dRagonese Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Upon rereading Game after knowing George's first plan for Jon/Arya/Tyrion incest triangle Jons words in his first chapter at the wall become a little creepy. Jon is thinking to himself about how he misses his siblings and then he thinks how he misses Arya most of all and how he would give anything just to be near her again. Before reading George's overview letter this just seemed more like Jon wishing he wasn't freezing his balls off at the wall and was home with his family but now I believe it was in there before George changed his mind about the Jon- Arya love affair. It intrigues me to think how much more he put in the first books that were leading to a different end game but now becomes canon to the word we know. Anyone else notice anything like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Jett Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 There's lots of quotes like that for Jon and Arya. After the first book. How do you know he changed his mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dRagonese Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Lol I suppose your correct I just only hope he changed it, he does seem to have a sick infatuation with incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Jett Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 There's also a point in AGOT where Jon says Jaime "looks like a King should look" or something. I think at that point Jaime was still going to become King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 There's also a point in AGOT where Jon says Jaime "looks like a King should look" or something. I think at that point Jaime was still going to become King. Well Jaimie is almost King at this point in the book and frankly he is a pretty lousy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Yeah I definitely hope GRRM changed his mind about the Jon-Arya thing but also in ACOK when Jon first meets Ygritte he thinks how much she reminds him of Arya even though they look nothing alike. Considering this ends up as his first romantic relationship that may be another indication of the intentions of the 1st draft. But I REALLY hope he has change his mind about this. Don't know if I could take that relationship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I'm sort of ashamed to say it but I would like to see GRRM write this uncomfortable and unpopular thing. I got to the point where I actually understood Cersei & Jamie then she dropped him and my head was spinning again. Other than Arya's age which may increase in Winds, what's the ookie part? She and Jon are cousins not siblings and this is a common practice in Westeros. Is it fear for what she would do to Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar of Skagos Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I'm sort of ashamed to say it but I would like to see GRRM write this uncomfortable and unpopular thing. I got to the point where I actually understood Cersei & Jamie then she dropped him and my head was spinning again. Other than Arya's age which may increase in Winds, what's the ookie part? She and Jon are cousins not siblings and this is a common practice in Westeros. Is it fear for what she would do to Jon? Because the whole "Tragic lovers aren't actually related like they thought because Jon's parents are secretly different" is just bad.I am curious to know which sections were written with the original plotline in mind and which weren't. Also, from what I recall, the original outline had no mention of Tyrion being a dwarf, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I'm sort of ashamed to say it but I would like to see GRRM write this uncomfortable and unpopular thing. I got to the point where I actually understood Cersei & Jamie then she dropped him and my head was spinning again. Other than Arya's age which may increase in Winds, what's the ookie part? She and Jon are cousins not siblings and this is a common practice in Westeros. Is it fear for what she would do to Jon? It's not just biological genes. They grew up under the impression that they were siblings. Anyone with a step brother or step sister will tell you that after growing up with them in the same house, any idea of romance becomes awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Because the whole "Tragic lovers aren't actually related like they thought because Jon's parents are secretly different" is just bad.I am curious to know which sections were written with the original plotline in mind and which weren't.Oh c'mon, it doesn't have to be tragic. They could live happily ever after. One thing I've learned from GRRM is that what ever I want to happen he will do the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar of Skagos Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Oh c'mon, it doesn't have to be tragic. They could live happily ever after. One thing I've learned from GRRM is that what ever I want to happen he will do the opposite. That's the thing, it doesn't fit with ASOIAF. It sounds more like the ending of a childrens fairytale, and it has been overdone far too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 It's not just biological genes. They grew up under the impression that they were siblings. Anyone with a step brother or step sister will tell you that after growing up with them in the same house, any idea of romance becomes awkward.Jon was removed in that household--very much set apart from the core family. I bet he didn't even live inside--he had a little loft in the barn or something. Though I will give it to you that they do recall each other as siblings. Maybe that changes when they find out they're not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 That's the thing, it doesn't fit with ASOIAF. It sounds more like the ending of a childrens fairytale, and it has been overdone far too much.Could be, but I'm just not that opposed to it. They could open their own police force together or something. What I do like about Jon and Arya is the tenderness