How did Rhaegar explain to his father about 3KG?

[purple-eyes]

I do not think Arthur and Oswell are Rhaegar's personal guards. They are Kingsguard so they serve king. 

And Gerold Hightower who is the lord commander, absolutely works for Aerys. 

We know Aerys was super crazy that he would only feel comfortable to have KG around him. 

In the peace time, he probably can let his son use two of them, but during rebellion, he will surely ask rhaegar about three of them. 

How did Rheagar explain to him?

Daddy, my new woman is much more important than you, mother, my wife, my children, my brother so she needs three best KG?

Or daddy, if you want me to help you to deal with this war, you had better keep your mouth shut and be OK to have only Jaime with you?

Now I do understand why GRRM is not planning to write a novel for RR and false spring. 

Because he needs it to happen like this but it has too many holes so he can only leave it vague. even himself can not make everything has sense. 

I can make a long list for these things which does not make sense at all:

1. Why rhaegar needs to publicly crown Lyanna and bring all the attention to himself? (no matter how much love he had in Lyanna, this is too stupid and completely unnecessary, try to imagine a married president woo another woman in front of his wife during the Olympics opening ceremony with every camera focusing on him)

2. Why did not Aerys try to fetch Lyanna back as a hostage? (not necessarily White Bull, he can send other people later)

3. How did rhaegar explain to his daddy about kidnapping and Lyanna (come on, she is the sister of the rebellion leader, very suspicious)?

4. How did Rhaegar explain about 3 KG missing?

5. Why did rhaegar and Lyanna remain so silent after all of the mess?

6. Why the hell Ned only bring 6 men with him to TOJ when he has thousands of them. Seriously, if he took 10, or 15, then it will be a easy victory. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WolfgangII]

I understand that there is a lot of holes in the story, but we don't have the whole story yet. Be patient, (The Winds of) Winter is Coming.

About your doubts, I will try to bring an explanation or add my own doubts.

1. I'll say the gest was misunderstood. Maybe he was trying to woo the Starks, not just Lyanna, but Brandon and Ned took it wrong. Still, a risky move, yes.

2. We don't know what Rhaegar told Hightower when they met at the ToJ and why the latter didn't return to King's Landing. It very likely Aerys never knew where Rhaegar and Lyanna were before the former travel back to the capital.

3. It is suspicious, but Rhaegar could denied everything to Aerys, and in his madness he would believe that the Starks rebelled for nothing. We know that Aerys trusted Rhaegar by giving him command of the royal army, so is not out of the realm of possibilities that Rhaegar and Aerys were in league in their actions, or at least understood what the other wanted.

4. I don't buy the explanation that Dayne, Whent and Hightower left their king in the middle of a war, even if the crown prince demanded they stay to protect their new royal family. I also don't think the four men were instigated against Aerys. That is the big plothole. The only explanation I found is that they assessed the situation wrong, that they never believed Rhaegar would lost the battle and that Aery's enemies will breach into King's Landing.

5. Given the hard time Hightower and Ned have to find the ToJ, I'll say the place is very unaccesible, and the people there didn't have many tools to learn news or speak to somebody. Maybe it was a voluntarily thing, maybe they were prisioners there.

6. Ned wanted to keep Lyanna's situation a secret. Maybe he had his suspicious or learned something during his inquires. But is in-characther that he only chose close friends in his mission, rather than a whole army. They can talk, and Ned presumed discretion was necessary.

[CJ McLannister]

I'm not sure Aerys had any idea what was going on.  Was anyone around him giving him true counsel, or where they all plotters and lickspittles?  Besides the alchemists, did anyone really prefer Aerys of Rhaegar at that point?

[Lord Fauntleroy]

You have to remember that Papa Aerys was mad. He probably has his own internal reasoning that makes no sense to the sound minded. 

 

Rhaegar may have played on that.

[purple-eyes]

You have to remember that Papa Aerys was mad. He probably has his own internal reasoning that makes no sense to the sound minded. 

 

Rhaegar may have played on that.

aerys was not that mad during the rebellion. Everything he did made sense. 

Kept elia as hostage, kept Jaime as hostage. Replaced hands. Summoned rhaegar. Shipped his wife and son to DS. Even built those wildfires to destory everybody together and leave nothing to robert. 

I am sure he talked with rhaegar about lyanna and three KG and ask for explaination. 

 

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Maybe Rhaegar, like, lied? "Lyanna's dead, I sent Gerold & Co. to Dragonstone". Or something like that.

Re: the blue roses crown thing, call me crazy, but I think GRRM actually thought that one over and has a good reason, why, to be disclosed. And the same goes for the "disappeared from the radar for a year" thing. You seriously believe those details slipped his mind? They kinda stick out. All in all, your objections hold up only if the series never gets finished. Well, if the series never gets finished, the sense of dissatisfaction will be universal, and the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna won't be the biggest reason, why.

