Sansa and the Giants - an analysis and prediction based on foreshadowing of Sansa's arc in the Vale

[Scorpion92]

Hadn't considered that yet, but not without possibilities. Yes, I think Mychel will be one of those who falls.

The Mya Stone tomboy - Mychel Redfort backstory and Lothor's interest in Mya Stone has that Nibelingenlied feel about it. Sigurd falls for ex-Valkyrie turned shieldmaiden Byrnhilde, promises to wed her, but ends up marrying another; then Sigurd helps another man in winning Brynhilde by wearing his armor and pretending to be the other man who's besotted with Brynhilde. When Brynhilde finds out, she reveals her husband that Sigurd took his liberties with her, and Sigurd ends up dead.

so you are suggesting Lothor Brune will slay Mychel? I think everyone in the Vale knows Mychel deflowered Mya, but maybe some future confrontation between Mychel and Mya will result in Lothor killing him?

And since Lothor is Littlefinger's ally it might be a first huge confrontation between Baelish and Lords Declarant. Lord Redfort will probably demand execution of both Mya and Lothor, and Sansa might play a big role here. I dunno.

It is just Timmett is unmarried at this point, and his future conquest and rule of the Vale will be shaky, so story-wise it would make sense for him to marry the daughter of the most powerful lord of the Vale who might help him to bring into fold all other survived noble houses.

But to be honest, it won't matter too much by the end of the saga, because forces of the Vale under Timmett would be summoned by Tyrion to fight on Daenerys' side first in Dance with Dragons, then in the Battle of Dawn, and I am not sure who survives, and who doesn't at the end, I think Lord Royce and his sons will die in the coming battles, and Royce's daughter will give Timmett the absolute control over the Vale. Timmett considers himself of a First Men descent, therefore he will reject Arryn name even though his mother is probably an Arryn. He probably hates Andal culture and everything that comes with it (knighthood, chivalry, etc.). 

But House Royce is like a Vale royalty, they descend from First Men and they used to rule the Vale as First Men before Andal invasion. They are still very powerful which shows their strength even after thousands of years of Andals controlling the region. Their lord even wears a bronze armor with ancient First Men runestones. That is why I argue that Timmett will marry Lord Royce's daughter so he and his kids will have a claim on the Vale as FIRST MEN kings.

I actually foresee First Men culture coming back to all regions of Westeros, which will bring back the Old Gods to whole Westeros,and therefore, power to Bran and House Stark. Theon will be a huge catalyst for that with ironborn, Sam has already been to the Wall and swore his vows before a weirwood tree, so he is Old Gods' follower now in a sense and will have a huge storyarc in the Reach, Dorne after all is said and done will be given to House Yronwood by Dany, an ancient First Men lineage and former rulers of Dorne like Royces in Vale (and Gwyneth, Lord Anders' youngest daughter, will marry last surviving Martell, probably Trystane, to solidify its claim on the region). etc.

Another First Men family, House Blackwood, has multiple sons for Lord Tytos. Their rivals, House Bracken and Lord Jonos, have multiple daughters. Maybe this feud between these two will end by multiple marriages between Blackwood brothers and Bracken sisters (I know they have intermarried before, but this time a new noble house will be found with blood of both? I dunno, their rivalry must end one way or another, I feel).

Yeah, I think all regions of Westeros will be changed by the end of saga, especially the Vale.

[sweetsunray]

A few additional thoughts over the past few days about the Eyrie, Sansa's snow castle, and their symbolism.

"Eyrie" is a name for an eagle's nest. I've wondered what kind of eagle connection the Eyrie of the Vale might have. Mostly, I associate eagles with the wildlings: Orell skinchanges into an eagle and the name Ygritte is almost like eaglet. But there is a bird motif at the Eyrie, so maybe the name of the castle isn't specific to eagles, but to birds in general. For instance, aside from the nickname Sweetrobin, the description of little Robert Arryn leaving the castle with Sansa/Alayne and Mya evokes an image of a bird trying to take flight but being held down (by attendants holding his cloak). Sweetrobin wants to see men "fly" out the moon door in the castle and his mother does make this one-way flight. Of course, there are lots of bird images throughout the book, so what might be special about the Eyrie's connection to birds?

Maybe the Eyrie isn't connected to birds so much as flight. Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark were fostered there. When they emerged as young warriors from the Gates of the Moon, Robert's Rebellion began and a new king was born. I understand there is a legend that the world had a second moon which cracked like an egg, causing dragons to hatch. Is it possible that GRRM gave us a "hatching" and "fledglings leaving the nest" when Ned and Robert B. emerged from the (Gates of the) Moon? Were they more like hatching dragons - a different flying creature - than hatching birds? If a young person emerging from the Moon (gate) is like the hatching of the dragons from the broken moon, what will this mean for Sansa? Sweetrobin? Will Mya and Myranda Royce also "hatch" when they emerge, or do you have to spend more time at the Eyrie to be part of this symbolic rebirth?

(For what it's worth, I think Tyrion emerging from the wine barrel upon arrival in Essos is also a symbolic dragon hatching. He may have a second hatching soon after that, when the ship Selaesori Qhoran breaks like an egg in the storm.)

The three waycastles leading to the Eyrie also piqued my interest: Sky, Snow and Stone. There is a logical progression as the traveler trudges higher along the path to the Eyrie or descends toward the valley. I was also intrigued, though, that Sansa stopped being Sandor's little bird and started being a bear cub at the Eyrie. (sweetsunray, I just read your The Bear and the Maiden Fair thread, and got some new thoughts based on that good OP and follow-up posts.) Sansa wears bear skins to descend from the Eyrie. Maybe her rebirth/hatching isn't about becoming a king or lord, like Robert and Ned making the same trip, but about taking on the next symbolic skinchange from a creature of the air to a creature of the earth. Just before she begins to build her snow castle, she looks to the sky. Then she "did not remember falling" but finds herself on her knees on the ground with the fallen snow that tastes of Winterfell. She has literally come down to earth and will soon travel from the Sky to Snow and then to Stone. I hope it's not illogical to see the Gates of the Moon as part of a separate sequence - part of the broken moon / hatching symbolism, not the descending-from-air-to-earth symbolism.

Like Varamyr Sixskins, maybe Sansa remains a little bird on some level, but adds bear cub to her symbolic options? This might also help to explain Arya's many states of being: squab, swan, acorn/oak, weasel, otter, horseface, etc. Each Stark girl has either mastered each transformation, or is in the process of mastering it.

The Sky, Snow and Stone trio of waycastles also may tie into the puzzling quarrying of marble in Tarth for the building of the Eyrie. By bringing stone from sea level up onto a mountain, there is an attempt to unite sky and earth or to bring the earth up to the sky. I'm thinking that this creates an imbalance of sorts, however, and that the avalanche scenario you have outlined will be nature's way of returning that stone to its proper level.

But let us return once again to Sansa's snow castle. Just before she begins her project, she notes that the soil at the Eyrie would not allow the growth of a weirwood, even though the garden had been set aside for this purpose: "A godswood without gods, as empty as me." For her model of Winterfell, however, she finds broken branches and twigs under the snow and uses them to make trees for the miniature godswood. (Not to get too far away from my point, but she is planting trees like Dany at this point.) Littlefinger shows up and tells Sansa to use twigs for the lattice of the greenhouse and to pack snow around sticks to make the bridges.

Sticks. Twigs. Branches. Wood. All very northern, very Old Gods. While practicing her sword moves for Syrio Forel, Arya balances in the upper branches of trees. When he reaches the COTF cave above the wall, Bran eats weirwood paste. Arya wears a dress covered with acorns for her pivotal ugly-duckling-turning-swan moment with Lady Smallwood (nee Swann). In Sansa's memory of the snowball fight with Arya and Bran at Winterfell, she recalls Bran taking up a position on the roof of a covered bridge. The equivalent in the snow model would put Bran on a snow-covered stick. Are these all Stark birds on twigs? After he climbs the keep at Winterfell and is pushed off, Bran will never walk on earth again; does this mean that he will always be a creature of the air? He rides on Hodor's back, and Hodor is among the tall people Ned compares to The Mountain when he first sees him at King's Landing. So Bran is still high up on a mountain, even when he is traveling along the King's Road or passing through the Black Gate under The Wall. As a prisoner of the sky, he could not experience the kind of rebirth Sansa undergoes as she descends from Sky to Snow to Stone.

