Mance is Rhaegar, MR=RT

[Aegon VII]

On 3/10/2016 at 9:38 AM, Aedam Targaryen said:

First of all, I'd love it if M=R, but I just don't think that's the case.

I think I might be in the same boat

 

On 3/10/2016 at 9:38 AM, Aedam Targaryen said:

The points you made that I listed above just don't make sense to me. Yes just having kids and dying in battle doesn't live up to any prophesies, but I'm certain he didn't die in battle on purpose.

Yes but I'm not talking about what his intentions were. I understand  a person doesn't always live up to expectations. But from a literary perspective, I believe GRRM wouldn't have made Rhaegar so interested in prophecy just to have nothing come of it. There's only a few players in the prophecy/mystical aspect of asoiaf. Bloodraven, Mellidandre, Rhaegar, Mance Rayder, Bran and on a lesser level Val, few other red priests, Aemon, etc. I know it's not all inclusive, but there really aren't many characters interested in prophecy and actually making moves.

Rhaegar is mentioned a ton, always in a positive light. And he knew he had a prophecy to fulfill. So either he was wrong, or he is fulfilling it. I believe there is a lot of evidence supporting the latter. I just think he's talked about and painted as a hero way too much for a character who's dead that we've never met that died to a lesser man in battle. Yeah a person can slip and lose a fight, but that's improbable. I can believe impossible, just not improbable.

 

On 3/10/2016 at 9:38 AM, Aedam Targaryen said:

 

If he had won that battle, his children would have likely become kings... you'd be in a much more powerful position to battle the Others from the Iron Throne than you would if you went north with the hopes of someday becoming king after starting from scratch with a new identity in a much more uncertain and ununited kingdom. 

I would disagree. It is drilled into us as a reader that the north would not accept a king based on name or blood. If Rhaegar decided he needed to unite the north/ go north for answers with the help of the wildings, he knew his name would not help him. Yes he could have gone and proved he was a worthy king as Rhaegar, but it's much more poetic if we works his way up from the bottom.

 

And to go as Rhaegar, he would need to defeat Robert. I think this draws a nice parallel to the current war. I think there's a part with Melisandre and Stannis where they are talking about how the war of the five kings was basically squabling over spoils and that the real war was north. They go to the wall because a real king protects the realm. Rhaegar would have been in the same situation if he believed a similar prophecy. Rhaegar could have continued fighting Robert, but it would have necessarily meant more death for the realm. He put the realm first and sacrificed his honor, his life as he knew it, and his new wife and son, in order to go north.

 

And we've seen how little the realm believes in the threat of the others. No one sends help to the wall and whenever someone brings up anything mystical people usually don't believe them e.g. giants, dragons. So if Rhaegar stayed, he would be commanding a weakened army, with a good portion being recent converts from Roberts side of the war. He would then be sending them north of the wall to unite with people they've only heard horror stories of. So I would argue that he would not be in a better position as king. He's in a better position letting the realm figure itself out, while he focuses on saving the day.

 

On 3/10/2016 at 9:38 AM, Aedam Targaryen said:

Second, I don't see how being raised at the wall would prevent him from becoming worldly knowledgable. I'd argue that the wall is the best place to be raised to have that knowledge. The wall is more of a melting pot than any other place in Westeros.

I don't think it is though. It's not a blending of all walks of life, happily assimilating and sharing cultures. It's highborn's who have no better option for the most part, and then low class criminals. And it seems the highborn stick with the highborn and the low born with the low a good amount. So most likely Mance grew up with other low born criminals from westeros. It would probably be pretty similar to Jon's current group of friends.

 

I think another point is that the wall does not seem to bring together past lives and experiences, instead it white washes everyones past. They give up their crimes, their family. That's repeated time and time again. Nothing we've seen at the wall would make us think a kid who grew up there would be so scholarly and intelligent. The only way I could see it would be if Aemon and him had a special relationship and he mentored him. But if this was the case we should have seen evidence in the text by now.

On 3/10/2016 at 9:38 AM, Aedam Targaryen said:

Growing up at the wall you are surrounded by people from every region and of every social class.

 

You'd be privy to songs and stories from every corner of Westeros.

