Brienne the Legendary Warrior?

[aryagonnakill#2]

Brienne beat an overconfident Loras, who arguably wasn't fighting seriously, and a starved, withered Jaime with his hands tied up.

It's telling that when George listed the best warriors alive in Westeros, he listed the Tyrell bros, the Cleganes, Barry, but not Brienne.

I don't think its fair to say Loras was not taking the fight seriously.  Loras is very proud and absolutely would not want everyone to see him loose to a woman.

[Sullen]

I don't think its fair to say Loras was not taking the fight seriously.  Loras is very proud and absolutely would not want everyone to see him loose to a woman.

He did not see her as a threat though, and was pretty much thoroughly giving her a bad time until she jumped on him a dagger at hand.

[aryagonnakill#2]

He did not see her as a threat though, and was pretty much thoroughly giving her a bad time until she jumped on him a dagger at hand.

I agree with the 2nd part but can't agree with the 1st.  Before Brienne and Loras fought Loras watched on as Brienne won a 2vs1 with the 3rd and 4th place contenders in a massive melee, they could not have been chumps.  Catlyn also notes that Loras was on Brienne before she could even turn and face him, that seems like he was taking her very seriously.  As to the 2nd part yes she was loosing, but again she had just fought a 2vs1 while Loras rested, and on top of that her shield was destroyed during the 2vs1 so when Loras and her fought he had weapon and shield and her just weapon.  He was surprised by her move of jumping off the horse, but the move in and of itself proves she is the stronger of the two or else he could have ended up on top rather than her.

[Light a wight tonight]

He did not see her as a threat though, and was pretty much thoroughly giving her a bad time until she jumped on him a dagger at hand.

To be fair, her shield had been shattered. Overconfidence may have undone him, but that's purely his fault. It doesn't detract from her ability.

[mdw4950]

True, but nowhere near being able to handle The Hound, at least in my opinion.  Idk, the books did a great job building up Sandor Clegane into this tough fighting beast...I just never sat well with me how his end came.  Didn't seem fitting for how the books built him into being.

i took it as the other way around. the hound was drunk enough that even arya noticed how sloppy he was, had been stabbed multiple times yet still kicked a table into polliver, cut his face in half and talked shit before doing it. although polliver wasnt as muscular as the hound, he was just about as tall and one of the mountains top guys. with all the hype and times hes talked about after his 'death' i can definitely understand how it wouldnt sit well though with a lot of peoples idea of sandor though.

anyway, like most people said, brienne can hold her own but shes a step below the true elite level fighters. also like other people mentioned, her character in the show is very overpowered compared to her book character. she easily beats loras whereas the books has her getting her ass kicked until she tackles him. in the show shes very dismissive of jaime where in the books she thinks to herself how he was half starved and chained to a tree for a year yet still almost killed her. and for the hell of it (if im remembering it right) when she tells jaime about trying to find the hound he thinks something along the lines of she better 'pray hard and run fast' should she encounter him. jaime doesnt throw praise around very often so that should tell readers all they need to know about how dangerous the hound really is in comparison to brienne.

[naseridrl]

I think she's above average but I think if she had more of a killer instinct she might be higher, not the very top but higher with the right attitude.  She's a physical specimen as well which helps, there aren't that many men bigger than her and she has the strength to match it. 

She's also quite young so she has time to learn and grow as a fighter  I think in the end she might be legendary because she's a true knight and not because she was the greatest fighter but because she despite not being a knight she believes in the knightly ideal and strives to do what's right.

[Ser Greggor the Baked]

I think she will be considered legendary by the time this is all said and done. Her storyline is similar to Ser Duncan the Tall, which does not seem to be an accident. Maybe at the end of the books, she gets a place in the KG and can continue to put her name in history. 

[talvikorppi]

"jaime doesnt throw praise around very often so that should tell readers all they need to know..."

 

Sorry, the quoting function on this board is failing me and I'm only quoting a tiny bit of your post, mdw4950.