(As your other thread so persuasively lays out, though, Arya is becoming a swan, which is a water bird. Water dancer? So she has - or will have - more options than Bran has to move on the ground as well as the air. She killed a pigeon and then inadvertently lost it on one of her first days on her own in King's Landing. And a squab is an unfledged pigeon so no flying with that identity, either.)

For her snow castle, Sansa is the one who creates the godswood out of twigs, bringing the Old Gods to both the Eyrie and to her dream of Winterfell. But why is it Littlefinger who comes up with the idea to use twigs for the structure of the glass garden and the bridges? My current thinking is that Littlefinger is playing a mentor role here, literally showing Sansa how to bridge a gap so she can get to her next quest or task. And, being a Stark, the way to bridge the gap is with wood and snow. He also tells her how to stop thinking about her King's Landing experience by advising her to cover the gargoyle (Tyrion) with snow, turning it into an undifferentiated lump. Put that gargoyle behind you, build a bridge and get to - a garden with imaginary glass? Why doesn't it occur to Littlefinger or Sansa to use some ice to make the glass? There is something about the symbolism here that requires that the garden does not have a glass covering - at least, not yet. Is GRRM implying that Sansa must seek dragonglass if she wants to complete her dream of a restored Winterfell? A glass candle? Is Littlefinger, for some reason, unable to come into contact with ice? Or does he want to avoid bringing Sansa into contact with it? The imaginary glass seems like an important moment in the literary symbolism or foreshadowing, but I don't have an answer. There isn't a lot of glass in the books, so it's hard to think of other references to the motif that might help to sort out the meaning here.

Edit: I just came upon a quote that might explain the absence of glass in Sansa's snow castle. It may tie in with the fruit motif (lemon cakes, blood orange, pear) that often comes up around Sansa. It also sounds as if it might tie into Sansa's earlier remark about the empty godswood and her own emptiness. This is Theon looking around Winterfell just after the wedding ceremony of fArya/Jeyne and Ramsay: "The thatch and timber had been consumed by fire, in whole or in part, and under the shattered panes of the Glass Garden the fruits and vegetables that would have fed the castle during the winter were dead and black and frozen." (ADwD, Chap. 35)

For the me eagle connection of the Eyrie is about Sansa's meta-tie with the Norse Idunn ('ever young') myth. With many of his (Stark) related characters, George worked in motifs of several abducted women/goddesses related to fertility/seasons/youth. For Lyanna we have Persephone and Helen. For Cat we have a link to Persephone early on, then Demeter (the furious mother who searches for her daughter), and Ishtar's journey into the Udnerworld to get her dead lover back. But Tyrion is actually Ishtar in that arc, while Lysa is Ishtar's sister, the Underworld Queen who keeps Ishtar prisoner, and nobody has sex anymore because of it. Sansa takes Idunn the moment she's taken to the Vale. Idunn was lured and therefore abducted by Loki to be delivered to a giant, who lived on a frosty mountain, who could shapeshift in an eagle. Loki was made to do this by the frost giant under threat of death. Idunn thus was taken to an eagle's nest. She was important because she provided the apples the gods ate from, and with which they preserved their youth. Suddenly they started to age, and realized Idunn was missing and ordered Loki (who was always in some misschief) to get her back. Loki does this by turning into a falcon and changing Idunn in the disguise of a nut he can hold in his claws. The giant discovers Idunn is gone, and chases Loki-falcon, only to fly too low and too fast and end up in a fire the gods built for the giant. So, yes I think the name is meant to indicate an eagle's nest, and not just a bird nest in general. It's the eagle's nest name that helps link Sansa to Idunn. George combined eagle with falcon, because those are the two relevant birds of the Idunn myth. Is it also a coincidence that George has Sansa at the Eyrie in Sansa's final aSoS chapter, after which he normally planned to do the 5 year gap, and everybody would have "aged" up?

We can also see the eagle as a reference to Bran. When he travelers the North to get to the Wall with Meera, Jojen and Hodor he notices eagles flying high, as the travel through the mountains of the Northern mountain clans. He wishes he could be an eagle. While Sansa wishes she's a falcon when she looks up at the falcons flying.

Harry and SR are the falcons ultimately. One could say that ultimately they make an unvolintarily sacrifice in liberating Sansa from LF and the Vale. BTW I love that imagery of SR's bulgling, flapping cloak.

I also love your thinking in the lines of "taking flight" and a hatchling. I think that at a deeper level you are right. Even if Sansa ends up going with Shadrich and in the hands of Varys, I think that she will learn and internalize a lot of the Vale events during the Long Night... things that need to hatch and help her become the woman she's supposed to be. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Even if the Vale is a kind of reiteration of betrothal-rival-politics game it also is a variation with fundamental differences. For one, she's not treated badly nor threatened anymore... certainly not after Lysa's death. She does get more confidence. She's still a prisoner of circumstances, but not an abused caged scared bird anymore either.

It's also interesting that you mention the hatching of dragons. I rewrote the essay about Jorah's impact on Dany: the reawakening of her sexuality, but also her connecting and giving in to her inner dragon. At the end of aGoT Dany hatches her dragons, but especially in aDwD she locks the dragons up and makes every necessary compromize to for once create a lasting peace in the cities she freed. But these compromizes go against every fiber of her dragon instincts. And right before Drogon reppears, she takes of her floppy ears. She's had enough. No more compromise. Drogon appears and she becomes a dragonrider. In the Dothraki Sea she hears Jorah talking to her, reiterating the counsel he gave her to embrace her dragon and be Queen of Westeros. For this expanded essay of the bear's kiss, I did searches on Dany's evolution of referrals regarding Jorah. Not once does she refer to Jorah as a bear in aGoT. Yes, we know of Bear Island and that he has a bear sigil, but her POV only refers to Jorah as "the knight", or "her knight" and "Ser Jorah". It was him being a knight that piqued Dany's interest and how she saw him. She is completely ignorant of his beastly bear-nature. In aCoK she thinks of him as her bear once. Again she keeps seeing him as a knight, though she realizes he loves her not as a knight loves his queen, but as a man loves a woman, when he tells the story of Lynesse (swan maiden). From aSoS onwards, after his bear-kiss, that's when she starts to call him a 'bear' in her mind, while also having increased doubts whether he is a "true knight"; a true knight wouldn't have kissed his queen like that; a true knight wouldn't have spied on her. The bear-knight dichotomy comes to a head when she learns Arstan is not a squire but a kingsguard knight. In the end, she forgives the true knight, but sends the bear away. Dany chooses the knight over the bear at the end of aSoS still, when it comes to counsel. But in aDwD we see her increasing weariness with Selmy. She starts to call him grandfather-knight in her mind, while Jorah becomes her grumy bear she misses so much. She misses his counsel. In the end it's the bear's counsel she follows to be the dragon queen, to follow her instincts and nature. She's done with knights and maidens. Instead she's a dragon with a bear as spiritual guidance. If we transfer this idea to the "beauty and the beast" metaphor in the bear-maiden motif, what we get is not the beauty transforming the beast into becoming a better man, but the beast transforming the beauty in letting loose her beast. Spiritually, Dany has hatched into a dragon herself by the end of aDwD.

And I think you are right that we will see a rebirth hatching with Sansa as well... but one that ultimately will be a wolf. Sansa's snow castle chapter has a lot of Underworld symbols in it. And I maintain that the Underworld is the Stark source of power (not just the Crypt underworld). So, yes, to come into her true power, she must become a grounded animal. Agreed on the rest.  

Great find on the missing glass.

[sweetsunray]

so you are suggesting Lothor Brune will slay Mychel? I think everyone in the Vale knows Mychel deflowered Mya, but maybe some future confrontation between Mychel and Mya will result in Lothor killing him?

And since Lothor is Littlefinger's ally it might be a first huge confrontation between Baelish and Lords Declarant. Lord Redfort will probably demand execution of both Mya and Lothor, and Sansa might play a big role here. I dunno.

It is just Timmett is unmarried at this point, and his future conquest and rule of the Vale will be shaky, so story-wise it would make sense for him to marry the daughter of the most powerful lord of the Vale who might help him to bring into fold all other survived noble houses.

