Harrenhal: Was the tournament fixed?

[Wm Portnoy]

Simple question.  Do you think the tournament was rigged to make Rhaegar look good?

[purple-eyes]

I think so

[Curled Finger]

I doubt it.   The world book sort of hints that Rhaegar was planning some secret council with the High Lords in attendance to address the deposition of Aerys.  AWOIAF flat out accuses Rhaegar of bankrolling the tournament.   But winning? Nah.    Rhaegar was an accomplished tourney knight and there are too many recollections from other contenders about his prowess at this meet.   Rhaegar was a rock star.  He didn't need anything to make him look better.   He was the epitome of everything everyone wanted to be.   He won plenty of tourneys.   Harrenhall was simply the last of many wins for the prince.    

[purple-eyes]

I doubt it.   The world book sort of hints that Rhaegar was planning some secret council with the High Lords in attendance to address the deposition of Aerys.  AWOIAF flat out accuses Rhaegar of bankrolling the tournament.   But winning? Nah.    Rhaegar was an accomplished tourney knight and there are too many recollections from other contenders about his prowess at this meet.   Rhaegar was a rock star.  He didn't need anything to make him look better.   He was the epitome of everything everyone wanted to be.   He won plenty of tourneys.   Harrenhall was simply the last of many wins for the prince.    

Hey, Rhaegar never won a tourney before HH. 

he lost to Barristan and he lost to Arthur Dayne. 

HH is the only one he won. and interestingly HH tourney is full of political feeling. 

it is not hard to believe that they want Rhaegar to look specially better than his daddy Aerys (this is called contrast)

And he is crown prince, we know KG should not hurt crown prince. 

Ned said so, Barri said so, Baelor said so. 

There is also a crazy Aerys there, who will want to unhorse the royal heir and make him possibly injured?

How will he summon a grand council if he was injured? I think Arthur Dayne made a dive for him. 

it is likely that Rhaegar decided to win and become the champion, and this will help him to win the support. 

 

 

[Swordofmorning]

Of Course.

Winning the tourney in front of all the gathered LPs would make him look really good opposite to his misshapen father and would've helped him garner greater support for dethroning his father and claiming the throne.

[Curled Finger]

OK Purple Eyes, I think it's Selmy who relates the story of Harrenhall to Dany and cites that Rhaegar was unstoppable that day.  I"m not on the Rhaegar hate train as by most accounts he was a fine tourney fighter.   I would hope that anyone (KG included) competing in a Tournament would treat each and every contestant the same, royal or no.  It is only rumored that Harrehall was intended to be a secret council.    There was no proof, but it was interesting that the world book mentioned it.   No, I don't think Harrenhall was rigged.    I'm rereading your comment and wondering if you believe Rhaegar's win was the result of a conspiracy with the KG?   

[Lord Lannister]

When you consider the trio who died at the Tower of Joy, it is safe to say that at least some of the Kingsguard was personally loyal to Rhaegar to go along with whatever plans he might have.

[purple-eyes]

OK Purple Eyes, I think it's Selmy who relates the story of Harrenhall to Dany and cites that Rhaegar was unstoppable that day.  I"m not on the Rhaegar hate train as by most accounts he was a fine tourney fighter.   I would hope that anyone (KG included) competing in a Tournament would treat each and every contestant the same, royal or no.  It is only rumored that Harrehall was intended to be a secret council.    There was no proof, but it was interesting that the world book mentioned it.   No, I don't think Harrenhall was rigged.    I'm rereading your comment and wondering if you believe Rhaegar's win was the result of a conspiracy with the KG?   

Yes, I think so. 

I think he and his KG planned this as a wonderful public relationship. 

this is not a dreamy world. Very practical. 

Even Baelor breakspear himself said KG would not hurt royal members. 

Not to mention how important HH tourney is. I do believe Rhaegar is the secret sponsor of it. 

I think Lord Whent may manipulate the order of jousters: for example, let Arthur Dayne deal with some great jousters. 

This tourney is like a president campaign for him and he will try his best to get the best outcome (for the good of the country)

His mad daddy needs to be deposed and I do not think this is a bad thing to do. 

Barri said if he was a better knight he will win, not a better jouster.

