corbon Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 By common sense you are surely right.A crown prince absolutely needs some servants and companions to travel hundreds of miles (he likely even needs to go across war-zone).Somebody had to arrange for his living and food and horse on his way. Catelyn travelled further with just a single companion.However, this is a fantasy book, so it does not need to be practical. GRRM is very very good at the practical. Not so good at travel times and distances (by his own choice), but very good at 'daily life' practicalities and the way people act and interact.For example, I am pretty sure there should be some servants in TOJ to take care of Lyanna and 3 KG, cooking, cleaning, etc.But they were not mentioned at all. They all knew Lyanna and rhaegar had a child just like Reed and Ned. But they are all ignored. Which doesn't mean they weren't there, just that they weren't part of the very limited information we have on the ToJ.But anyway, from the view of this fantasy book, I believe rhaegar traveled by himself.why? because he can not take anybody from TOJ. all people in TOJ knew where is TOJ and how to find it. Aerys can ask them for the location of TOJ. They will need to answer the king the truth. especially three KG. This is the main reason Rhaegar left all 3 KG in TOJ. Not just to guard Lyanna (he can send some more men to TOJ to replace three KG later or even from somewhere else, like Starfall)But if he took even one KG with him back to KL, then Aerys will know where Lyanna is. Agreed. But he can travel some or most of the way with one or more KG, he just can;t let them come all the way to KL, within range of receiving an order from Aerys. The people that argue he did have KG with him have strong points. But we don't have any real clues either way.Aerys will likely go get Lyanna and then both Lyanna and Rhaegar's savior baby will be in big trouble. Rhaegar can not afford to lose this baby. This is his ultimate goal. Well, a significant and necessary milepost towards his ultimate goal. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 There is absolutely nothing to tell us they are his sworn shields. They are kingsguard. By default they serve the king. Aerys can ask them to guard rhaegar, but they do not belong to Rhaegar. Good fan-fic by the way.IMHO, (pure fanfic too), it is more likely that Aerys assigned Arthur to rhaegar firstly, then after he got married and got two royal children, especially baby Aegon, then Aerys assigned Whent to his family. But rhaegar took both KG with him to elope with Lyanna and left his family unprotected by KG. now you know what a bad father rhaegar is, he stole his children's guard to protect his lover and then caused his children die brutally. To which Rhaegar made certain the 2KGs would not be bound by Aerys, who gives the assignment and orders to the Kingsguards..According to you, Oswell, would not be true KG, he would not abandon Elia (Aegon technically) if Aerys gave him the order to protect them, actually cared for the baby having KG protection. Oswell would be mocked by Arthur and Gerold, and would not be trustworthy for Rhaegar to depend his secret (his and Lyanna's) and would even suggest Rhaegar to not easily accept Oswell if he is so easy in detaching himself from the king's order (to protect Aegon) versus going along with Rhaegar.I theorize...It's self-evident that Aerys assigned Arthur and Oswell to protect Rhaegar. KGs do not make their own orders. Rhaegar could have asked his Father to order Arthur to be his sworn shield since the moment Arthur was knighted and given the white cloak. Reason? he was Rhaegar's best friend.Now, how about Oswell??Well, one of the reason why Aerys assigned Oswell to be another of Rhaegar's sworn shield is that he did not fully trust Arthur (and Rhaegar to an extent, since he choose Arthur) during the later years after Duskendale event, where his paranoia starting was obvious, thus to be a spy for the king when the time calls. Oswell was neutral, not really Rhaegar's friend but willing to take the order from the king to be Rhaegar's bodyguard. As the years go by, Aerys becoming more paranoid and the line between Father and son drift further, Oswell may very well noticed that Rhaegar is more the man he would want to protect. Thus it's not a far fetched at all to conclude that it was Oswell that gave in to Rhaegar and help be the go-between to set up the tourney at Harrenhal with his brother, Walter. Another reason could be Aerys ordering Oswell to be Rhaegar's sworn shield, including obeying Rhaegar's orders, when he assigned Rhaegar to find out and investigate tKotLT, who