 

I'd only say this. Jaime does throw praise at Brienne. "You've protected me better than most", and, let's not forget him giving her a priceless Valyrian steel sword. Either he thinks the wench can wield it well enough - better than Jaime himself, left-handed - or he's making a soppy romantic gesture.

 

Nah, not a romantic gesture. Jaime thinks Brienne is a good fighter, good enough to be given a Valyrian steel sword. Brienne, of course, loves being recognised for her skill and not being sneered at. Jaime has his own agenda ("Sansa Stark is my last chance of honour") but he would not give a priceless sword to a fuddled, muddled, inept swordsperson. He thinks Brienne is fairly good. Worth the sword because of her skill, and most of all, worth it because of her sense of honour and duty, and goodness. Jaime, at this point, wishes he could be like her. He's sending her on a quest to vicariously retrieve his honour.

[talvikorppi]

I think she will be considered legendary by the time this is all said and done. Her storyline is similar to Ser Duncan the Tall, which does not seem to be an accident. Maybe at the end of the books, she gets a place in the KG and can continue to put her name in history. 

Noooo, not the KG!

Jaime needs to be kicked out of the KG (easy enough with all the wars to come, he killed the prospective queen's father or the prospective king's grandfather) and the wench, the Lady of Tarth in her own right, and the Kingslayer, stipped of all lands and titles, lucky to still have a head on his shoulders, will retreat to Tarth and spend their days sparring at swords. And words.

Please, please, please, GRRM, give us this bittersweet ending! (Now I've jinxed it.)

---

edited for spelling

[Rickon Stark The Aulë]

I think that fight is very telling but not in the way you're thinking. Basically Jamie IS that fictional swordsman trope. People like to humanize him and over look or pretend this isn't so. But when the writer(Grrm) tells us Jamie could be The Dragon Reborn hands down, among other things, you can't deny that was his intent. Also it makes it so much better when he looses his sword hand. You know taking a trope and flipping it on its head.

Do you have a link for the George saying he's the dragon reborn in skill.

I mean like jaime's a amazing fighter don't get me wrong but i think the majority of Rand's blood is Aiel soooooo

But if there's some realism in Georges world then fights are mostly luck depending on temperature, location ,exhaustion,skill,opponents

seems to me that people over-boast jaimies skill when it's mostly luck.

 

[Ser Morbid]

I believe she really is above average even among male fighters, however I think she would get flattened by plenty of top tier fighters like Garlan Tyrell, Clegane bro's, Vic Greyjoy, old Barry and so on.

[tsmiles23]

Brienne is the most overrated fighter on this board. She is an average fighter at best. What makes her a greater fighter, that she killed 5 bandits, she won a tournament, that she fought a chained Jamie to a somewhat stand still and this makes her a greater fighter. Really? Then I guess Jorah Mormont is a legendary fighter too. He has also won a tournament, was knighted for his courage doing the greyjoy rebellion and  has survived as a sell sword since his exile. If you want a female fighter who is underrated look at Asha Greyjoy. Her culture is all about strength and being a good fighter and she has the respect of her crew and other ironborn, but i never see her name brought up as a great or legendary fighter probably because she isn't a distant relative to Sir Dunk.   

[Chancho]

Brienne is young, she has the physical tools, experience and technique is something you get with time, she might not be the biggest talent around, but she can grow a lot... Jaime and Hyle Hunt are very impressed by her fighting skills... She is resilient as hell. I prefer to think that the Hound is better then guys like Dayne, too much name on this guys, more of a legend than a fighter.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Do you have a link for the George saying he's the dragon reborn in skill.

I mean like Rand's a amazing fighter don't get me wrong but i think the majority of his blood is Aiel soooooo

But if there's some realism in Georges world then fights are mostly luck depending on temperature, location ,exhaustion,skill,opponents

seems to me that people over-boast jaimies skill when it's mostly luck.