Of course Rhaegar got the champion but ruined everything for Lyanna, but that is something which happened later due to his poor control of his personal desire. 

 

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

Thanks for the clarification of your position.    I'll read it all again with this in mind to see if I can see it.   

[Lord Wraith]

I think the original plan was to gather most of the high lords to gather for a council to depose Aerys and crown Rhaegar. It also would have helped put a stop to those Southern Ambitions. Aerys catches wind of this, likely via Varys and attends the event. Aerys hadn't left the Red Keep in years at that point so his attendance was unexpected.

Did they let Rhaegar win the Tournament? Certainly possible. 

[FC_Lymond]

Naw. Just a young northern witch in the audience cursing his opponents.  After that, he had to give her that blue flower bouquet. 

[purple-eyes]

Naw. Just a young northern witch in the audience cursing his opponents.  After that, he had to give her that blue flower bouquet. 

Oh, Lyanna warged Rhaegar and won the tourney, that is why he gave her the crown because she is the real champion. 

We all know what a magnificent jouster Lyanna is. 

 

[Targaryen Restoration]

We know upsets in which the more skilled gets knocked down by the less-skilled happens in jousting.  Jorah won the whole tournament in Lannisport and he's not the most skilled at jousting.  Rhaegar just had the luck that week.  And besides, Barristan would never throw a match on purpose.  Consider another possibility.  The same powers that gave skill to the knight of the laughing tree may have lent his skills to Rhaegar to guarantee his wins.  Likely, this was done to drive a wedge between the Targaryens, the Starks, and the Baratheons.  The Stark-Baratheon engagement needed to be broken.  If it was Bloodraven, then I can see him repeating the same stunt to prevent the wedding of Joffrey to Sansa.  Me thinks Stark + Baratheon leads to destruction of the realm. 

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

We know upsets in which the more skilled gets knocked down by the less-skilled happens in jousting.  Jorah won the whole tournament in Lannisport and he's not the most skilled at jousting.  Rhaegar just had the luck that week.  And besides, Barristan would never throw a match on purpose.  Consider another possibility.  The same powers that gave skill to the knight of the laughing tree may have lent his skills to Rhaegar to guarantee his wins.  Likely, this was done to drive a wedge between the Targaryens, the Starks, and the Baratheons.  The Stark-Baratheon engagement needed to be broken.  If it was Bloodraven, then I can see him repeating the same stunt to prevent the wedding of Joffrey to Sansa.  Me thinks Stark + Baratheon leads to destruction of the realm. 

But Joff is not a Baratheon.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Well we sort of get from Barristan's PoV that he was being very careful not to harm Rhaegar, so that fact that 2 or more of the best competitors weren't trying their best against him certainly gave him an unfair advantage.

[DanaKz]

I cannot believe Rhaegar went so far to organize this Council, to spend a lot of money on that - and to throw it all to toilet only because 1) his daddy decided to attend (seriously? How did it went: "Guys, let's get together and kick Aerys's ass!" - "Cool! Let's do it! By the way, here is Aerys! Should we start?"  - "Oh shit, ok then, let's not kick his ass"?) and 2) because he decided to crown other man's fiancee, like - I need Baratheon's, Stark's and Martell's voices, what should I do? Hah, I will slight them all in one move, surely they will luuurve me. That doesn't look logical.

That's why I don't believe he was the one who organized the tournament - I mean, if he was political enough to organize it, he would be clever enough to understand, that crowning Lyanna was not smart move, he was sabotaging his own work.

I don't believe it was Tywin, who organized this tournament, but I have a theory that it was Doran's doing, or Doran's idea, so I think probably it was Oberyn, who gave money to lord Whent . Rhaegar was Elia's husband and Elia was queen-to-be, but her status was insecure - Aerys thought about disowning Rhaegar, and she didn't give Rhaegar son yet. So, Rhaegar had to win, he give the crown to Elia, and people start shouting "Rhaegar The King!" and Lewyn Martell and Arthur to seize Aerys - like, something like that, but something went wrong. 

  If Rhaegar was not aware of lords' plans to crown him - well, in this case he was free to alienate lords.

[DanaKz]

Just to clarify -  Why I don't believe it was Tywin behind Whent's back - Tywin would finish the work, would it be Jaime, not Jaime, Lyanna's crown or not Lyanna's crown - he would attend the tourney and he would place Rhaegar on throne kicking and screaming.

[J. Stargaryen]

No. Rhaegar participated in three tourneys that we know of, finishing 2nd, 2nd, and 1st. He lost in the finals at Lannisport to Dayne, and at Storm's End to Selmy. Prior to the HH tourney, he had only those two losses on his jousting record that we know of, but had an even record (1-1) with both of the men who defeated him. Based on what we know, he was arguably the best jouster in the realm at the time of the HH tourney. Whatever his fascination with Lyanna was, it gave him the extra boost needed to defeat all comers that day.

[corbon]

Well we sort of get from Barristan's PoV that he was being very careful not to harm Rhaegar, so that fact that 2 or more of the best competitors weren't trying their best against him certainly gave him an unfair advantage.

I only bothered quoting this one post, but it is essentially the same bullshit that a lot of others are spouting.

Rhaegar was a very very good jouster, one of the very best around. The list of guys he has beaten is long and varied, much too varied to be 'gifts'. The list of guys he has lost to is tiny. Just two, both of whom he beat more often than he lost to. See below for further details.

He didn't win other tourneys (that we know of, we don't know the full list of his activities, successes or failures)) because he hardly ever entered. However his worst known Tourney performance is 2nd place.

There is no evidence at all that either Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne were not trying their best against him. The claim that they were not is ridiculous, given that they have both beaten him in the past. Clearly they didn't have a problem beating him before, no reason they should now. Note that in one famous bout Rhaegar and Arthur broke 12 lances on each other before Rheagar was declared the winner. You can't do that holding back.
Note also that the 'idea' the the KG couldn't compete fairly against the prince is misappropriated here. It comes from the Hedge Knight where Baelor Breakspear (then crown prince) fought in a Trial of the Seven on behalf of Dunk the lunk. the opposition included 3 KG who were sworn not to harm him. The important difference though is that this was a Trial by combat, fought to death or defeat, not a simple joust. The KG aren't free to deliberately harm the prince, so Baelor used that as an advantage in the trial..
But while there are risks in a joust, the aim is not to injure the opponent  but to unseat them. The KG can do that freely, as Barristan did to Rhaegar at the Tourney of Storms End. And clearly Arthur Dayne did at Viserys' birth Tourney.

Here are Rhaegar's results in the three known Tourneys he competed in:
i) Tournament in honourof Viserys' birth (in Lannisport) - defeated Tygett Lannister, Gerion Lannister, 12 of Lord Tywin's finest knights and Barristan Selmy. Defeated by Arthur Dayne, the overall winner. Seems like 2nd place (not sure).
ii) Tournament at Storms End - defeated Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, Prince Oberyn Martell, a mystery knight who turned out to be Simon Toyne, and, after breaking twelve lances, Ser Arthur Dayne. Defeated by Ser Barristan Selmy in the champion's tilt. Final place, 2nd.
iii) Tournament at Harrenhal - defeated Bronze Yohn Royce, Brandon Stark, Arthur Dayne and in the final tilt, Barristan Selmy. Final place, 1st
So he's beaten everyone from everywhere every time, except the finest two knights in the kingdom. He has a 2/3 record against both Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne*, widely acknowledged as the two greatest knights around.
You could argue, without any textual support mind you, that some of those victories might be people not trying too hard against the prince. But if you argue that Simon Toyne, Oberyn Martell and Brandon Stark were soft on him, then you are just showing the world what an idiot you are.

*though frankly, 1 of those is after breaking 12 lances each and should really be a draw, so call it 1.5/3 would be fairer than 2/3.

No, the result was not rigged. There is zero evidence that suggests it and overwhelming evidence that as a jouster, Rhaegar really was that good.
People refuse to accept that, because they hate him, but the data is clear and unambiguous.
 

[joluoto2]

It could have been, since if certain theories are true it would have been used as a platform to discuss Aerys madness, and who better to lead that discussion than the valiant Crown Prince who just won the tourney. Of course everything fell apart when Aerys attended the tourney.