But to be honest, it won't matter too much by the end of the saga, because forces of the Vale under Timmett would be summoned by Tyrion to fight on Daenerys' side first in Dance with Dragons, then in the Battle of Dawn, and I am not sure who survives, and who doesn't at the end, I think Lord Royce and his sons will die in the coming battles, and Royce's daughter will give Timmett the absolute control over the Vale. Timmett considers himself of a First Men descent, therefore he will reject Arryn name even though his mother is probably an Arryn. He probably hates Andal culture and everything that comes with it (knighthood, chivalry, etc.). 

But House Royce is like a Vale royalty, they descend from First Men and they used to rule the Vale as First Men before Andal invasion. They are still very powerful which shows their strength even after thousands of years of Andals controlling the region. Their lord even wears a bronze armor with ancient First Men runestones. That is why I argue that Timmett will marry Lord Royce's daughter so he and his kids will have a claim on the Vale as FIRST MEN kings.

I actually foresee First Men culture coming back to all regions of Westeros, which will bring back the Old Gods to whole Westeros,and therefore, power to Bran and House Stark. Theon will be a huge catalyst for that with ironborn, Sam has already been to the Wall and swore his vows before a weirwood tree, so he is Old Gods' follower now in a sense and will have a huge storyarc in the Reach, Dorne after all is said and done will be given to House Yronwood by Dany, an ancient First Men lineage and former rulers of Dorne like Royces in Vale (and Gwyneth, Lord Anders' youngest daughter, will marry last surviving Martell, probably Trystane, to solidify its claim on the region). etc.

Another First Men family, House Blackwood, has multiple sons for Lord Tytos. Their rivals, House Bracken and Lord Jonos, have multiple daughters. Maybe this feud between these two will end by multiple marriages between Blackwood brothers and Bracken sisters (I know they have intermarried before, but this time a new noble house will be found with blood of both? I dunno, their rivalry must end one way or another, I feel).

Yeah, I think all regions of Westeros will be changed by the end of saga, especially the Vale.

No, I don't necessarily think Lothor will kill or slay Mychel. I'm just saying I see the making of the Niebelungensaga in the background of Sansa's Vale story, or at least some trick where Mychel helps Lothor to gain Mya's notice. I doubt GRRM will go full on Niebelungen on them, since it's actually one of the most famous Norse myths to date. Wagner made 3 operas covering it. He's purposefully not giving it to any of the POV characters, but instead using it for background and tertiary support characters. Mychel might just die in the avalanche or something or at the Bloody Gates after a fight with Mya. It's just a motif George is using to make us sympathize with the surrounding characters and not just Sansa alone. We've been after all introduced to Lothor and Mya since aGoT. Well, we had a background bit of Mya already in aGoT with Cat as she speaks of Mychel, while Lothor has been around and featured often in Sansa chapters as a background character. We only learn of his personal story in the later books in the Vale. And now we've been introduced to romantic feeligns of his. I think it will most of all serve Sansa to acquire Lothor's loaylty. 

I would not discount Yohn Royce though. Lothor Brune eventually falls to Robar Royce in Sansa's pov of the hand's tourney. Yohn Royce will come out of top, because LF will be dead (Lothor is a stand in for LF) and House Arryn is gone too. The mountain clans cannot defeat Yohn Royce. I think you are right that Old Gods/First Men events are happening to be ready for Others and Dragons, and are falling in the hands of these Old Gods/First Men factions again, with a touch of fire-magic or water-magic. But beyond Yohn Royce coming out on top of it in the Vale, I don't dare to make any Vale predictions or speculations. We are blind in that regard imo, because the foreshadowing info does not go beyond the Vale disaster of the OP.  It becomes guesswork beyond that moment.

[chetula]

Wow, fantastic job!  I'm quite convinced by your arguments for avalanche in vale and the part of Timett .  and as to who will Sansa end up with, Timett or Shadrich, I do think Shadrich has a much better chance, Ned once thought Lady was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting,  and I think Sansa will, for the third time,  and hopefully the last time , have a trusting issue.

Again, I really enjoy your ideas, and hope to see your new essays.

[Sly Wren]

 

• Sansa will confront Littlefinger at some point during these disasters and be in the position to see him beheaded. His head will land on a stake of the castle.
• Sansa either falls in the hands of the Burned Men, manages to flee to Yohn Royce or is taken by Shadrich. For several reasons, it seems most likely that she opts to flee with Shadrich, which is an ill fated choice, since he rides a red horse. What will happen then is not foreshadowed in her chapters, other than the knowledge that she will be on her knees by the time dawn has conquered the Long Night.

While looking for something else, I came on this passage which seems like it might be relevant to your conclusions. Though you have likely already considered it, I'll put it here just in case:

QUOTE: "Ned Stark was here?"

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' "

"No more than I was," said Davos Seaworthy. Dance, Davos I

If, as you predict, the Burned Men get hold of Sansa--do they have a memory of Ned's getting through the mountains down to the Fingers? 

And if Sansa were to get through the mountains and out of the Vale this way--it would echo Ned's actions. 

[sweetsunray]

Sly Wren, well I always got the impression that the Mountains of the Moon are west of the Eyrie, and that the Vale mountain clans inhabit those to bother those traveling from the Eyrie to the Riverlands. After all, the 4th daughter was to be wed to a Bracken, right? So, she was probably on her way on the road to the RL crossroads, when she was kidnapped. Ned's voyage to the Fingers would not have taken him there. 

More general addition: I've been working on a more expanded article regarding Sansa-Bear song-Hound-True knights sort of thing, and one of the foremost critique against the idea that Sansa might be wooed by Harry the Heir is the claim that she does not believe in true knights anymore, that she does not wish for a knight. But that's not entirely right. In aGoT and aCoK we see Sansa readjusting her beliefs about knights and true knights. She starts out basically believing that all knights are true knights and heroes (because of the knightly vows), and that these true knights are distinguishable by age, manners and handsomeness. Hence, she thinks Loras is a better knight than Beric: younger, very gallant and incredibly handsome. But soon she must reject a few men from that knight=true knight concept, starting with Gregor Clegane, then Jaime and then Meryn Trant. After the beating she gets in the Throne Hall in aCoK, she concludes none of the KG nor the knights present in the hall are true knights. Some readers interprete it as Sansa not believing in true knights anymore altogether. But her argument with Sandor about true knights comes after her conclusion that "they are not true knights, none of them are". And her conclusion of her argument with Sandor - who nihillistically claims that true knight do not exist at all - is that true knights do exist; that the stories cannot be all lies. And that true knights must exist is her last thought and conclusion in the books so far. She has split the concept of a "knight" with that of a "true knight", where there are more knights of the sort that Sandor describes, but there must be true kights too, albeit far rarer. And with Sansa telling herself she can always imagine she's kissing the Knight of Flowers when Sweetrobin kisses her, Sansa still dreams of a true knight as a romantic partner (of course Loras is not the true knight Sansa believes him to be, but that's somethign entirely different).  

 

[Sly Wren]

Sly Wren, well I always got the impression that the Mountains of the Moon are west of the Eyrie, and that the Vale mountain clans inhabit those to bother those traveling from the Eyrie to the Riverlands. After all, the 4th daughter was to be wed to a Bracken, right? So, she was probably on her way on the road to the RL crossroads, when she was kidnapped. Ned's voyage to the Fingers would not have taken him there. 

Okay--I just found this again. I was afraid this thread had somehow gotten purged--very glad it hasn't.

On Ned and mountains--yes, The Mountains of the Moon are West. Question: can Ned get to the Fingers going straight north-east? Or does he have to go around to the west to get through? I couldn't find a way to figure that in the books. 

It may be nothing--but I found the mention interesting. Martin's less subtle with his "hints" in Feast and Dance (I think). Seems like the factoid of Ned's getting out through the mountains and Fingers might be placed on purpose.

But we need more data.