No singer would go to the wall, so it would just be brothers singing songs they remembered. And the lowborn would probably have even fewer to share, yet Mance claims to know them all. I think any castle or person able to travel south of the wall would have a better opportunity of learning songs. And I know he boasts of going south of the wall a bunch, but I doubt he was spending a ton of time learning songs. The songs are just another example of how knowledgeable, capable, and heroic mance is. All things that we have no reason to expect from a wildling bastard, and every reason to expect from Rhaegar.

 

[Neolaina]

50 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

No singer would go to the wall, so it would just be brothers singing songs they remembered. And the lowborn would probably have even fewer to share, yet Mance claims to know them all. I think any castle or person able to travel south of the wall would have a better opportunity of learning songs. And I know he boasts of going south of the wall a bunch, but I doubt he was spending a ton of time learning songs. The songs are just another example of how knowledgeable, capable, and heroic mance is. All things that we have no reason to expect from a wildling bastard, and every reason to expect from Rhaegar.

 

Daeron went to the Wall, albeit beyond his control. Which leads me to wonder how many other imprisoned bards and troubadours were sent northward. Further, that's a rather unsubstantiated claim regarding singers heading to the wall, by their own volition. As an amateur musician, I know that I take inspiration from all of my travels and travails, and channel them into my music. I'd think a professional musician would do the same, and I know many professional musicians who do so. Now, granted, we don't live in Westeros, but we've seen another musician follow along into a dangerous path in order to experience and witness events in order to be able to write about them. Good ole, dead Marillion. I'd wager plenty of singers went north. Enough of that tangent though.

My biggest problem with Rhaegar still being alive rests in the number of people who witnessed Robert dueling him at the Trident, as well as the famous deathblow. There were too many witnesses to that moment. Further, I take Robert's memory of laying that final strike into Rhaegar's breastplate as being something extremely vivid and visceral, something he consistently and constantly relives. What's that he said to Ned? He kills him every night?

Part of him is stuck in the past, stuck in that moment, a moment that he holds as bittersweet in the present. It haunts him. Even with Rhaegar dead, he still felt as though he'd lost the war, as Lyanna was lost to him forever.

Granted, he's no maester or doctor, he's not necessarily going to check for a pulse or put an ear to Rhaegar's chest to look for a heartbeat, but I'd imagine someone who'd been fighting for as long a consecutive period as Robert was, he'd know when he'd lain a fatal blow.

We can talk glamours, and the presence of rubies, and a variety of things. And they're all valid suppositions, but they're a great stretch. We know Rhaegar was burned, though we don't know what passed from the moment his corpse hit the river, to the point that his (or as so prefer, a) body was cremated. I suppose a number of things could have occurred.

None of those suppositions really hold any weight in my mind, though.

 

[Aegon VII]

41 minutes ago, Neolaina said:

Daeron went to the Wall, albeit beyond his control. Which leads me to wonder how many other imprisoned bards and troubadours were sent northward. Further, that's a rather unsubstantiated claim regarding singers heading to the wall, by their own volition.

 I should clarify, When I said no singer would go to the wall, I was meaning by their own volition. Sure singers have just as much chance of committing a crime and going to the wall as any other profession, perhaps more of a chance, so it's definitely possible, but that's still going to be just a few at most, probably average, musicians.

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As an amateur musician, I know that I take inspiration from all of my travels and travails, and channel them into my music. I'd think a professional musician would do the same, and I know many professional musicians who do so. Now, granted, we don't live in Westeros, but we've seen another musician follow along into a dangerous path in order to experience and witness events in order to be able to write about them. Good ole, dead Marillion. I'd wager plenty of singers went north. Enough of that tangent though.

Excellent point about singers having a higher risk of going to the wall, but I still don't see it adding that many singers to wall. If anything, we as the audience have a biased view of singers in the realm based on the writing style. I would say GRRM really highlights songs and singing, and since its a theme of the series we see more situations with singers than we likely would have in a fully realistic world. It is a SONG of ice and fire after all. So I think this leaves us believing there are more singers than would actually exist. And if the singers were witnessing something they shouldn't have, they were probably killed so they couldn't talk about it. Good ole, dead Marillion. But I'd hate for us to get hung up on the specifics of him learning songs, as I think the songs speak more to his overall intelligence, charisma, and the other good qualities that we would expect of a world traveled king, versus a wildling nights watch deserter.

