Significance of Arya & Sansa Losing Their Wolves

[Maxxine]

So we all know Sansa and Arya both lose their wolves around the same time. I think this is very significant in regards to what happens to each of them in the end and how they, to a certain extent, have similarities in the arcs. First they both have to deny their "Starkness" and adopt aliases. I think this has to do with the loss of their wolves, at least from a figurative standpoint. The difference is Sansa's wolf is dead and Arya's wolf is still out there. This distinction me to my prediction about their outcomes at the end of the series. Sansa will be irreversibly corrupted by Petyr and whether she lives or dies she will never be a Stark (in the symbolic sense) again. She will never return Winterfell and she will never be reunited with her remaining Stark family members. I think this argument is bolstered by Robert Arryn just smashing her snow replica of Winterfell and when Bran laments how Sansa has lost her wolf.

Arya, on the other hand, while seeming like she is on a darker path can still be saved because Nymeria is still alive and is keeping Arya from entirely forgetting her Starkness. This is why Arya cannot fully become "no one" as a Faceless Man and can't bring herself to let go of Needle. Note that Sansa doesn't seem to have a problem transitioning to Alayne than Arya has transitioning even though Arya has had to adopt many different aliases she can never fully let go of Arya Stark. The presence of Nymeria will keep Arya from becoming completely lost. Accordingly, she will find her back Winterfell and her remaining brothers (and possibly Nymeria) and become a Stark again.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

What if it means that Sansa will get married and not be a "Stark", or just that Rob cut here out of the will. Arya is seemingly just a little lost, but she can still skinchange (seeing through a cats eyes) while Sansa likely lost the ability with Lady. Lady's execution is also the betrayal by Ned that sets up Sansa running to the Queen and basically getting Ned killed.

[Maxxine]

What if it means that Sansa will get married and not be a "Stark", or just that Rob cut here out of the will. Arya is seemingly just a little lost, but she can still skinchange (seeing through a cats eyes) while Sansa likely lost the ability with Lady. Lady's execution is also the betrayal by Ned that sets up Sansa running to the Queen and basically getting Ned killed.

This is why I said a Stark in the symbolic sense and not literally. As a woman she presumably wouldn't have kept the last name because she would've gotten married, a literal Stark. When I say she won't be a Stark I mean in the symbolically as in all Starks seem to have this honor code and this way of thinking and will always be able to come home to Winterfell. I think she is going to irretrievably lose that side of her. And that's my point about Arya. She still has that connection to her Starkness through Nymeria and her wolf dreams. I think the skinchanging through cats is a different issue and more of a special attribute of Arya's. And I don't consider Ned killing Lady a betrayal. What choice did he have and had Sansa not lied to begin with Lady wouldn't have died.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Oh I agree Sansa brought it on herself, but even Ned knows it was a mistake to kill Lady before he died.  Lady was innocent, and "sent by the old gods".

 

I also can't get over the very beginning of GoT when it says that come spring they'll find Arya frozen with her needle in her hand...

[purple-eyes]

All dire wolves and dragons will die in the end, I think. 

Just like all elves will be gone in the end of lotr. 

Magic will be gone and new age will come. 

 

[SevasTra82]

All dire wolves and dragons will die in the end, I think. 

Just like all elves will be gone in the end of lotr. 

Magic will be gone and new age will come. 

 

That's kind of the opposite that's happening though.  Magic has been long gone from the world for thousands of years and it is just *now* starting to trickle back into Westeros.  I find it hard to believe that GRRM would meticulously and carefully bring magic back into the world only to rip it away once again.  I think Magic is coming back, and at the end of it all, it will be there to stay (although nothing like the old days still).

I do think the Dragons will all wind up dead, but I don't think so for the Direwolves.  Dragons are mythical creatures, but Direwolves are just really large wolves that live north of the Wall.  Don't see any reason why they would all die out.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It's a difficult symbolism to decipher, if there is one that is; because, losing the wolves was necessary plot wise and could be explained in plot terms alone (though I tend more towards the idea of some underline symbolism).

I was thinking about the notion of a sacrifice in order to open the "third eye", like Bran losing his legs and all that goes with it. Sansa route is the opposite maybe, she loses her magic connection so that she can dedicate her path to politics, to leave her with no other means but her mind? I am not sure, but I think there might be a symmetry there.