 

Sadly I can't find the video where he says it but it is very ironic that you mention luck. As right after he said it he says something like but there's also the luck factor. Someone could slip on mud. But I have this link of his written thoughts.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/144572.html

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Brienne is the most overrated fighter on this board. She is an average fighter at best. What makes her a greater fighter, that she killed 5 bandits, she won a tournament, that she fought a chained Jamie to a somewhat stand still and this makes her a greater fighter. Really? Then I guess Jorah Mormont is a legendary fighter too. He has also won a tournament, was knighted for his courage doing the greyjoy rebellion and  has survived as a sell sword since his exile. If you want a female fighter who is underrated look at Asha Greyjoy. Her culture is all about strength and being a good fighter and she has the respect of her crew and other ironborn, but i never see her name brought up as a great or legendary fighter probably because she isn't a distant relative to Sir Dunk.   

Asha is my favorite female character Second favorite character and I don't agree. She barely stands her own against the Middle Liddle. She's on a change arch the badassness (I say that loosely) is the lie she tells herself...well one of them. 

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Well she held her own against (an admittedly weakened) Jaime and defeated Loras, so she's definitely a very skilled fighter.  Maybe not on the same level as some of the "greats", but she's up there.

Her fight against Loras didn't prove that she's skilled though seeing as Loras actually beat her very badly when they were dueling with axe and morningstar. All it proved was that she's a big strong girl as Loras defeated her and disarmed her when they fought with weapon so she then tackled him off his horse and landed on him Dunk'd him which got her the win while he was all disoriented.

It was exactly like when Dunk beat Aerion. The bigger person won because of their size, not skill. Both Loras and Aerion are/were more skilled than Dunk and Brienne, but lost once the fight became a grappling contest.

There's nothing too impressive about being a better warrior than Robb or Bronn (which she definitively is)... I mean, hell, Robb struggled against Joffrey in AGoT.

While she's not legendary, she is very good. I'd put her about at the same level as Bronze Yohn, lower than the Tyrell brothers and the Clegane brothers, but still a fantastic warrior.

To be fair though that's because the original outline called for Joffrey to be a warrior king like Robert who actually would fight his own battles instead of the guy we actually got. The outline originally has Robb and Joffrey dueling during the WOFK, with Robb being only able to maim him and not kill him in battle. Joffrey was originally intended to be very skilled (which is really what you'd expect from at least 1 of the crown princes), and AGOT reflects that.

Her fight against Jaime is telling.  He was chained at the wrists, had a 1 handed sword and no shield, compared to her 2 handed sword, and had been confined and barely allowed to move for months and months.  She is not top level or else she would have made short work of him in that state, but she beat Loras and Rorge, and was targeted by tons of people during the mock tourney.  Before she beat Loras she was fighting 2 people at once while Loras just sat around waiting.

Loras is standing around waiting because there were only 4 people left and the other 2 had teamed up to attack Brienne. 2 people + Brienne = 3 people. That leaves Loras no one to fight. What exactly was Loras supposed to be doing?

If we're ranking fighters on a 1-10 scale (10 being legends like Arthur Dayne, Robert in his prime, etc), Brienne is probably a 7.5.

She's able to leverage a good combination of strength and technique, and seems to be good at adjusting her plans to her opponents weaknesses. Her fighting Garlan Tyrell would probably be the best test of her skill since he seems much smarter than the average fighter she's gone up against, but I'd wager they'd be dead even.

That doesn't make any sense though because Loras was better than her with weapons and Loras says that Garlan is better than him.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

I think she will be considered legendary by the time this is all said and done. Her storyline is similar to Ser Duncan the Tall, which does not seem to be an accident. Maybe at the end of the books, she gets a place in the KG and can continue to put her name in history. 

Her win over Loras is exactly how Dunk beat Aerion. Both Loras and Aerion were beating them until they made it a wrestling match and then used their size to win.

Do you have a link for the George saying he's the dragon reborn in skill.

I mean like Rand's a amazing fighter don't get me wrong but i think the majority of his blood is Aiel soooooo

But if there's some realism in Georges world then fights are mostly luck depending on temperature, location ,exhaustion,skill,opponents

seems to me that people over-boast jaimies skill when it's mostly luck.