More general addition: I've been working on a more expanded article regarding Sansa-Bear song-Hound-True knights sort of thing, and one of the foremost critique against the idea that Sansa might be wooed by Harry the Heir is the claim that she does not believe in true knights anymore, that she does not wish for a knight. But that's not entirely right. In aGoT and aCoK we see Sansa readjusting her beliefs about knights and true knights. She starts out basically believing that all knights are true knights and heroes (because of the knightly vows), and that these true knights are distinguishable by age, manners and handsomeness. Hence, she thinks Loras is a better knight than Beric: younger, very gallant and incredibly handsome. But soon she must reject a few men from that knight=true knight concept, starting with Gregor Clegane, then Jaime and then Meryn Trant. After the beating she gets in the Throne Hall in aCoK, she concludes none of the KG nor the knights present in the hall are true knights. Some readers interprete it as Sansa not believing in true knights anymore altogether. But her argument with Sandor about true knights comes after her conclusion that "they are not true knights, none of them are". And her conclusion of her argument with Sandor - who nihillistically claims that true knight do not exist at all - is that true knights do exist; that the stories cannot be all lies. And that true knights must exist is her last thought and conclusion in the books so far. She has split the concept of a "knight" with that of a "true knight", where there are more knights of the sort that Sandor describes, but there must be true kights too, albeit far rarer. And with Sansa telling herself she can always imagine she's kissing the Knight of Flowers when Sweetrobin kisses her, Sansa still dreams of a true knight as a romantic partner (of course Loras is not the true knight Sansa believes him to be, but that's somethign entirely different).  

HA! Talks about synchronicity. I've been working on an argument which makes a similar claim--though to a different end. Will put it up soon. And will be eager to read your essay/argument on it re: the bear article.

I completely agree that Sansa's faith in the knightly ideal has survived the horror of the beastly kingsguard. It echoes the scene Bran remembers with Ned where he asked him about the kingsguard, "once a shining example to the world." Bran's been disappointed a bit that night--then thinks of this moment with Ned and goes to sleep dreaming of knights fighting with swords of starfire.

So, Bran believes in the knightly ideals. So did Ned--even though the current knights were no longer true, Ned knew true knights did exist. Sansa seems to be cut from the same cloth. Even Arya--she's angry that people fail at their ideals, but she still believes in those ideals.

[Sly Wren]

On other thing re: that moment when Sansa as Alayne overlooks the golden Vale: 

QUOTE: She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two.

She heard the door open as her maids brought the hot water for her bath. They were both new to her service; Tyrion said the women who'd tended to her previously had all been Cersei's spies, just as Sansa had always suspected. "Come see," she told them. "There's a castle in the sky."

They came to have a look. "It's made of gold." Shae had short dark hair and bold eyes. She did all that was asked of her, but sometimes she gave Sansa the most insolent looks. "A castle all of gold, there's a sight I'd like to see." Storm, Sansa IV

I'm not quite sure what to make of this yet--it's at dawn, so of course my mind goes in that direction. But the golden castle in the sky--a bit like the Eyrie reference to the golden Vale. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Damn, this is fantastic! I feel spoilered now. :-P

 

Do you think there's any chance of Sansa striking up an alliance, or at least getting in the relative good graces of the Mountain Clans by them somehow finding out she's Tyrion's wife? This would likely be after all the disasters...maybe she flees with the Mad Mouse but clans capture them? In a fit of desperation Sansa busts out all of her titles, hoping to intimidate them? Tyrion gets mentioned and they're like "wait, what?"

I'm not sure what the result of that would be. Hard to imagine them following her....unless her warging ability manifests in some impressive way. But they might just let her go. Or they might not care.

 

[sweetsunray]

Okay--I just found this again. I was afraid this thread had somehow gotten purged--very glad it hasn't.

On Ned and mountains--yes, The Mountains of the Moon are West. Question: can Ned get to the Fingers going straight north-east? Or does he have to go around to the west to get through? I couldn't find a way to figure that in the books. 

It may be nothing--but I found the mention interesting. Martin's less subtle with his "hints" in Feast and Dance (I think). Seems like the factoid of Ned's getting out through the mountains and Fingers might be placed on purpose.

But we need more data.

HA! Talks about synchronicity. I've been working on an argument which makes a similar claim--though to a different end. Will put it up soon. And will be eager to read your essay/argument on it re: the bear article.

I completely agree that Sansa's faith in the knightly ideal has survived the horror of the beastly kingsguard. It echoes the scene Bran remembers with Ned where he asked him about the kingsguard, "once a shining example to the world." Bran's been disappointed a bit that night--then thinks of this moment with Ned and goes to sleep dreaming of knights fighting with swords of starfire.

So, Bran believes in the knightly ideals. So did Ned--even though the current knights were no longer true, Ned knew true knights did exist. Sansa seems to be cut from the same cloth. Even Arya--she's angry that people fail at their ideals, but she still believes in those ideals.

Yes, Ned can go through North East. From the Eyrie on the land becomes a large vale, and there are several castles in that regions. This map of the Wiki indicates where the castles are of several respective Houses: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/2d/The_Vale.jpg

Exactly. I don't see there is any foundation to claim that Sansa does not believe in true knights anymore. She still does. But her view has become simply more realistic - they are not common, but a rarity, the exception. She has become more sceptic, but not cynic. Same is true about her first interaction with Harry - sceptical, but not cynical. Nor would I discount a romantic evolution out of that first antagonistic interaction between them, since well it's a staple of romances (think Pride & Prejudice here... Mr Darcy who insults Lizzy Bennet and behaves pretty much like an ass at the start), including Sandor-Sansa.

[sweetsunray]

On other thing re: that moment when Sansa as Alayne overlooks the golden Vale: 

QUOTE: She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two.

She heard the door open as her maids brought the hot water for her bath. They were both new to her service; Tyrion said the women who'd tended to her previously had all been Cersei's spies, just as Sansa had always suspected. "Come see," she told them. "There's a castle in the sky."

They came to have a look. "It's made of gold." Shae had short dark hair and bold eyes. She did all that was asked of her, but sometimes she gave Sansa the most insolent looks. "A castle all of gold, there's a sight I'd like to see." Storm, Sansa IV

I'm not quite sure what to make of this yet--it's at dawn, so of course my mind goes in that direction. But the golden castle in the sky--a bit like the Eyrie reference to the golden Vale. 

It sounds like a reference to a union of two Houses. And with the castle in the sky we have the reference of 'air castles' as in fantasy, but also the Vale.

[sweetsunray]

Damn, this is fantastic! I feel spoilered now. :-P

 

Do you think there's any chance of Sansa striking up an alliance, or at least getting in the relative good graces of the Mountain Clans by them somehow finding out she's Tyrion's wife? This would likely be after all the disasters...maybe she flees with the Mad Mouse but clans capture them? In a fit of desperation Sansa busts out all of her titles, hoping to intimidate them? Tyrion gets mentioned and they're like "wait, what?"

I'm not sure what the result of that would be. Hard to imagine them following her....unless her warging ability manifests in some impressive way. But they might just let her go. Or they might not care.

 

Thank you, Blind Beth. I understand the sentiment. It's how I felt when I first realized the connection of the Mountain that Rides with the Giant's Lance and how much a rather precise scenario is foreshadowed. While not every coming event seems as meticulously foreshadowed, the foreshadowing on this scenario is almost like reading a first draft letter hidden inside the books itself.

Well, I don't think Sansa would need Tyrion as a reference to get in the good graces of say Timett. He knows her. He was one of the party when Tyrion arrives at the Name Day Tourney. He's also one of the men who helps her up and covers her in the throne room after her beating that Tyrion interrupts. Of the men of the Mountain Clans in Sansa's chapters, Timett is the most heavily featured one... though hardly ever by name. But they definitely would recognize each other. The fact that the mountain clans and especially Timett returned to the mountains before there even was a plan to marry Sansa to Tyrion, imo indicates they're not supposed to know it, and allows for room that Timett might have his own personal interest in Sansa. If Sansa falls in the hands of the Vale Mountain Clans, I'm pretty sure that Timett would prefer her for himself.

[Sly Wren]

It sounds like a reference to a union of two Houses. And with the castle in the sky we have the reference of 'air castles' as in fantasy, but also the Vale.

Right--that joining of two "sky" castles, made of gold. I just keep coming back to the image of Sansa looking down on the castles in the Vale. And the names of them. Seems like the "mushing" of the castles--it looks all pretty. But in real life, such a clash would be rather violent.

Like your prediction. . . 

Yes, Ned can go through North East. From the Eyrie on the land becomes a large vale, and there are several castles in that regions. This map of the Wiki indicates where the castles are of several respective Houses: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/2d/The_Vale.jpg

Good to know. Will have to see if Martin does anything with Sansa's escaping the Vale. . . 