the king was angry with and had cause to be concern of another Smiling Knight returning.By the way, fanfic is normal as long it's within the narrative of the story. We're all theorizing, including you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 To which Rhaegar made certain the 2KGs would not be bound by Aerys, who gives the assignment and orders to the Kingsguards..According to you, Oswell, would not be true KG, he would not abandon Elia (Aegon technically) if Aerys gave him the order to protect them, actually cared for the baby having KG protection. Oswell would be mocked by Arthur and Gerold, and would not be trustworthy for Rhaegar to depend his secret (his and Lyanna's) and would even suggest Rhaegar to not easily accept Oswell if he is so easy in detaching himself from the king's order (to protect Aegon) versus going along with Rhaegar.I theorize...It's self-evident that Aerys assigned Arthur and Oswell to protect Rhaegar. KGs do not make their own orders. Rhaegar could have asked his Father to order Arthur to be his sworn shield since the moment Arthur was knighted and given the white cloak. Reason? he was Rhaegar's best friend.Now, how about Oswell??Well, one of the reason why Aerys assigned Oswell to be another of Rhaegar's sworn shield is that he did not fully trust Arthur (and Rhaegar to an extent, since he choose Arthur) during the later years after Duskendale event, where his paranoia starting was obvious, thus to be a spy for the king when the time calls. Oswell was neutral, not really Rhaegar's friend but willing to take the order from the king to be Rhaegar's bodyguard. As the years go by, Aerys becoming more paranoid and the line between Father and son drift further, Oswell may very well noticed that Rhaegar is more the man he would want to protect. Thus it's not a far fetched at all to conclude that it was Oswell that gave in to Rhaegar and help be the go-between to set up the tourney at Harrenhal with his brother, Walter. Another reason could be Aerys ordering Oswell to be Rhaegar's sworn shield, including obeying Rhaegar's orders, when he assigned Rhaegar to find out and investigate tKotLT, who the king was angry with and had cause to be concern of another Smiling Knight returning.By the way, fanfic is normal as long it's within the narrative of the story. We're all theorizing, including you.I said very clearly my idea about Aegon and Oswell thing is "pure fanfic too". Pure imagination. But there is one thing for sure, we were never told Arthur and Oswell were rhaegar's sworn guards. I do not even remember Arys was called as sworn guard of Myrcella. (correct me if I am wrong)A sworn guard sounds like this guard was bonded to you by an holy oath. Kingsguard was bonded to king by an oath. technically I do not think they can be bonded to another man by another oath again. It is like you can not have two full-time bosses at the same time. Kingsguard is king's sworn guard. They can be assigned as another man's guard by king for some time, like Mycella and rhaegar, but KG can not become their sworn guards. -----------------------fanfic------------There are only 7 KG, it is sort of hard to believe a single rhaegar will have two of them. It makes more sense that he received one more KG after he built his own family and had two royal children. Honestly, Arthur seems to be a youngest KG before Jaime, I imagine he was assigned to rhaegar who is similar age as him. Then they started their friendship. Then rhaegar had children and wife, then he got one more (Whent), especially after he moved to DS and lived separately. I doubt he asked Arthur for himself when Arthur took the white (he is not rhaenyra, and he is not his Criston cole). I think Arthur was simply assigned to him due to age. Then they became friends. And yes, if Arthur and Oswell were assigned to rhaegar and his royal family, he did steal them for his eloping with Lyanna and left his family unprotected by KG. In fact, he stole his family's KG to guard his mistress!Poor little Aegon. So Elia+Aegon+Rhaenys combined, less important than one Lyanna for rhaegar. Now you know how cold-blooded one husband can be if he loved a new woman. Like Henry VIII. His family means nothing for him compared to his new woman and new child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 PE,Aerys could assign KGs for Rhaegar and commanded them to obey Rhaegar's orders.Their sworn oaths are still relevant still and bond by their duty as Kingsguards (to the King). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 PE,Aerys could assign KGs for Rhaegar and commanded them to obey Rhaegar's orders.Their sworn oaths are still relevant still and bond by their duty as Kingsguards (to the King).I did not get you. King of course can ask his kg to obey another one. But this can not make KG become another man's sworn guard. Kg sworn to king and obey king's order, including order KG to obey another person. If king took his KG back, then KG will not obey that person any more. There was no holy oath between this person and KG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I did not get you. King of course can ask his kg to obey another one. But this can not make KG become another man's sworn guard. Kg sworn to king and obey king's order, including order KG to obey another person. If king took his KG back, then KG will not obey that person any more. There was no holy oath between this person and KG. When they are assigned they are automatically sworn to protect whoever they are assigned to, what is the problem?? Once Myrcella reached Braavos, she ought to be safe. He was sending Ser Arys Oakheart as her sworn shield, and had engaged the Braavosi to bring her the rest of the way to Sunspear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I think a sworn sword is somewhat different to a sworn shield. Sworn shields seem to be rare-ish (ok, not that rare) and dedicated specifically to a single person, usually a non-combatant. Sworn swords are common as muck, found in almost every army and Lord's retinue.It is clear that a Knight of the KG can be a Sworn Shield if so allocated by his superiors. I very very much doubt that stops him being a KG whose first allegiance is to the King, not the person he is sworn to shield.Known examples of Sworn Shields:Ser Arys Oakheart - MyrcellaThe Hound - Joffrey (Baratheon) LannisterOsney Kettleblack - TommenJorah Mormont - Viserys, but he abandoned Viserys to be Daenerys' Sworn ShieldSer Gascoyne of the Greenblood - Prince TrystaneSer Barristan Selmy - DaenerysSer Malegorn, Ser Benethon, Ser Narbert, Ser Patrek, Ser Dorden, Ser Brus - Queen Selyse has a lot of them!The Prince has one in the Mystery KnightSer Criston Cole - Young Princess Rhaenyra (later replaced by Ser Erryk CargyllSer Alester Tyrell - Gwayne VOrys Baratheon - King Aegon ILords Piper and Deddings had theirs with them when they were destroyed by Vermithor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I think a sworn sword is somewhat different to a sworn shield. Sworn shields seem to be rare-ish (ok, not that rare) and dedicated specifically to a single person, usually a non-combatant. Sworn swords are common as muck, found in almost every army and Lord's retinue.It is clear that a Knight of the KG can be a Sworn Shield if so allocated by his superiors. I very very much doubt that stops him being a KG whose first allegiance is to the King, not the person he is sworn to shield.Known examples of Sworn Shields:Ser Arys Oakheart - MyrcellaThe Hound - Joffrey (Baratheon) LannisterOsney Kettleblack - TommenJorah Mormont - Viserys, but he abandoned Viserys to be Daenerys' Sworn ShieldSer Gascoyne of the Greenblood - Prince TrystaneSer Barristan Selmy - DaenerysSer Malegorn, Ser Benethon, Ser Narbert, Ser Patrek, Ser Dorden, Ser Brus - Queen Selyse has a lot of them!The Prince has one in the Mystery KnightSer Criston Cole - Young Princess Rhaenyra (later replaced by Ser Erryk CargyllSer Alester Tyrell - Gwayne VOrys Baratheon - King Aegon ILords Piper and Deddings had theirs with them when they were destroyed by Vermithor.Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, Ser Oswell - Jon And Ghost Ghost padded after him, a white shadow at his side.His (Joffrey) two white shadows were always with him; Balon Swann and Mandon Moore, beautiful in their pale plate.Dany glimpsed Ser Barristan sliding closer, a white shadow at her side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, Ser Oswell - Jon And Ghost Ghost padded after him, a white shadow at his side.His (Joffrey) two white shadows were always with him; Balon Swann and Mandon Moore, beautiful in their pale plate.Dany glimpsed Ser Barristan sliding closer, a white shadow at her side. again, nowhere said arthur and oswell are sworn shields of rhaegar. Absolutely nothing about jon snow and his "sworn shield". It does look like KG can be a sworn shield for a royal member (Arys and myrcella), but nowhere said this about rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I am not sure that he was good at explaining things. I think that it would had been something like:"Yada yada yada 3 dragon heads yada yada yada prophecy yada yada yada the prince that was promised" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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