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My biggest problem with Rhaegar still being alive rests in the number of people who witnessed Robert dueling him at the Trident, as well as the famous deathblow. There were too many witnesses to that moment.

 

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Further, I take Robert's memory of laying that final strike into Rhaegar's breastplate as being something extremely vivid and visceral, something he consistently and constantly relives. What's that he said to Ned? He kills him every night?

Part of him is stuck in the past, stuck in that moment, a moment that he holds as bittersweet in the present. It haunts him. Even with Rhaegar dead, he still felt as though he'd lost the war, as Lyanna was lost to him forever.

Granted, he's no maester or doctor, he's not necessarily going to check for a pulse or put an ear to Rhaegar's chest to look for a heartbeat, but I'd imagine someone who'd been fighting for as long a consecutive period as Robert was, he'd know when he'd lain a fatal blow.

There's a few possible ways Rhaegar could still be alive, but I think the one that makes the most sense is someone else donning his armor and being glamoured. Gives more reason for us to see Garlan wear Renly's armor at Blackwater, to set precedent. With someone else fighting in his place, everything you mentioned above still makes sense. Many people witnessed the battle, and Robert didn't need to be a doctor to know he killed his opponent. I would mention here that if Rhaegar wanted to fake his death, it makes sense to have a bunch of witnesses so that the word would spread without doubt that Robert won the war.

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We can talk glamours, and the presence of rubies, and a variety of things.

Let's. I think the presence of rubies has proven itself time and time again to be highly correlated with deception and glamours in asoiaf. So why include them in this scene. Either there's a different deception (I'm open to ideas), there is no deception, or Rhaegar's death is the deception. If there is no deception, why include the rubies? I could really only see it being a red herring to lead us to theories like this. Or, like many other times in the text, it shows us that there is a deception at play that deserves closer examination

 

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We know Rhaegar was burned,

I disagree. It's discussed very little in the books. GRRM said "Rhaegar was cremated" but if Rhaegar was still alive what options does GRRM really have. He can tell the truth, lie, or he can try to cover it up without lying. He's said he's not a liar, but that's what all liars say. If he told the truth it would ruin the series pretty much, its a huge twist. So I could easily see him saying things that he could justify as not a lie. "Rhaegar was cremated" could be talking about Rhaegar Frey, Rhaegar becoming mance, and then mance burning at the wall, Rhaegar dying some time in the next two books, etc. So I really don't think GRRM tells us anything new by saying Rhaegar was cremated.

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though we don't know what passed from the moment his corpse hit the river, to the point that his (or as so prefer, a) body was cremated. I suppose a number of things could have occurred.

If it was someone else glamoured as Rhaegar, then it would just be them burning the corpse, no crazy suppositions required.

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None of those suppositions really hold any weight in my mind, though.

 

They do hold weight in mind, because the other evidence in the series draws so many parallels between MR and RT and MR and JS. Enough that I think this is a valid theory.

[Aegon VII]

And thanks for posting guys! I'm glad this thread is still alive as obviously its a theory I like.

[Aedam Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

And thanks for posting guys! I'm glad this thread is still alive as obviously its a theory I like.

I'm glad it's still alive too!

You make a lot of excellent points that I like, I guess just not enough to pull me over to that side of the fence.

My biggest hurdle is also that I find it difficult to believe Robert wouldn't KNOW both if he was dead or if he wasn't Rhaegar... but all those rubies... Maybe the rubies symbolize Rhaegar being deceived by the prophesy? If Rhargar thought that he was destined to win the war and take the throne based on the way that he interpreted the prophesy, he would feel pretty deceived when his chest was caved in. Peoples inability to properly interpret prophesy is another subject that seems to be brought up repeatedly. 

And I don't think George lied about Rhaegar being cremated. He's dodged plenty of questions in the past, I have faith that he could have declined to answer the question in a way that wouldn't give away any plot. 

I hope we get some answers one of these days(years)! 