Exactly. I don't see there is any foundation to claim that Sansa does not believe in true knights anymore. She still does. But her view has become simply more realistic - they are not common, but a rarity, the exception. She has become more sceptic, but not cynic. Same is true about her first interaction with Harry - sceptical, but not cynical. Nor would I discount a romantic evolution out of that first antagonistic interaction between them, since well it's a staple of romances (think Pride & Prejudice here... Mr Darcy who insults Lizzy Bennet and behaves pretty much like an ass at the start), including Sandor-Sansa.

I agree that a romantic development is possible. But it could (theoretically) also be hindered by her belief in true knighthood. If Harry fails her--as so many others have--could see her refusing to go with the plan. One of the main reasons she "liked" Sandor is he acted. Even in his mocking of her ideals, he had a kind of idealism. And he followed through on helping her. If Harry isn't even as "helpful" as the Hound. . . could see that's being a problem.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Thank you, Blind Beth. I understand the sentiment. It's how I felt when I first realized the connection of the Mountain that Rides with the Giant's Lance and how much a rather precise scenario is foreshadowed. While not every coming event seems as meticulously foreshadowed, the foreshadowing on this scenario is almost like reading a first draft letter hidden inside the books itself.

Well, I don't think Sansa would need Tyrion as a reference to get in the good graces of say Timett. He knows her. He was one of the party when Tyrion arrives at the Name Day Tourney. He's also one of the men who helps her up and covers her in the throne room after her beating that Tyrion interrupts. Of the men of the Mountain Clans in Sansa's chapters, Timett is the most heavily featured one... though hardly ever by name. But they definitely would recognize each other. The fact that the mountain clans and especially Timett returned to the mountains before there even was a plan to marry Sansa to Tyrion, imo indicates they're not supposed to know it, and allows for room that Timett might have his own personal interest in Sansa. If Sansa falls in the hands of the Vale Mountain Clans, I'm pretty sure that Timett would prefer her for himself.

That's very interesting...I didn't remember Timett being such a feature. Sounds like there is a lot of interesting potential in a Sansa/Mountain Clans meeting.

[TheSeason]

I know this has been here awhile, but I only just found it... and I really love this theory.

It fits so well with the Vale arc, even though it is emotionally devastating from Sansa's/the reader's perspective... But the thing is, I just cannot see the Vale going unscathed until the Long Night falls, it would be a gut-punch to the reader's sensibilities, what with the villains clearly winning--plenty of food, armies and military resources largely untouched, people prepared and ready to act by remaining cleverly unbloodied in senseless political wars that devastate the rest of the realm...

Except, that means utterly forgetting that Lysa Tully and Petyr Baelish deliberately started that political war, unprovoked, for their own gain,  glory, and grudges. They get away with it, with their selfishness and callous disregard for the welfare, needs, and rights of others, even going so far as to gloat over their "victories" against the unsuspecting who mistakenly think them friends, and the weak and vulnerable they--as high lords--are required to protect as part of the social contract of fealty, etc...

Lysa Tully wasn't being smart when she kept the Vale out of the war, she was being treacherous and vain, even privately gloating over her first "victory" against her sister--many readers accept Littlefinger's destructive, possessive obsession with Cat and his hateful regard for Ned and Brandon Stark, but seem to overlook the obsessive, hateful grudge against Cat that Lysa carried in her jealousy. The letter she sent her sister in Game bespeaks it, though.

We think of Lysa as an idiot and a bit of a creep (Sweetrobin; her rape of Petyr), but she is likely more clever than we give her credit for, and fully understood the inevitable result of her letter to Cat. She was eager to send it anyway, then, because at long last she could eliminate and triumph over her "love" rival for Petyr's affections.

So, with Lysa's knowing culpability in starting the War of Five Kings, it puts Cat's Vale arc in a new light, blind to the treachery of her sister just as she'd been blind to her sister's feelings of envy, covetousness, and obsessive wrath (just like Robert Baratheon's "Targaryen rage madness"). Lysa spends her time with her sister gleefully gloating on her triumph whilst feigning cowardice, moral outrage, and innocence (playing the devastated, helpless victim--whilst framing an actually innocent man for her crimes, imprisoning, abusing, and attempting to execute him) to blind her sister to what is really going on.

I cannot see GRRM implicitly condoning the immorality and savagery and callous disregard in the Lysa Tully-Petyr Baelish philosophy: chaos is a ladder I can climb to attain my goals. Should they (and the Vale by association, despite being their victims as well) ever get to play the hero, then? No. Emphatically, no.

The lies of Lysa and Petyr have devastated the realm and imperiled its future. The nation is war-torn and ravaged, disunited, practically every man for himself. Innocents are slaughtered, tortured, and raped en masse, armies and houses massacred, the populace morally bankrupted [Tywin Lannister's chevauchee in the Riverlands, broken men everywhere, Frey-Bolton-Lannister conspiracy to break guest right (and all laws of gods and men), Lannister-Spicer conspiracy to break marital sanctity (and all the laws of gods and men), the faith neglected and the faithful (or innocents) so abused and frightened they must gather in strength (even though infiltrated by northerners and riverlanders, including remnants of broken armies attempting to reforge themselves and reassert power) to bring down the system/powers that allows, encourages, and overlooks their slaughter, the mass torture and rape of soldier and civilians, the mass hunger the slash-and-burn/"foraging" tactics cause and the mass disregard for and abuse of the hungry, etc.].

Not to diminish the guilt of the other perpetrators, but Lysa Tully and Petyr Baelish are also guilty of committing all of these crimes against humanity by being the sole instigators of the conflict (Jon Arryn's murder, the letter to Cat blaming Lannisters, insinuating the king is next). Certainly Littlefinger knew enough personal history (conflict between Jaime-Ned about Kingslaying; conflict between Robert-Ned about slaughter of Rhaegar's children (if not rape and murder of his wife?); disgust of Tywin Lannister for Sack) to play Ned's Lannister prejudices against him... but one might wonder if the source of some of that information was not Lysa Tully herself (via Cat).

So, I cannot see the Vale ultimately rewarded, even lauded the hero and savior of the realm when its entire destruction stems back to the Vale (in personages of Lysa and Petyr). Martin operates in-universe with a strict moral code that bad deeds come back to people (at times threefold), even if they initially seem triumphant and unscathed [think: Ned's broken promises to Lyanna--broken in moral sense, by keeping the letter but not the spirit of his oath, a quandary that Jon Snow now finds himself in again and again, but mostly--fortunately, it appears he chooses spirit over letter--leading to his demise when he chooses to protect and back Robert's kingship/legacy and pride once again (over Lyanna/Jon previously by declaring fealty to Robert; presently declaring Stannis) but ultimately betraying his king (Stannis) by utterly denying his existence (with treason), but this time it are his own children (as opposed to Jon Snow) who suffer and are abused for his choice; Maegi Spicer's comeuppance in form of Spicer treachery, Red Wedding (Spicers were killed there b/c Lannister refused to forewarn them), and Jeyne Westerling (the prophecy having as bitter an effect on her family as Cersei's!); Lannister "triumphs" over the Starks, the Targaryens, and even the Baratheons consistently blowing up in their faces].

So, the whole, hale, well-fed Vale seeming humanity's best hope against the onslaught of the Second Long Night (and cleaning up the political quagmire first!) just doesn't feel right (or in-character for the authorial morality previously established). That it was all for nothing, utterly senseless and savage and indisputably immoral, amounting to casual cruelty for cruelty's sake... Now that reads right.

I also like what you said about the Burned Men, and Timett son of Timett especially. This is also a story I'd like to read. I always liked Timett son of Timett far more than the irritating and immature Shagga son of Dolf. He has a mystique, a prescence that is undeniable. I was actually sad when the Burned Men left the story, but gained some hope I might meet them again along the road when I read about the incursions in the Vale.

That Tyrion claimed he'd give the mountain clans the Vale of Arryn (in retribution for the Lysa-Petyr scheme that falsely accused, falsely imprisoned, and attempted to falsely execute him--likely because he's "the dwarf," and thus, an "expendable" Lannister to Tywin Lannister's legacy... that they did it twice is curious, with Littlefinger first scheming to have Tyrion married to Sansa so as to prevent her escape to Highgarden with the Tyrells--who, if schemers as well, are gentle with her at least--all the while knowing he would have to have Tyrion framed and executed to free Sansa up for (ultimately) himself.) always seemed to be prophetic (foreshadowing) to me.