Arya is the trickster, so she never goes all the way; notice, she's not permanently blind when she gets to skinchange cats, while at the same time she does not complete her blind training by using this newfound magic skill... Arya is both here and there, she could be the mediate between words. This might be reflected in losing her wolf but not really.

Just some passing thoughts, anyway.

[purple-eyes]

That's kind of the opposite that's happening though.  Magic has been long gone from the world for thousands of years and it is just *now* starting to trickle back into Westeros.  I find it hard to believe that GRRM would meticulously and carefully bring magic back into the world only to rip it away once again.  I think Magic is coming back, and at the end of it all, it will be there to stay (although nothing like the old days still).

I do think the Dragons will all wind up dead, but I don't think so for the Direwolves.  Dragons are mythical creatures, but Direwolves are just really large wolves that live north of the Wall.  Don't see any reason why they would all die out.

true. I forgot there were more these wolves outside the wall. 

(Why nobody pick up one pup and raise them? People come in and out of wall a lot. Wildling must have chance to find and raise them.)

Maybe wolves will survive for a longer time. But dragons will all die I agree. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

 When I say she won't be a Stark I mean in the symbolically as in all Starks seem to have this honor code and this way of thinking and will always be able to come home to Winterfell. I think she is going to irretrievably lose that side of her.

Sorry but no. There is no such thing as "Starkness" and some "honor code" that they all share only if they are true Starks. Sansa is just as much a Stark as any of them, she was raised in the same home by the same parents as the rest of them, she was taught as much by her mother and father as the others.

Plenty of Starks never had direwolves nor were they skinchangers and they lived in places other than Winterfell and that never stopped them from being regarded as Starks.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Sorry but no. There is no such thing as "Starkness" and some "honor code" that they all share only if they are true Starks. Sansa is just as much a Stark as any of them, she was raised in the same home by the same parents as the rest of them, she was taught as much by her mother and father as the others.

Plenty of Starks never had direwolves nor were they skinchangers and they lived in places other than Winterfell and that never stopped them from being regarded as Starks.

 

but having a direwolf is proof of "Starkness" to paraphrase the Lord Manderly of Whiteharbor, after all you have fake Starks like Jayne and Alayne running around!!! Haha 

[Mladen]

This is why I said a Stark in the symbolic sense and not literally. As a woman she presumably wouldn't have kept the last name because she would've gotten married, a literal Stark. When I say she won't be a Stark I mean in the symbolically as in all Starks seem to have this honor code and this way of thinking and will always be able to come home to Winterfell. I think she is going to irretrievably lose that side of her. And that's my point about Arya. She still has that connection to her Starkness through Nymeria and her wolf dreams. I think the skinchanging through cats is a different issue and more of a special attribute of Arya's. And I don't consider Ned killing Lady a betrayal. What choice did he have and had Sansa not lied to begin with Lady wouldn't have died.

1. Believe it or not, not all Starks are honorable. Ned clearly distinguishes himself from the old Kings in the North, even his own siblings. Som who was the true Stark here? Ned? Or Brandon? Or can it be both? Just like with Sansa and Arya. The fact they are so different, doesn't mean that one is not Stark. They just represent the two sides of the same coin. No one can sensibly claim that Arya has some high code of honor like Ned.

2. In an interview, Martin denoted that all 6 Stark children are skinchangers, Sansa included. It is unclear whether Sansa will ever skinchange anything, but she indeed possesses the gift. And she was born with it, as Jojen clearly states that skinchanging powers are something you are or aren't born with.

3. Arya can skinchange the cats, because she is warg. Just like, theoretically, Sansa would be able to warg birds. Or Bran's ability to warg Hodor.

4. The problem is that Ned did have a choice and he made one. And blaming 11-year-old girl for failings of three adult individuals to behave accordingly is indeed funny. There can't be an argument that Sansa telling the truth would save Lady, as Robert later clearly admitted to Ned that he knew all along that it was Joffrey's fault.

 

but having a direwolf is proof of "Starkness" to paraphrase the Lord Manderly of Whiteharbor, after all you have fake Starks like Jayne and Alayne running around!!! Haha 

The problem with that interpretation is that Sansa's maiden beauty and distinguished red hair is like a huge flashing sign. That is how everybody is looking for her, including Brienne.

I was thinking about the notion of a sacrifice in order to open the "third eye", like Bran losing his legs and all that goes with it. Sansa route is the opposite maybe, she loses her magic connection so that she can dedicate her path to politics, to leave her with no other means but her mind? I am not sure, but I think there might be a symmetry there.

Ahem, ahem, Bloodraven  For all my reading of ASOIAF, I will never understand how readers think these two parts of ASOIAF  political and mythological aspect are disconnected. Magic and its tricks have been used in politics and we know that is how Targaryens kept entire continent in line for almost 200 years. Daenerys is using her dragons as the trump card in her political negotiations, Stannis' entire arc is connecting these two things - he is becoming King so he could be AAR. The invasion of Others will inevitably push the politics front row because it will be important who will protect the people from such threat. Generally, in this world, these two aspects of the story don't exist solely on their own. They are very much connected. 

[Light a wight tonight]

I don't think that Arya has lost her wolf. She's still in contact, as Bran is with Summer. Nymeria may be Arya's strongest link to Westeros, in fact. 

What's the life span of a wolf? A large dog will not normally live over 15 years so a wolf would be about the same. Sansa has lost her wolf earlier than the other Stark kids, and has had to learn to deal with the loss at a younger age. That is to say that she's more on her own in regards to that "support system". 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1. Believe it or not, not all Starks are honorable. Ned clearly distinguishes himself from the old Kings in the North, even his own siblings. Som who was the true Stark here? Ned? Or Brandon? Or can it be both? Just like with Sansa and Arya. The fact they are so different, doesn't mean that one is not Stark. They just represent the two sides of the same coin. No one can sensibly claim that Arya has some high code of honor like Ned.

2. In an interview, Martin denoted that all 6 Stark children are skinchangers, Sansa included. It is unclear whether Sansa will ever skinchange anything, but she indeed possesses the gift. And she was born with it, as Jojen clearly states that skinchanging powers are something you are or aren't born with.

3. Arya can skinchange the cats, because she is warg. Just like, theoretically, Sansa would be able to warg birds. Or Bran's ability to warg Hodor.

4. The problem is that Ned did have a choice and he made one. And blaming 11-year-old girl for failings of three adult individuals to behave accordingly is indeed funny. There can't be an argument that Sansa telling the truth would save Lady, as Robert later clearly admitted to Ned that he knew all along that it was Joffrey's fault.

 

The problem with that interpretation is that Sansa's maiden beauty and distinguished red hair is like a huge flashing sign. That is how everybody is looking for her, including Brienne.

Ahem, ahem, Bloodraven  For all my reading of ASOIAF, I will never understand how readers think these two parts of ASOIAF  political and mythological aspect are disconnected. Magic and its tricks have been used in politics and we know that is how Targaryens kept entire continent in line for almost 200 years. Daenerys is using her dragons as the trump card in her political negotiations, Stannis' entire arc is connecting these two things - he is becoming King so he could be AAR. The invasion of Others will inevitably push the politics front row because it will be important who will protect the people from such threat. Generally, in this world, these two aspects of the story don't exist solely on their own. They are very much connected. 

I don't think I disagree with what you said, as far as Manderly is concerened a son of Ned would come before a daughter anyway. 

 

And it's all interconnected, kinda a big theme if you ask me.

 

Sansa takes after her mother, you know, classic lady, red hair, pray in a sept, and responsible for getting Ned killed...

[Joan Jett]

Sorry but no. There is no such thing as "Starkness" and some "honor code" that they all share only if they are true Starks. Sansa is just as much a Stark as any of them, she was raised in the same home by the same parents as the rest of them, she was taught as much by her mother and father as the others.

Plenty of Starks never had direwolves nor were they skinchangers and they lived in places other than Winterfell and that never stopped them from being regarded as Starks.

 

There's an SSM that sort of contradicts this.

 In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." 

 Also there's a difference between having a wolf + losing it and never having a wolf at all.  

[Light a wight tonight]

Sorry but no. There is no such thing as "Starkness"

I think that there is such a thing, but it's not what most readers think it is. It includes wildness, fierceness, and a touch of necessary cruelty. These are areas where Ned, raised in the South by Jon Arryn, is lacking. Just my opinion.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Ahem, ahem, Bloodraven  For all my reading of ASOIAF, I will never understand how readers think these two parts of ASOIAF  political and mythological aspect are disconnected. Magic and its tricks have been used in politics and we know that is how Targaryens kept entire continent in line for almost 200 years. Daenerys is using her dragons as the trump card in her political negotiations, Stannis' entire arc is connecting these two things - he is becoming King so he could be AAR. The invasion of Others will inevitably push the politics front row because it will be important who will protect the people from such threat. Generally, in this world, these two aspects of the story don't exist solely on their own. They are very much connected. 

Hmm, yes, Bloodraven is a paradigm but there's also Bran. Bran who *has* to lose something important (as important as all he dreamt to be) in order to play his designated role. It's possible that Sansa might mirror this, having to be deprived of her magic part in order to fulfill the other (the political). Or maybe not, but that remains to be seen.

And while political and supernatural plots could, and likely will, be intertwined and affect each other, not all characters will play a part in both aspects. Bran (again) is an examble, I don't see him coming out to claim his lordship and play a political role before the very end of the story (if ever). It's quite clear that some characters will be more specialized, so to say.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

I think that there is such a thing, but it's not what most readers think it is. It includes wildness, fierceness, and a touch of necessary cruelty. These are areas where Ned, raised in the South by Jon Arryn, is lacking. Just my opinion.

as with all coins "Starkness" has two sides, the wild, brash, violent side (Brandon and Lyanna) and the honorable and duty side (Ned).  Of course we still don't know why the third brother Benjen took the black, so wildcard bitches (or maybe he was just a little of both).

[Joan Jett]

GRRM's words regarding Sansa and Arya's lack of wolves.

Shaw: You mentioned how closely tied the Stark children are with the direwolves, but how about Sansa now that Lady's dead? 

Martin: She lost hers, so it kind of leaves her a little adrift. Of course Arya has lost her's too, she's separated from Nymeria. 
 

So both are "adrift" without their wolves, but the difference is that Sansa is permanently adrift while Arya can still reunite with Nymeria. Thats a stark difference lol. 

[Maxxine]

So I don't think I am explaining this as well as it sounds in my head. I know Sansa will always be a literal Stark. Whether she's married or anything else she will always have Stark blood and accordingly be a literal Stark. I'm just speaking of the symbolic significance of being the only one to permanently lose her wolf and my theory on how her this affects her final outcome. The loss of wolf is the reason why Sansa will be irreversibly corrupted by Petyr and lose sight of who she really is and where she comes from. She will never go back to Winterfell and never be reunited with her remaining family members. Arya on the other hand, while she has lost her wolf. Nymeria is not dead. This is why despite all of her attempts to become "no one" she won't be able to ever completely achieve becoming "no one." That connection to Nymeria is what is keeping her "Starkness" in tact so she won't forget who she is and where she comes from. That's why she will be able return to Winterfell and reunite with her remaining family members.

Just my theory on the significance of your direwolf being dead compared to only losing your direwolf.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Another thing. Sansa didn't "lose" her direwolf. Her direwolf was taken from her against her will. I'm not absolving Sansa of all responsibility for that outcome, but of all the people to blame for it, Sansa bears the least possible blame. She was caught in a classic dilemma: forced to choose between two equally bad options.

Robert Baratheon is more to blame, for being a weak-willed idiot. Cersei Lannister is even more to blame, for being a vindictive bitch. Sansa's father Ned is the most to blame, since he actually committed the unjust murder of her direwolf at the same time as he fully knew the whole story (Sansa had given him a complete factual account of the events days earlier) yet he never said a word in her support at the so-called "trial".

Everybody in the room at that so-called trial was aware that Sansa's direwolf was not even there, that it was Arya's wolf - now missing - who was responsible for attacking Joffrey. Everybody knew that Sansa's wolf Lady was completely innocent, yet said not a single word. Even Sansa's own father.

Perhaps Ned is the one who is not really a "Stark".

Really, this "Sansa is not a true Stark" idea, or the theory that "Stark-ness" is some exclusive club that only some people can belong to needs to die a swift and permanent death.