[Bonkers]

I mean no offense..... but WHY would GRRM create a thousand wonderful human characters, only to make them all turn out to be the same people?  It just seems very unlikely to me that he would portray the world and the people in it, only to say...."Hey!!!  Actually, there were only a few people, but I tricked you!" ??  He is recreating the world of humans as we know it, not just writing a tricksy, who-done-it, mystery fantasy.  Some characters have a hidden past, but most are just who they appear to be I think.  Peace.

[Lord Wraith]

While I do agree there are plenty of hints towards a Mance is a Targ not to be curious I don't think Mance is Rhaegar. Now the grandson of Bryden Rivers aka Bloodraven and a Wildling women, that is a bit more feasible.

[1/7 Maester]

I like this theory but I do not really think that this is the case.

The theory requires:

A stand-in of Rhaegar died at the battle of Trident, and Rhaegar can change his face(including the colour of his eyes) like some folks in Braavos.

Some people on the Wall like Ser Alliser or Ser Jaremy Rykker could recognize Rhaegar. In fact many people knew Rhaegar.  Mance does not look like a Targaryen, you may dye your hair, but the colour of your eyes? I don't think that many people had eyes like the Targaryens, especialy in the North.

[Aegon VII]

On 3/28/2016 at 1:43 AM, Aedam Targaryen said:

My biggest hurdle is also that I find it difficult to believe Robert wouldn't KNOW both if he was dead or if he wasn't Rhaegar... but all those rubies... Maybe the rubies symbolize Rhaegar being deceived by the prophesy? If Rhargar thought that he was destined to win the war and take the throne based on the way that he interpreted the prophesy, he would feel pretty deceived when his chest was caved in. Peoples inability to properly interpret prophesy is another subject that seems to be brought up repeatedly. 

 I think it's important to remember that Bloodraven glamoured in a tale of Dunk & Egg (I believe). He was the last Dragon interested in prophecy and through his studies he learned to glamour. So we have an example to show that Rhaegar could have been learning the same skills and been able to glamour both himself and someone else. I believe this is the most likely scenario if MR=RT. We have the rubies at the battle of the trident suggesting someone else was glamoured to be Rhaegar. We also have Mance leave the Night's Watch when he is no longer able to wear his cloak, which happens to have Targaryan colors. We have seen that glamours work better when associated with a physical object, like rattleshirts bones. So him not being able to wear the cloak could have ended the glamour, and from then on he just looked like an aging Rhaegar while north of the wall. His current features could easily be Rhaegars now that he's been ranging for so long and with maybe a bit of hair dye. Concerning his interpretation of the prophecy, I think he realized that if the war continued more of westeros would bleed and it would be a waste of time, when the larger enemy was gathering north of the wall. By faking his death and going to the wall, I think Rhaegar was starting his plan to unite the realm (wilidings and mainlanders) in time before the long night.

On 3/28/2016 at 1:43 AM, Aedam Targaryen said:

And I don't think George lied about Rhaegar being cremated. He's dodged plenty of questions in the past, I have faith that he could have declined to answer the question in a way that wouldn't give away any plot. 

I hope we get some answers one of these days(years)! 

Hopefully closer to weeks! And I don't think GRRM lied either, I think him saying "Rhaegar was cremated" can still be interpreted as a true statement even if MR=RT. e.g. Rhaegar comes out as mance in TWOW and then gets cremated.

 

But I think the hurdles for this theory to work are all manageable, especially when you consider how much of the story would work out so elegantly and poetically if MR=RT.

 

Alfie allens comment about it being like a luke skywalker thing, we even have the father son lightsaber fight in Rattleshirt v Snow

Selmy's comment, something like, Rhaegar was above all, Able (Abel).

The entire Bael the Bard parallel in Mance's story.

Aemon Steelsong is now a Dragon, named after his great uncle-ish, possibly on his way to Dany.

Why Mance is mentioned in the first chapter, but also as not a threat in the second chapter by Ned.

Et cetera

 

[Aegon VII]

On 5/3/2016 at 11:38 PM, Bonkers said:

I mean no offense..... but WHY would GRRM create a thousand wonderful human characters, only to make them all turn out to be the same people?  It just seems very unlikely to me that he would portray the world and the people in it, only to say...."Hey!!!  Actually, there were only a few people, but I tricked you!" ??  He is recreating the world of humans as we know it, not just writing a tricksy, who-done-it, mystery fantasy.  Some characters have a hidden past, but most are just who they appear to be I think.  Peace.

I take no offense, but it seems you have problem with the number of theories of this nature vs this one in particular. We have seen in many cases that GRRM does repurpose / bring back characters. You could have said the same thing about the Hound coming back, and as of yesterdays episode, we see that he was the gravedigger and is coming back. Each theory has to be evaluated independently.

[Aegon VII]

On 5/3/2016 at 11:52 PM, Lord Wraith said:

While I do agree there are plenty of hints towards a Mance is a Targ not to be curious I don't think Mance is Rhaegar. Now the grandson of Bryden Rivers aka Bloodraven and a Wildling women, that is a bit more feasible.

Though Mance being a descendent of BR or even Qorgyle might be more feasible, I don't think it's more likely. (I can appreciate the irony of that statement) I think this because of GRRM's writing style, as I view it. Every part of ASOIAF is straight up beautifully written. George put's incredible detail into laying down groundwork, foreshadowing, and painting a wholly cohesive narrative. There has not been hardly anything pointing to Mance being a BR descendant. I think just his helmet, and the thread is described as scarlet in his cloak. Furthermore, we barely know BR in ASOIAF, so finding out Mance is a descendant would not carry nearly as much weight as learning he Rhaegar, the man who started everything really. Also BR's descendant wouldn't have the same Stark relationship that it seems mance has, e.g. going to winterfell, looking after Jon. I think based on the text GRRM is hinting at Mance being more than meets the eye, and if he is, I see GRRM going big vs going home. It's a longshot theory, but it's possible, there's evidence that supports it, and if it by the small chance it is true, it would blow everyone's mind. Call me a dreamer, but I view it as at least a valid theory, and I'm rooting for it!

[Aegon VII]

On 6/1/2016 at 0:58 PM, 1/7 Maester said:

I like this theory but I do not really think that this is the case.

The theory requires:

A stand-in of Rhaegar died at the battle of Trident, and Rhaegar can change his face(including the colour of his eyes) like some folks in Braavos.

I touched this a few posts ago but we have seen Targs use glamours through BR. We also have a bunch of Kinsgaurd dying at the time, any of whom could have stood in, as we've seen with Renly's Armor. Furthermore the Rubies at the scene of death would support it being a glamour.

On 6/1/2016 at 0:58 PM, 1/7 Maester said:

Some people on the Wall like Ser Alliser or Ser Jaremy Rykker could recognize Rhaegar. In fact many people knew Rhaegar.  Mance does not look like a Targaryen, you may dye your hair, but the colour of your eyes? I don't think that many people had eyes like the Targaryens, especialy in the North.

Lot's of possibilities, I think most likely he glamoured to look like the real Mance Rayder who had recently died, and then when he had to give up his cloak, it would have broken the glamour. If he had Aemon's help, it would be even easier to be hidden there under a false identity and with a glamour.

[Aedam Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Aegon VII said:

Selmy's comment, something like, Rhaegar was above all, Able (Abel).

I'll have to re-read my comments and some of the comments around them to get myself back into the mindset I was in 3 months ago, so I may have more to add later, but I never thought of Selmy's comment in that way, and I love it! 

As I think I said before, I don't think they are the same person, but I'd absolutely love it if they are!

[Aegon VII]

8 hours ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

I'll have to re-read my comments and some of the comments around them to get myself back into the mindset I was in 3 months ago, so I may have more to add later, but I never thought of Selmy's comment in that way, and I love it! 

As I think I said before, I don't think they are the same person, but I'd absolutely love it if they are!

Yeah, I do apologize for the long delay there. I injured my wrists from typing at work so I'm taking a leave from work and doing physical therapy. Since it's caused by typing I've really been trying to stay away from screens and typing the last few months. I'll try to think back to some of the other pretty cool lines if mr+rt is true. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking..

When Jon and Mance are talking and Jon says "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine"

From the house of the undying, " Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light." Rhaegar as Mance would make more sense than most of the current theories.

Aemon's mom died in childbirth, another common Targ trait.

Jon chose to give up Aemon's name and ship him off under a false identity in order to keep him safe, the same thing Rhaegar did for Jon, Jon is now doing for Rhaegars son, his brother. Also this would be Rhaegar's third dead wife, similar to the forging of lightbringer.

I don't have a quote, but I feel like somewhere Jon makes a statement, "If only we had know about the other threat, and started preparing for it rather than fighting against ourselves. If MR=RT, that's exactly what he did.

That's all for now, I need to revisit when Mance first meets Jon in the tent, I think there's some good lines there as well.

 

[1/7 Maester]

On 2016. 06. 07. at 5:20 AM, Aegon VII said:

Yeah, I do apologize for the long delay there. I injured my wrists from typing at work so I'm taking a leave from work and doing physical therapy. Since it's caused by typing I've really been trying to stay away from screens and typing the last few months. I'll try to think back to some of the other pretty cool lines if mr+rt is true. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking..

When Jon and Mance are talking and Jon says "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine"

From the house of the undying, " Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light." Rhaegar as Mance would make more sense than most of the current theories.

Aemon's mom died in childbirth, another common Targ trait.

Jon chose to give up Aemon's name and ship him off under a false identity in order to keep him safe, the same thing Rhaegar did for Jon, Jon is now doing for Rhaegars son, his brother. Also this would be Rhaegar's third dead wife, similar to the forging of lightbringer.

I don't have a quote, but I feel like somewhere Jon makes a statement, "If only we had know about the other threat, and started preparing for it rather than fighting against ourselves. If MR=RT, that's exactly what he did.

That's all for now, I need to revisit when Mance first meets Jon in the tent, I think there's some good lines there as well.

Do you mean the song that Mance was singing at that time? That is also kind of interesting.

 

[Eggshell Joe]

Great job holding down the fort and keeping this discussion civil, @Aegon VII.

I didn't come up with MR=RT in the first place, but I tried to bring the different parts I had seen together and add in my own opinions when I wrote http://manceisrhaegar.blogspot.com/. I was surprised at the time by how angry and/or adamant people were about this theory from both sides. But I think you'll agree that this reaction only warrants further scrutiny.

Looking back, there are definitely parts to my version where I remain unconvinced, and could definitely be wrong. For example, trying to label Qhorin Halfhand as Arthur Dayne never really made too much since to me. The parallels between Arthur and Rhaegar's friendship to Qhorin and Mance's are there.. as well as subtle things like Mance saying "the Halfhand was carved of old oak" possibly alluding to the Dayne's rivalry with the Oakhearts of Old Oak.. but why would Qhorin need to die fighting the wildlings to bring Jon to Mance?

To @1/7 Maester 's point about Rykker or Thorne recognizing Rhaegar.. definitely valid, so maintaining a disguise would be necessary.. unless there was a bigger conspiracy. And if there were, I would venture to guess that some loyalists at the Shadow Tower helped maintain a sufficient backstory for Mance (ie Qhorin, Squire Dalbridge, etc.). Mance seemed to have the trust of Lord Qorgyle for a time even though he was supposedly stationed at the Shadow Tower under Denys Mallister.. so his trips to Winterfell as a NW member are somewhat strange.

[Eggshell Joe]

Here's an excerpt to chew on:

“Bael the Bard,” said Jon, remembering the tale that Yritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he’d almost killed her.

“Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael’s exploit inspired mine own.. but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?”

“No,” said Jon. “If you had been discovered.. taken..”

“Your father would have had my head off.” The king gave a shrug. “Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree.” He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones.

“Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands.. this night, at least. So tell me truly, Jon Snow. Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?”

Guest right or no, Jon Snow knew he walked on rotten ice here. One false step and he might plunge through, into water cold enough to stop his heart. Weigh every word before you speak it, he told himself. He took a long draught of mead to buy time for his answer. When he set the horn aside he said, “Tell me why you turned your cloak, and I’ll tell you why I turned mine.”

Mance Rayder smiled, as Jon had hoped he would. The king was plainly a man who liked the sound of his own voice. “You will have heard stories of my desertion, I have no doubt.”

“Some say it was for a crown. Some say for a woman. Others that you had the wilding blood.”

“The wildling blood is the blood for the First Men, the same blood that flows in the veins of the Starks. As to a crown, do you see one?”

“I see a woman.” He glanced at Dalla.

Mance took her by the hand and pulled her close. “My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father’s castle. The Halfhand was carved of old oak, but I am made of flesh, and I have a great fondness for the charms of women.. which makes me no different from three-quarters of the Watch. There are men still wearing black who have had ten times as many women as this poor king. You must guess again, Jon Snow.”

Jon considered a moment. “The Halfhand said you had a passion for wildling music.”

“I did. I do. That’s closer to the mark, yes. But not a hit.”

 (From Jon 1, ASOS)

 

Then he goes on to tell the story about leaving for a place where a man could wear any cloak he chooses and a kiss is not a crime. The cloak story is a wildling story.. alas.. if he had stopped there we'd imagine it was his passion for the musical song of ice and fire that was his reason for deserting. Alas, we're left to infer more than we should from Mance's sly stories.

If MR=RT, I hope we’ll look back on Rhaegar and see that he accepted his destiny while trying to maintain some semblance of freedom, to be a leader of the realms of men but on his own terms and by his own merits, to write his own songs and live them.

 

 

[Aegon VII]

On 6/9/2016 at 1:44 PM, Eggshell Joe said:

Great job holding down the fort and keeping this discussion civil, @Aegon VII.

 Thank you Eggshell Joe! Thank you even more for the website though, I thoroughly enjoyed it and it definitely helped shape my view and current position.

On 6/9/2016 at 1:44 PM, Eggshell Joe said:

I didn't come up with MR=RT in the first place, but I tried to bring the different parts I had seen together and add in my own opinions when I wrote http://manceisrhaegar.blogspot.com/. I was surprised at the time by how angry and/or adamant people were about this theory from both sides. But I think you'll agree that this reaction only warrants further scrutiny.

Looking back, there are definitely parts to my version where I remain unconvinced, and could definitely be wrong. For example, trying to label Qhorin Halfhand as Arthur Dayne never really made too much since to me. The parallels between Arthur and Rhaegar's friendship to Qhorin and Mance's are there.. as well as subtle things like Mance saying "the Halfhand was carved of old oak" possibly alluding to the Dayne's rivalry with the Oakhearts of Old Oak.. but why would Qhorin need to die fighting the wildlings to bring Jon to Mance?

I will say it was the Dayne/Halfhand, and Whent/Kettleback part of your site that I'm not quite so sure about. There's already enough unknowns and hurdles to the theory and I don't think I'm confident enough to speculate to that extent.

On 6/9/2016 at 1:44 PM, Eggshell Joe said:

To @1/7 Maester 's point about Rykker or Thorne recognizing Rhaegar.. definitely valid, so maintaining a disguise would be necessary.. unless there was a bigger conspiracy. And if there were, I would venture to guess that some loyalists at the Shadow Tower helped maintain a sufficient backstory for Mance (ie Qhorin, Squire Dalbridge, etc.). Mance seemed to have the trust of Lord Qorgyle for a time even though he was supposedly stationed at the Shadow Tower under Denys Mallister.. so his trips to Winterfell as a NW member are somewhat strange.

I think that most likely Rhaegar used a glamour to assume the identity of a recently deceased Mance Rayder, but I could also see them creating the backstory as well. We even have Rhaegar using glamours at the Harrenhal tourney in order to win. While also using a plume of scarlet silk, which is the same color of Mance's cloak. And I think it's entirely possible that Rykker or Thorne wouldn't know even without a conspiracy, but if Rhaegar did have Aemon and Qhorin or whomever helping it would be all the easier. I believe there would be what, like 1000 men in the NW at that time. All spread out of different castles, one person could easily be created from thin air, let alone replaced.

[Bonkers]

On 07/06/2016 at 3:13 AM, Aegon VII said:

I take no offense, but it seems you have problem with the number of theories of this nature vs this one in particular. We have seen in many cases that GRRM does repurpose / bring back characters. You could have said the same thing about the Hound coming back, and as of yesterdays episode, we see that he was the gravedigger and is coming back. Each theory has to be evaluated independently.

yeh...but Rhaegar?  I don't think this is likely to be real... I love the gravedigger etc stuff, and some of it is very likely, but I think Rhaegar was who he was and that is important for the story that  he died the way he did. 

[Chib]

Rhaegar is dead, it is known.