The mountain clans will take the Vale for their own, not because it was given to them, but by having earned their arms and armor, and organized military experience, and learned (or perhaps expanded upon--the Burned Men did seem like the (frankly glorious!) Thenn culture to me as well) an authoritative, pyramidal political and power structure. I could definitely see Timett son of Timett, the Red Hand -- this title is also referential of the red right hand of God, being vengeful and punitive in nature, striking down against mankind in various disasters and devastating miracles [this is, of course, Satanic proclamation, but not inherently wrong therefore, with Satan at times assuming semi-divine Promethean (amongst other such hero figures) qualities--enlightening rather than dooming mankind, gifting them intellectual fire, which is, then, "forbidden" fruit for God's sake, but not ours]; God's right hand is red with the blood of his mortal "victims" in this sense... and Timett son of Timett, an Odin-figure blinding himself for power and knowledge, in keeping with the theme of the God's (left) Eye and the blood betrayal (sacrifice of others for one's own gain) versus sacred self-sacrifice (usually for others' gain) -- in such position, leading his people to their glory. 

Timett son of Timett was willing to sacrifice more of himself than others, and in such a manner that was incomprehensible to all other men... Will not, then, other men (lesser men) gain something of vital importance from his self-diminishment?

This is in keeping with the theme as well as his own arc: Timett son of Timett hated taking orders from Tyrion and he loathed King's Landing and its Andal culture, but he bit his tongue and swallowed his pride to learn so he could exert power (and thereby protect and aid, inherent in the social contract of "fealty"/clan loyalty) over his own people and lead them into a position of greater strength, influence, and (self-sustaining) power.

Swallowing his pride and debasing himself to learn from a man he inherently disliked but respected as mentor, he assumed a certain responsibility... to make something more out of his title, the Red Hand, and his people with it.

[At least, that's my reading of his arc thus far, and why the mountain clans are suddenly such trouble to the Vale Lords, impossible to intimidate into submission as in years past--it's not that they have better equipment (that's only a fraction of the equation), it's that they also have better organization and leadership (suddenly certain clan members have more power, authority, and demand more respect and obedience than others) as well as better alliances (suddenly clans know how to work together, with a "group-leader" council and a single authoritative power source: likely Timett son of Timett, who all clans equally respected and feared) and better experience and insider information about how the foe works (not only have they been fighting lords on their own terms and in their own manner but also Tyrion helped organize them in the lordly/Andal way!) and most importantly of all, they have more wealth (spoils of war) and better goals and ambitions (they've found their pride to stand toe-to-toe with Andals, their lords and armies, and of course these clans will eventually want what the lords have--that which was theirs first, only to be stolen from them.).

Anyway, this got much longer than I intended (sorry)... but I really enjoyed reading your theory. It makes perfect narrative sense for me, and I love how you tied Timett son of Timett into the Vale Lord/Arryn extinction power-intrigue arc. This was fantastic!

[sweetsunray]

 

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

I know this has been here awhile, but I only just found it... and I really love this theory.

It fits so well with the Vale arc, even though it is emotionally devastating from Sansa's/the reader's perspective... But the thing is, I just cannot see the Vale going unscathed until the Long Night falls, it would be a gut-punch to the reader's sensibilities, what with the villains clearly winning--plenty of food, armies and military resources largely untouched, people prepared and ready to act by remaining cleverly unbloodied in senseless political wars that devastate the rest of the realm...

Except, that means utterly forgetting that Lysa Tully and Petyr Baelish deliberately started that political war, unprovoked, for their own gain,  glory, and grudges. They get away with it, with their selfishness and callous disregard for the welfare, needs, and rights of others, even going so far as to gloat over their "victories" against the unsuspecting who mistakenly think them friends, and the weak and vulnerable they--as high lords--are required to protect as part of the social contract of fealty, etc...

Lysa Tully wasn't being smart when she kept the Vale out of the war, she was being treacherous and vain, even privately gloating over her first "victory" against her sister--many readers accept Littlefinger's destructive, possessive obsession with Cat and his hateful regard for Ned and Brandon Stark, but seem to overlook the obsessive, hateful grudge against Cat that Lysa carried in her jealousy. The letter she sent her sister in Game bespeaks it, though.

snip

I cannot see GRRM implicitly condoning the immorality and savagery and callous disregard in the Lysa Tully-Petyr Baelish philosophy: chaos is a ladder I can climb to attain my goals. Should they (and the Vale by association, despite being their victims as well) ever get to play the hero, then? No. Emphatically, no.

snip.

So, I cannot see the Vale ultimately rewarded, even lauded the hero and savior of the realm when its entire destruction stems back to the Vale (in personages of Lysa and Petyr). Martin operates in-universe with a strict moral code that bad deeds come back to people (at times threefold), even if they initially seem triumphant and unscathed [think: Ned's broken promises to Lyanna--broken in moral sense, by keeping the letter but not the spirit of his oath, a quandary that Jon Snow now finds himself in again and again, but mostly--fortunately, it appears he chooses spirit over letter--leading to his demise when he chooses to protect and back Robert's kingship/legacy and pride once again (over Lyanna/Jon previously by declaring fealty to Robert; presently declaring Stannis) but ultimately betraying his king (Stannis) by utterly denying his existence (with treason), but this time it are his own children (as opposed to Jon Snow) who suffer and are abused for his choice; Maegi Spicer's comeuppance in form of Spicer treachery, Red Wedding (Spicers were killed there b/c Lannister refused to forewarn them), and Jeyne Westerling (the prophecy having as bitter an effect on her family as Cersei's!); Lannister "triumphs" over the Starks, the Targaryens, and even the Baratheons consistently blowing up in their faces].

So, the whole, hale, well-fed Vale seeming humanity's best hope against the onslaught of the Second Long Night (and cleaning up the political quagmire first!) just doesn't feel right (or in-character for the authorial morality previously established). That it was all for nothing, utterly senseless and savage and indisputably immoral, amounting to casual cruelty for cruelty's sake... Now that reads right.

I also like what you said about the Burned Men, and Timett son of Timett especially. This is also a story I'd like to read. I always liked Timett son of Timett far more than the irritating and immature Shagga son of Dolf. He has a mystique, a prescence that is undeniable. I was actually sad when the Burned Men left the story, but gained some hope I might meet them again along the road when I read about the incursions in the Vale.

That Tyrion claimed he'd give the mountain clans the Vale of Arryn (in retribution for the Lysa-Petyr scheme that falsely accused, falsely imprisoned, and attempted to falsely execute him--likely because he's "the dwarf," and thus, an "expendable" Lannister to Tywin Lannister's legacy... that they did it twice is curious, with Littlefinger first scheming to have Tyrion married to Sansa so as to prevent her escape to Highgarden with the Tyrells--who, if schemers as well, are gentle with her at least--all the while knowing he would have to have Tyrion framed and executed to free Sansa up for (ultimately) himself.) always seemed to be prophetic (foreshadowing) to me.

The mountain clans will take the Vale for their own, not because it was given to them, but by having earned their arms and armor, and organized military experience, and learned (or perhaps expanded upon--the Burned Men did seem like the (frankly glorious!) Thenn culture to me as well) an authoritative, pyramidal political and power structure. I could definitely see Timett son of Timett, the Red Hand -- this title is also referential of the red right hand of God, being vengeful and punitive in nature, striking down against mankind in various disasters and devastating miracles [this is, of course, Satanic proclamation, but not inherently wrong therefore, with Satan at times assuming semi-divine Promethean (amongst other such hero figures) qualities--enlightening rather than dooming mankind, gifting them intellectual fire, which is, then, "forbidden" fruit for God's sake, but not ours]; God's right hand is red with the blood of his mortal "victims" in this sense... and Timett son of Timett, an Odin-figure blinding himself for power and knowledge, in keeping with the theme of the God's (left) Eye and the blood betrayal (sacrifice of others for one's own gain) versus sacred self-sacrifice (usually for others' gain) -- in such position, leading his people to their glory. 

Timett son of Timett was willing to sacrifice more of himself than others, and in such a manner that was incomprehensible to all other men... Will not, then, other men (lesser men) gain something of vital importance from his self-diminishment?

