aerys. We are talking about entrance to the the Red Keep by people who one would think might have messages of import. The fact they are armed wouldn't stopped them from getting this far.

Nor is it unlikely Jaime was there. He is supposed to be part of the personal guard to the king. If he is not on duty guarding the king himself, the Red Keep is still one of the places one would expect Ser Jaime to be. Why would it be unusual for him to have heard Brandon "shouting" if that's what he did?

Not only is there no reason to doubt the account on the face of it, but Jaime tells is to Catelyn in a conversation in which they have both pledged to tell the truth. And they do so about all kinds of things including Jaime admitting to throwing Bran from a tower window. Why would this bit of ancient history be something Jaime lied about?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

I know the quote I have read the books more than one time. Thank you.

So you really believe that the same Aerys we know about would had allowed a bunch of armed men so close to him? Seriously?