 

GRRM wrote a story on his Not A Blog that has Rand come to Westoros for a trial by 7 against Jaime (one handed Jaime btw) and Jaime beats him.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/147038.html

Admittedly Tyrion stacks the trial so that Rand eventually can't use the One Power as well as a few other things, but GRRM has Jaime and Rand straight up duel at the end and Jaime ends up beating him. Which was just completely unrealistic considering that Jaime fought with his left hand and GRRM has Jaime thinking that Rand is the best warrior he's ever fought, as good as Barristan and Arthur. Ilyn Payne wipes the floor with Jaime and he hasn't fought in 15 years so Rand should absolutely kill Jaime but he doesn't and Jaime keeps up with him and beats him.

Proof though that GRRM does really write fantasy though.

[aryagonnakill#2]

 

Loras is standing around waiting because there were only 4 people left and the other 2 had teamed up to attack Brienne. 2 people + Brienne = 3 people. That leaves Loras no one to fight. What exactly was Loras supposed to be doing?

 

I'm not saying it was a bad strategy, I'm saying it was a good strategy that gave him a big advantage when they fought.  Loras was fresh and Brienne was not, and not only that but she no longer had a shield.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

I'm not saying it was a bad strategy, I'm saying it was a good strategy that gave him a big advantage when they fought.  Loras was fresh and Brienne was not, and not only that but she no longer had a shield.

Nobody would really have been fresh though. The melee was on it's second day of fighting and 96 people had already been eliminated by the time that Catelyn arrives to see the last 20 people still fighting.

A field had been cleared off, fences and galleries and tilting barriers thrown up. Hundreds were gathered to watch, perhaps thousands. From the looks of the grounds, torn and muddy and littered with bits of dinted armor and broken lances, they had been at it for a day or more, but now the end was near. Fewer than a score of knights remained ahorse, charging and slashing at each other as watchers and fallen combatants cheered them on. She saw two destriers collide in full armor, going down in a tangle of steel and horseflesh. “A tourney,” Hal Mollen declared. He had a penchant for loudly announcing the obvious.

18 people still have to be eliminated before Brienne and Loras fight. We see at least that Brienne eliminates 3 of those 18 in Red Ronnet and the last 2 knights (well her horse takes out 1 but close enough lol)

A roar went up from the crowd as a helmetless red-bearded man with a griffin on his shield went down before a big knight in blue armor. His steel was a deep cobalt, even the blunt morningstar he wielded with such deadly effect, his mount barded in the quartered sun-and-moon heraldry of House Tarth.

Two of the other survivors had made common cause. They spurred their mounts toward the knight in the cobalt armor. As they closed to either side, the blue knight reined hard, smashing one man full in the face with his splintered shield while his black destrier lashed out with a steel-shod hoof at the other. In a blink, one combatant was unhorsed, the other reeling. The blue knight let his broken shield drop to the ground to free his left arm, and then the Knight of Flowers was on him. The weight of his steel seemed to hardly diminish the grace and quickness with which Ser Loras moved, his rainbow cloak swirling about him.

And Loras eliminates at least 2

“Oh, splendid,” Ser Wendel Manderly said as a knight in a rainbowstriped cloak wheeled to deliver a backhand blow with a long-handled axe that shattered the shield of the man pursuing him and sent him reeling in his stirrups.

Out in the field, another man lost his seat to the knight in the rainbow-striped cloak, and the king shouted approval with the rest. “Loras!” she heard him call. “Loras! Highgarden!” The queen clapped her hands together in excitement.

That leaves 11 people who still need to be eliminated but the text only gives us 3 of them, neither of which do we hear about falling to Brienne or Loras.

She saw two destriers collide in full armor, going down in a tangle of steel and horseflesh.

Another man was fallen, trapped beneath his injured horse, both of them screaming in pain. Squires rushed out to aid them.

So there are 8 unaccounted for people that also get defeated before Brienne and Loras fight and it's fairly likely that Brienne or Loras eliminated at least some. Either way though, Loras is just as tired as Brienne because he's fought just as many people as she has and just as long as she has. At best he gets like a 10 second break between eliminating the 5th last person standing, considering the 2 last people that Brienne eliminates before Loras she dispatches in 1 pass without any effort

Catelyn turned to see the end of it. Only four men were left in the fight now, and there was small doubt whom king and commons favored. She had never met Ser Loras Tyrell, but even in the distant north one heard tales of the prowess of the young Knight of Flowers. Ser Loras rode a tall white stallion in silver mail, and fought with a long-handled axe. A crest of golden roses ran down the center of his helm.
Two of the other survivors had made common cause. They spurred their mounts toward the knight in the cobalt armor. As they closed to either side, the blue knight reined hard, smashing one man full in the face with his splintered shield while his black destrier lashed out with a steel-shod hoof at the other. In a blink, one combatant was unhorsed, the other reeling. The blue knight let his broken shield drop to the ground to free his left arm, and then the Knight of Flowers was on him. The weight of his steel seemed to hardly diminish the grace and quickness with which Ser Loras moved, his rainbow cloak swirling about him.

So Loras hardly had any stamina advantage by time they fought. The only real advantage that Loras has is that he still has his shield (which itself was battered and hardly fresh) but even then I wouldn't even say that much of an advantage considering how the fight plays out. The real difference is the skill difference between them

The white horse and the black one wheeled like lovers at a harvest dance, the riders throwing steel in place of kisses. Longaxe flashed and morningstar whirled. Both weapons were blunted, yet still they raised an awful clangor. Shieldless, the blue knight was getting much the worse of it. Ser Loras rained down blows on his head and shoulders, to shouts of “Highgarden!” from the throng. The other gave answer with his morningstar, but whenever the ball came crashing in, Ser Loras interposed his battered green shield, emblazoned with three golden roses. When the longaxe caught the blue knight’s hand on the backswing and sent the morningstar flying from his grasp, the crowd screamed like a rutting beast. The Knight of Flowers raised his axe for the final blow.

Brienne didn't have a shield, but she was still getting whacked left and right on her head and shoulders without blocking anything with her arms that were armored and capable of doing such a thing or moving away from the blows, and Loras disarmed her. Loras is just more skilled and faster than her.

[aryagonnakill#2]

 

Nobody would really have been fresh though. The melee was on it's second day of fighting and 96 people had already been eliminated by the time that Catelyn arrives to see the last 20 people still fighting.

18 people still have to be eliminated before Brienne and Loras fight. We see at least that Brienne eliminates 3 of those 18 in Red Ronnet and the last 2 knights (well her horse takes out 1 but close enough lol)

And Loras eliminates at least 2

That leaves 11 people who still need to be eliminated but the text only gives us 3 of them, neither of which do we hear about falling to Brienne or Loras.

So there are 8 unaccounted for people that also get defeated before Brienne and Loras fight and it's fairly likely that Brienne or Loras eliminated at least some. Either way though, Loras is just as tired as Brienne because he's fought just as many people as she has and just as long as she has. At best he gets like a 10 second break between eliminating the 5th last person standing, considering the 2 last people that Brienne eliminates before Loras she dispatches in 1 pass without any effort

So Loras hardly had any stamina advantage by time they fought. The only real advantage that Loras has is that he still has his shield (which itself was battered and hardly fresh) but even then I wouldn't even say that much of an advantage considering how the fight plays out. The real difference is the skill difference between them

Brienne didn't have a shield, but she was still getting whacked left and right on her head and shoulders without blocking anything with her arms that were armored and capable of doing such a thing or moving away from the blows, and Loras disarmed her. Loras is just more skilled and faster than her.

Your point about stamina is fair, but Catlyns own words suggest the lack of shield was making all the difference.  In any event I never argued that Loras did not have better technique, simply that technique is not the only thing that matters in a fight.  Loras may be the better swordsman, but he is not the better fighter, if Brienne wasn't stronger than Loras she would not have wound up on top.