This is in keeping with the theme as well as his own arc: Timett son of Timett hated taking orders from Tyrion and he loathed King's Landing and its Andal culture, but he bit his tongue and swallowed his pride to learn so he could exert power (and thereby protect and aid, inherent in the social contract of "fealty"/clan loyalty) over his own people and lead them into a position of greater strength, influence, and (self-sustaining) power.

Swallowing his pride and debasing himself to learn from a man he inherently disliked but respected as mentor, he assumed a certain responsibility... to make something more out of his title, the Red Hand, and his people with it.

[At least, that's my reading of his arc thus far, and why the mountain clans are suddenly such trouble to the Vale Lords, impossible to intimidate into submission as in years past--it's not that they have better equipment (that's only a fraction of the equation), it's that they also have better organization and leadership (suddenly certain clan members have more power, authority, and demand more respect and obedience than others) as well as better alliances (suddenly clans know how to work together, with a "group-leader" council and a single authoritative power source: likely Timett son of Timett, who all clans equally respected and feared) and better experience and insider information about how the foe works (not only have they been fighting lords on their own terms and in their own manner but also Tyrion helped organize them in the lordly/Andal way!) and most importantly of all, they have more wealth (spoils of war) and better goals and ambitions (they've found their pride to stand toe-to-toe with Andals, their lords and armies, and of course these clans will eventually want what the lords have--that which was theirs first, only to be stolen from them.).

Anyway, this got much longer than I intended (sorry)... but I really enjoyed reading your theory. It makes perfect narrative sense for me, and I love how you tied Timett son of Timett into the Vale Lord/Arryn extinction power-intrigue arc. This was fantastic!

Thank you, The Season

Yes, I agree. George tends to write a severe retribution angle for the 'villains' in the story, and usually always at either a great cost or making the reader even qeausy about it.

• Arya taking out a couple of evil people on her list, but at the cost of her identity, her childhood, ...
• Joffrey dies a cruel death, but Sansa ends up in the claws of the man who has preyed on her since the start, who manipulated everyone to start the war and destroy her family, and it gave Cersei even more power
• Tywin's death comes at the cost of Tyrion's more moral character and leaves Cersei complely unchecked
• The Goat's torture and death is just very very sick. Jaime is correct by being deeply disturbed with a man having his limbs chopped off, cooked and fed to him.
• The Frey Pies. It's funny on the one hand, but well it makes you think... Sheesh, it's cannibalism! You never look at a meat pie the same way again (unless you already watched Sweeney Todd)
• Gregor's death cost Dorne and us the readers Oberyn... And then his body even gets used by the necromancer to make a monstrous KG out of it
• Cersei getting a bit of her own retribution by being imprisoned by the HS, but that walk of shame is wrong too... she's being shamed in a manner that disagrees with our own morality and for what are ultimately the wrong 'wrongs', and a lot of better people and basically children in the dungeons
• Freys being hanged, while making us feel sorry for Merret Frey and at the cost of the BwB's ideals, Brienne's capture and most likely Jaime's just now that he's mentally ready to take a step on the redemption path and cut himself off from Cersei
• Theon's torture by Ramsay
• Balon's taken out, but we get Euron instead
• Moat Cailin's mopped up, but well they were poor sods wasting away already and forgotten and left behind by Vic. And while the crannogmen were largely responsible for it, it were Roose and Ramsay who took advantage out of it, not Robb.

Retribution comes, but always leaving a bad aftertaste or in some cases even wishing we could forego it. He never makes it an easy or morally cheap retribution, and often while we're starting to get around the fact that perhaps collaboration with the villains can serve the protagonists for the better.

So, yes, in the way he's been writing retribution, it makes sense for the Vale forces and food stock (at least LF's) to go to waste and that LF won't be removed from the game board without taking other innocent lives along in the arc, and making us think, "Not now!" That's why I think Sweetrobin will die and HtH will nowhere near bad as some think he is, before he storms against the oncoming mountain clans and gets 'burned' by the Burned Men (well not literally burned, but notice the connection with Loras). He's no Joffrey, nor Ramsay, but I suspect more of a Loras who is no true knight, but into it for his personal glory, and a Robert with women - promises and philandering, forgetting the women he charmed and his children along with it.

George does sometimes allow those who collaborate with the villains to mop up the other villains: Tyrion collaborating with Cersei but sending Slynt for the wall, Jaime collaborating with the regime and making parts of the RL more peaceful, Theon helping the surviving IB at Moat Cailin surrender, but you can feel it in your pinky toe that the collaboration is just warped and does not truly settle it. The North and the RL have now been set up into an arc for some serious wolf retribution - Nymeria's pack, BwB, Stannis and Jon. Winter has come. The prologue said to include Jeyne Westerling as a character according to George will be the gunshot setting it all in motion. And I just can't see LF stealing that away from the wolves with a Vale army and Sansa as his collaborator. There are two wolves in the Vale: Sansa and the Giant's Lance, and so they have to come into play in the Vale to do their clean up. These were the regions heavily featured in aGoT aside from KL. So, a mop up in the North, RL and Vale makes sense to me. 

You are correct that while Lysa was a puppet in LF's "loving" arms, she enjoyed the chaos and the destruction she helped to instigate. Her backstory is very sad, but she took it out on a lot of people who had nothing to do with - her cousins, Ned Stark, and even Cat, and all the common folk of those regions. The man who truly was responsible for it, died of old age in his bed, not ever aware of what was going on, and even able to apologize to her and make peace with her, believing Cat to be her. And she never felt any remorse for it. It makes you wonder what her last thoughts were in that regard, after LF pushed her.

Both in Lysa's arc, Tywin's and many other characters we see how George allows them to unleash their destruction, but does not let them savor it. Lysa has Sansa in her clutches to wed to SR, married to LF, her bannermen and their armies at beck and call. That's when she dies.

Tywin has sent Stannis running with his tail between his legs, Robb and Cat are destroyed, the rich Tyrells helping out, the hated son he does not wish to inherit anything he can send to the Wall (or have him beheaded), two VS heirloom swords, a minor and very malleable grandson Tommen for a king, being the Hand again in the most ideal control, and hailed as savior of the city... He almost has everything he wants (except for Jaime as his heir). And that's when he gets killed by his son on the privy.

The Goat? He finally has a castle all to himself.

Slynt? First he gets to be a lord of a legendary and largest castle out there, and even at the Wall he can taste being LC and take out another of those pesky wolves.

My scenario can give LF a sense of almost tasting his victory too. If my predicted scenario unfolds together with the news that Cersei's power has fallen by Aegon and allies, then he'll taste it even more. He'll probably even see the benefit of SR's death, and the avalanche taking out some inconvenient characters. And then HtH dies too, with Sansa already being supported by the remaining lords, and thus his for the taking. That's when he'll pay.

I also always had the feeling that Tyrion's promise to the mountain clans would come back into play. It's not even that subtle. But he's almost made us forget about them. And when you first meet them (Shagga and his crew), well you hope it doesn't happen. They are portrayed as crude, barbaric murderous road bandits, but yes Timett is a completely different ball-game. And I agree that is what they picked up the most from their adventures with Tyrion - how to organize and how to fight feudal lords. I also agree that you can almost feel Timett's resentment against being ordered around by Tyrion simmering underneath the surface. But he does it anyhow, because he sees it may serve him in the long run. But that and him leaving for the mountains instantly without even trying to get in touch with Tyrion is what makes me think that if Sansa were to end up in the hands of the mountain clans he's not going to deliver her back to Tyrion.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

And in terms of more immediate retribution, an avalanche could be seen--by the reader and possibly also the people of the Vale--as a judgment on Littlefinger for hoarding food. Especially if the avalanche wipes out/ruins the food stores--that could see LF's popularity and power decline quite sharply.

[Isobel Harper]

I don't recall if this has been proposed yet; if so then bear with me.

Instead of an avalanche, have you considered Giant's Lance actually breaking off during an earthquake and landing on the Gate's of the Moon?  I pulled these two quotes from your "Trail of the Red Stallion III" blog where you propose that Robin's collapse and seizure on the snow castle foreshadow a greater tragedy befalling the Gates of the Moon.

Then he began to shake. It started with no more than a little shivering, but within a few short heartbeats he had collapsed across the castle, his limbs flailing about violently. White towers and snowy bridges shattered and fell on all sides. Sansa stood horrified, but Petyr Baelish seized her cousin’s wrists and shouted for the maester. (aSoS, Sansa VII)

...