Re: Ned and his six companions, you say that fifteen would've been better. Would they? It depends on the resistance. If they surrender without fight, there's no difference. If they're a couple of squires and half a dozen of servants, there's no difference. And if the opposition is a reasonably fortified keep with a crew of twenty or thirty, it again makes no difference. It's possible Ned didn't expect he would have to fight at all, with Rhaegar dead, Aerys dead, when Mace Tyrell and his bigass host dipped their banners without even token resistance.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

aerys was not that mad during the rebellion. Everything he did made sense. 

Even built those wildfires to destory everybody together and leave nothing to robert. 

 

 

 

 

because that makes sense. "If I can't have it no one will!" Said nearly every bratty 5 year old ever.

 

Also thats totally a Super Villain trope.

[CJ McLannister]

aerys was not that mad during the rebellion. Everything he did made sense. 

He set people on fire in order to get erections.  

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

He set people on fire in order to get erections.  

well e.D is a serious condition. 

 

Just in case no one sees what I did there I lower cased the E you know...

[purple-eyes]

He set people on fire in order to get erections.  

That is his personal sex life. 

For his political actions, he is not mad most of the time. 

And to be fair, he did not do it in order to have sex. He burn people for some reasons (bad reasons though), then he was turned on. 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

because that makes sense. "If I can't have it no one will!" Said nearly every bratty 5 year old ever.

 

Also thats totally a Super Villain trope.

it is super villain and anti human. 

But even in real history, some people indeed did it. It has a reason behind it for us to understand, although a bad reason. 

[purple-eyes]

Maybe Rhaegar, like, lied? "Lyanna's dead, I sent Gerold & Co. to Dragonstone". Or something like that.

Re: the blue roses crown thing, call me crazy, but I think GRRM actually thought that one over and has a good reason, why, to be disclosed. And the same goes for the "disappeared from the radar for a year" thing. You seriously believe those details slipped his mind? They kinda stick out. All in all, your objections hold up only if the series never gets finished. Well, if the series never gets finished, the sense of dissatisfaction will be universal, and the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna won't be the biggest reason, why.

Re: Ned and his six companions, you say that fifteen would've been better. Would they? It depends on the resistance. If they surrender without fight, there's no difference. If they're a couple of squires and half a dozen of servants, there's no difference. And if the opposition is a reasonably fortified keep with a crew of twenty or thirty, it again makes no difference. It's possible Ned didn't expect he would have to fight at all, with Rhaegar dead, Aerys dead, when Mace Tyrell and his bigass host dipped their banners without even token resistance.

Come on. 

If there were two three more guards in toj, then howland and Ned will be dead dead already. 

You are going to rescue your sister from your enemy who was a crown prince in an uncertain location, you only brought six people? He only had six men to trust? 

This did not make sense at all. 

It is just for plot use. 

Grrm wanted a epic and poetic three versus seven fight. 

He can not just let Ned bring 10 men to easily kill all three KG. 

Then too many figures will be involved in the central mystery. Thus it is not good for writing. One howland is enough. 

 

 

 

 

[Bironic]

Maybe he lied to Aerys and said something like: The KG helds Lyanna captive, so in case that the Starks are winning the war, we can threaten them with killing off lyanna. Or negotiate something with them to get rid off the Baratheons etc. Given that Aerys already blackmailed the Dornish by saying that Elia is in his hands, Aerys would have liked the thought of threatening to burn Lyanna if Eddard doesn't follow his orders.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Come on. 

If there were two three more guards in toj, then howland and Ned will be dead dead already. 

You are going to rescue your sister from your enemy who was a crown prince in an uncertain location, you only brought six people? He only had six men to trust? 

This did not make sense at all. 

It is just for plot use. 

Grrm wanted a epic and poetic three versus seven fight. 

He can not just let Ned bring 10 men to easily kill all three KG. 

Then too many figures will be involved in the central mystery. Thus it is not good for writing. One howland is enough. 

 

 

 

 

i don't see your point. Then again my blinders go on the moment some one says "thats bad writing" (as that's matter of opinion not fact) 

But my understanding of what your saying is this: if Ned brought 10 men it would be more realistic and the out come would be (in essence) the same just more people alive to know about The Tower of Joy? And everything was just for plot? 

But plot is an essential part of writing. 

Plot is the series of actions your characters take to move the story forward. You have to choose these actions carefully. In real life, things often appear to just happen. In your novel, nothing “just happens”; everything that you show must mean something to at least one of your characters. That meaning is what gives your reader a powerful emotional experience.~ quoted from writing for dummies. 

Idk maybe it's just me but lately I've seen alot of this let's hate on this or that literary device when they don't have a clear understanding of what it truly means. To me it's almost like how little children regurgitate their parents political views with out profoundly know what it means.

[purple-eyes]

i don't see your point. Then again my blinders go on the moment some one says "thats bad writing" (as that's matter of opinion not fact) 

But my understanding of what your saying is this: if Ned brought 10 men it would be more realistic and the out come would be (in essence) the same just more people alive to know about The Tower of Joy? And everything was just for plot? 

But plot is an essential part of writing. 

Plot is the series of actions your characters take to move the story forward. You have to choose these actions carefully. In real life, things often appear to just happen. In your novel, nothing “just happens”; everything that you show must mean something to at least one of your characters. That meaning is what gives your reader a powerful emotional experience.~ quoted from writing for dummies. 

Idk maybe it's just me but lately I've seen alot of this let's hate on this or that literary device when they don't have a clear understanding of what it truly means. To me it's almost like how little children regurgitate their parents political views with out profoundly know what it means.

My point is, in reality, Ned will not bring only six men with him for this mission. 

It did not make sense. 

But for the sake of story, he had to. Because the central mystery can not be known by too many people. 

 

 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

My point is, in reality, Ned will not bring only six men with him for this mission. 

It did not make sense. 

But for the sake of story, he had to. Because the central mystery can not be known by too many people. 

 

 

that subjective. Because to me it does make sense. I see it like this: he didn't imagine there would be a fight. He was going to go alone but he friends were like "F%€* that! We are going with you." You know how many times my friends do that to me? Alot 

And for the sake of argument how do we know that wasn't his "Pack" like Arya has a pack?  Or Brandon(might have) when he died? 

 

Hell the argument could be the opposite. He brought 20 men with him but the kings guard live up to their name and slice them all up like butter but die to wounds and only Ned and reed live. Reed because he hid and Ned because they (his men) refused to let their liege lord get hurt. That's subjectively believable too. Not only from the story world but from ours as we've seen worse odds win or lose.

[purple-eyes]

that subjective. Because to me it does make sense. I see it like this: he didn't imagine there would be a fight. He was going to go alone but he friends were like "F%€* that! We are going with you." You know how many times my friends do that to me? Alot 

And for the sake of argument how do we know that wasn't his "Pack" like Arya has a pack?  Or Brandon(might have) when he died? 

 

Hell the argument could be the opposite. He brought 20 men with him but the kings guard live up to their name and slice them all up like butter but die to wounds and only Ned and reed live. Reed because he hid and Ned because they (his men) refused to let their liege lord get hurt. That's subjectively believable too. Not only from the story world but from ours as we've seen worse odds win or lose.

Sure, Ned decided that his enemy will open their arms and welcome him warmly and return his sister who disappeared for almost 2 years. 

What you said in fact proved my point. 

No matter how many men Ned brought, GRRM will let all of them die for various reasons, only Ned and Reed survived.

If he brought 20, then there would be some extra guards in TOJ to kill them. If he brought only 3, then there would be just Arthur dayne there. (like the show). the ending will be same. 

Why?

Because for the sake of the story, only Ned and Reed should survive. 

But this does not make sense for real event. 

A more reasonable choice will be that Ned brought a larger group with him. He would tell himself: I need to have some helpers, there are probably some guards around Lyanna who was left by rhaegar. Six men may not be enough. I do not want to run this risk that we will be defeated by them. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Sure, Ned decided that his enemy will open their arms and welcome him warmly and return his sister who disappeared for almost 2 years. 

That actually is a perfectly reasonable assumption, considering that Mace Tyrell did just that, and that "why there was a fight at all" is among the most often asked questions on this forum.

[purple-eyes]

That actually is a perfectly reasonable assumption, considering that Mace Tyrell did just that, and that "why there was a fight at all" is among the most often asked questions on this forum.

Mace did that because Ned brought a large army there. 

You think if Ned brought, say, 500 riders, then mace and tarly and redwyne will just bend their knees?

They would try to defeat Ned and take their opportunities since Robert was injured and rebellion also lost a lot of people on trident and DS fleets are still intact. Another Blackwater battle will be right there. Viserys will be promised to little margery and unborn Dany will be promised to one of Doran's kids and Dorne will be right there to help.  

Ned knew he needed a large army to lift the siege. 

he should also know he needed more than a handful of people to face whoever may guard Lyanna.

 

 

 

[John Suburbs]

I suspect Ned knew all along exactly why Rhaegar made off with Lyanna and by the time he arrived at the ToJ, he had learned not only where she was being kept but who was guarding her and why. So he only took his most trusted bannermen whom he could swear to secrecy so as to maintain all the secrets that came down with the tower.