they have for each other. It's very sweet in this bleak story. I don't ship them or want them to become romantically entangled but I do want them reunited. Since this is what was originally intended I can't imagine what happened to change his mind about so many things he planned for this story. Certainly whatever he has in store for these 2 it will be worth reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I'm sort of ashamed to say it but I would like to see GRRM write this uncomfortable and unpopular thing. I got to the point where I actually understood Cersei & Jamie then she dropped him and my head was spinning again. Other than Arya's age which may increase in Winds, what's the ookie part? She and Jon are cousins not siblings and this is a common practice in Westeros. Is it fear for what she would do to Jon? As someone else stated the "ookie" is not even their blood it's the relationship. He calls her "little sister" and messes her hair and they clearly have a big brother-little sister relationship so for that to turn romantic would just be weird. On the other hand Ive never had a problem w/ Cersei & Jaime. Quite frankly I want them to get back together. All they do in their POVs is talk about each other. We don't know much about their childhood but it seems like their relationship has always been like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar of Skagos Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 As someone else stated the "ookie" is not even their blood it's the relationship. He calls her "little sister" and messes her hair and they clearly have a big brother-little sister relationship so for that to turn romantic would just be weird. On the other hand Ive never had a problem w/ Cersei & Jaime. Quite frankly I want them to get back together. All they do in their POVs is talk about each other. We don't know much about their childhood but it seems like their relationship has always been like this.Aye, I feel like the brother-sister relationship between Jon and Arya is much more powerful than a sexual relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentDystopia Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Aye, I feel like the brother-sister relationship between Jon and Arya is much more powerful than a sexual relationship.I have a question, I read what happened in the outline on here(I could be wrong), but didn't in the outline Arya and Jon have this weird attraction, but felt it was wrong because they were "brother" and "sister" and that's why they didn't go through with their relationship? Until they found out they are actually cousins?If that is true, then it wouldn't make sense that the relationship for Jon and Arya, in the song of ice and fire, to jump ship into a tragic love thing right? Because they had the strong brother-sister relationship and not the "weird attraction to my brother/sister" thing.I am just wondering because I did not read the Outline. As you can see my from Icon you can see who I ship (LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Jett Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I have a question, I read what happened in the outline on here(I could be wrong), but didn't in the outline Arya and Jon have this weird attraction, but felt it was wrong because they were "brother" and "sister" and that's why they didn't go through with their relationship? Until they found out they are actually cousins?If that is true, then it wouldn't make sense that the relationship for Jon and Arya, in the song of ice and fire, to jump ship into a tragic love thing right? Because they had the strong brother-sister relationship and not the "weird attraction to my brother/sister" thing.I am just wondering because I did not read the Outline. As you can see my from Icon you can see who I ship (LOL) The exact words from the outline say "Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Jett Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Aye, I feel like the brother-sister relationship between Jon and Arya is much more powerful than a sexual relationship.Jon and Arya have a very strong bond of unconditional love. That would remain the same even if they did have a sexual relationship, which they probably won't, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I cannot recall if the incest between Jaime/Cersei was pointed out in the original draft, but I find it hard to believe GRRM would put an incest angle TWICE in the same story like that....seems like a complete cop-out to repeat a storyline twice (even though it would be a different type of incest, since Arya/Jon are technically cousins if R+L=J holds true).I always go by the fact that when the original GOT was written, GRRM was still intending the book to be a trilogy, so that's why there are more Jon/Arya hints in the first book then latter books. I do think though, since the storys expansion, GRRM has attempted to swing the pedestal a bit into a more "brother/sister" type of relationship. There is obviously still something planned for Jon/Arya (too many references since the first book for it not to be true), but I don't think the cousin incest angle is the one he's going to be going with. It's going to be more of a strong brother/sister bond kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilnova Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I always go by the fact that when the original GOT was written, GRRM was still intending the book to be a trilogy, so that's why there are more Jon/Arya hints in the first book then latter books.If anything, I feel like the Jon/Arya hints actually increase as the books progress. Jon compares ygritte to Arya in book 2/3 and almost everyone reminds him of Arya. ADwD spend a lot of time on the Jon/Arya relationship (more than AGoT) leading to Jon getting shanked for wanting to save Arya from Ramsay. If we substitute the Tyrion from the original outline with Ramsay, we may yet be on track for a Jon/Arya romance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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