“A giant,” the boy whispered, weeping. “It wasn’t me, it was a giant hurt the castle… (aSoS, Sansa VII)

A giant destroys the castle.  Giant's Lance stands over the Gates of the Moon.  The Vale castles all have hidden sexual connotations behind them.  Giant's Lance falling upon the Gates of the Moon suits this, symbolizing a maid losing her virginity.  The "lance" breaks the "portcullis" which hides the "moon."  Giant's Lance symbolizes a penis, The Gates of the Moon, held by House Royce whose arms are a crescent moon behind a portcullis, symbolize a virgin and/or her hymen.  Tyrion makes a connection between portcullis and a hymen on his wedding night to Sansa:

He hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. "Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle."

The moon is an allusion made to womanhood made multiple times in the series: "moonblood," the goddess the Moon-Pale Maiden, the crescent moon during Sansa's first menstruation and Daenerys' miscarriage in ADwD.  (Curious, the crescent moon symbolizes Sansa's fertility but symbolizes Daenerys' lack of it.)

GRRM equates penises with swords (and lances) throughout the series.  John the Fiddler uses jousting as a euphemism of sex in The Mystery Knight.  The final forging of Lightbringer involves (at least in my mind) the conception of a child, with the sword thrust through Nissa Nissa's heart symbolizing the sexual act and her death from the sword symbolizing her death during childbirth.  Lady Dustin recalls the night Brandon Stark took her maidenhood to Theon and equates a penis with a sword.  "I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain."  And... (WoW spoiler)

Spoiler

...the twelve-foot lemoncake of Giant's Lance is, as many readers have already proposed, a depiction of LF's sexual feelings (erection) for Sansa.

What other sexual connotations do the Vale castles have?  The Eyrie is the home of House Arryn, "as high as honor."  The Eyrie is described multiple times as impregnable.  "Impregnable" is synonymous to "unconquerable," which is undoubtedly what Lysa and Sweetrobin meant when using the term.  But "impregnable" has a second definition: susceptible to impregnation.  Upon descent from the Eyrie, one eventually reaches Snow and Stone at its base - literally the wayncastles, figuratively descending from honor, producing bastards.  Snow is a bastard name of the North, Sansa's home; Stone is a bastard name of the Vale, Alayne's home.  Snow and Stone are at the base; bastards are sometimes described as "baseborn."

"May we enter the Vale?" Ser Donnel asked. The Waynwoods were ever ones for ceremony.

"In the name of Robert Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, True Warden of the East, I bid you enter freely, and charge you to keep his peace," Ser Brynden replied. "Come."

The custom of asking permission to enter the Vale parallels the game of come-into-my-castle, which appears to be something along the lines of our "Mother may I?"  One must come into a castle with permission.  The purpose of the game is to teach children courtesy.  Given the game's sexual connotation (castles are women, portcullis are hymens and/or vaginas, "to come" is, well, to have sexual release), one can conclude that the game also teaches that having permission to enter a woman is "courteous."  Tyrion equates come-into-my-castle with the lose of virginity during his and Sansa's wedding night:

He hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. "Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle."

In the snow castle scene, Baelish asks Sansa if he may come into her castle, the snow castle of Winterfell that she's building.  Note that he does not technically receive consent. 

As a matter of fact, the snow castle scene is full of sexual allusions, especially in relation to a maid losing her virginity.

Dawn entered her garden like a thief.

Dawn is also the name of a sword.  When the Thief is inside the Maiden, it is considered a good time to steal a woman according to wildling customs.

It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound.

Innocence is depicted here.  Sansa even later describes the snow as "tast[ing] of innocence." The snow is untouched, the world is "pure."  The colors of the world are absolutes, much how Sansa sees the world in AGoT.  Then Sansa "tears" into the snow. 

"May I come into your castle, my lady?"

Sansa was wary. "Don't break it. Be . . ."

". . . gentle?" He [Littlefinger] smiled.

And then we have...

They made a tall tower together, kneeling side by side to roll it smooth, and when they'd raised it Sansa stuck her fingers through the top, grabbed a handful of snow, and flung it full in his face. Petyr yelped, as the snow slid down under his collar.

In this latter scene, besides the allusion of snow being ejaculate, I believe it also foreshadows Sansa's eventually "throwing LF's offer is his face," so to speak.  That is, declining his offer to become his lover.

As ever, I've gone quite off on a tangent.  I hope I haven't repeated too much that's already been discussed.  I haven't read the whole thread in a while, and don't recall everything that's been discussed.

As to what all of these sexual allusions might mean, I'm not too sure.  But I do feel that they foreshadow something.  Perhaps just the disaster, which itself has sexual connotations?  Perhaps Sansa loses her virginity the night of the disaster?  Or perhaps sexual allusions will persist in her chapters, as LF becomes closer and closer to attempting to take her virginity?

[Seams]

8 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Instead of an avalanche, have you considered Giant's Lance actually breaking off during an earthquake and landing on the Gate's of the Moon?  ...

A giant destroys the castle.  Giant's Lance stands over the Gates of the Moon.  The Vale castles all have hidden sexual connotations behind them.  Giant's Lance falling upon the Gates of the Moon suits this, symbolizing a maid losing her virginity.  The "lance" breaks the "portcullis" which hides the "moon."  Giant's Lance symbolizes a penis, The Gates of the Moon, held by House Royce whose arms are a crescent moon behind a portcullis, symbolize a virgin and/or her hymen.  ...

 

 

This is fascinating, Isobel. Nice work.

I would think this analysis applies even if the Giant's Lance doesn't suffer an earthquake, although Sweet Robin's trembling during the destruction of the snow castle does suggest that. Even if it's just a matter of some stone falling along with the snowslide in sweetsunray's predicted avalanche, this analysis of the sexual symbolism would still apply.

There is enough beheading of giants in the books, though, to almost guarantee that the top of the mountain will fall. The Eyrie and the waterfall are described as sitting on the "shoulder" of the mountain, so they and anything above them are likened to a head. We have seen Sandor Clegane lose his head (although he may have a substitute under Robert Strong's helmet). Sansa beheads Sweet Robin's doll when it damages her snow castle. The Baelish family sigil is only the head of the Titan of Braavos. Although Tyrion currently retains his head, many little people were beheaded as people sought to cash in on the reward Cersei offered for Tyrion's head.

If the "penetration" of the moon gate by rocks and snow symbolizes Sansa's fate at the hands of a giant, though, we are left with the question of which giant? Maester Aemon says that Tyrion is a giant. Gregor Clegane is the Mountain that Rides, although he may now be Robert Strong. If Cersei directed him to rape Sansa, he would probably do it. Or maybe he would do it to goad Sandor Clegane into a fight. As you point out, Littlefinger (with the giant in his family sigil) also seems to have non-fatherly feelings toward Sansa. Those seem the likeliest "giant" candidates, if this scenario with the Giant's Lance is to be taken as a hint of things to come (so to speak).

But there's also creepy little Sweet Robin himself, I suppose. He was literally the "giant" that destroyed Sansa's snow castle, although he denied that he did it or that he was the giant. He's probably too young, even by Westeros standards, but you never know what GRRM might come up with.

Of course, GRRM could surprise us with impregnation of Sansa that is not literal; not linked to any of the "known" giants. If Sansa is symbolically impregnated by the avalanche at the Vale, she could "give birth" in a way similar to the hatching of Dany's dragons. If so, I suspect her offspring will be a monster of some kind. Dany has dragons, Catelyn Stark had wargs, Cersei had Joffrey - it seems like Sansa could follow in the footsteps of these mother figures and have some kind of monster of her own. (Selyse Florent might also fit this category, if Shireen's greyscale qualifies her as a monster, and Melisandre's shadow babies probably also meet the definition. Does Sweet Robin also seem like a monster? I guess the argument that he might count as a "giant" would support that definition.)

Does all of this point toward the emergence of a snow dragon from the ruins of Winterfell? You compared snow to sperm, so that might be the logical offspring. And the ruins of Sansa's snow castle might hint at that as the birthplace of Sansa's monster baby.

But I'm getting into speculative territory, I realize. Thanks for the well-documented case, strengthening the original post (in my opinion) and adding a layer of additional interest.

[Modesty Lannister]

An outstanding OP. I agree with everything. If I may add something, it can be my OP on a similar topic. It may give you more ideas: