Jump to content

Your Random ASOIAF/TWOIAF/D&E Opinions, Confessions and Dirty Secrets, (making the) 8. [The Seven was cursed]


JonCon's Red Beard

Recommended Posts

And I think this law is sick. What if your superior officer is an inexperienced teenager who is sending you to a freezing death.

Well to be fair no military organizations that I know of have an elected leader. And he wasn't sending him off to die but to do an essential task for the defence of the Wall. But to address the larger issue, historically speaking leadership incompetence almost never resulted in clemency for mutineers. If you look at the 17th, 18th and early 19th century when commissions could be purchased in the European armed forces many a body of men found themselves under a cruel, ignorant, untrained young noble who would almost certainly get them killed. Mutiny against that officer though would also mean death, especially in the Navy. 

But you also have to consider that the commander of a military organization simply cannot let a subordinate defy him openly. That action is directly undermining his authority. If he has no authority the chain of command breaks down. In a crisis situation, such insubordination is mutiny and therefore beyond the pale.

A;so you should note that Jon took no action when Slynt defied him in private. But when he did it in public he left Jon no choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I think this law is sick. What if your superior officer is an inexperienced teenager who is sending you to a freezing death.

He wasn't sending Slynt to die. He was sending him to repair and garrison a castle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder why the reaction to the execution of Janos Slynt was not mixed. Even puppy eating slavers receive more sympathy than Poor Slynt. Slynt might deserve death for different reason but killing him for insubordination is one of the most tyrant like action anyone had ever done in the story. While Dany's slaver crucifixion creates so much debates I have never seen debates over this morally questionable action. May be I am fed up with the slaver debates and feels other character's moral choices should be questioned more.

My reaction was generally just that of indifference seeing how Slynt was basically a c-list villain with nothing interesting about him.  Though, I find it somewhat amusing that Jon, who in AGOT repeatedly acted as bad if not worse than Slynt, is the one that executes him for his "crime."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, Jon (didn't even order but) asked Slynt to go twice before Slynt insulted him and (hilariously) told him to shove his orders up to his bastard's ass (:lol:) in front of everybody*. Not even Thorne, who is depicted as Jon's antagonist has defied his orders because he knows how their system works: they need someone in charge, and they are meant to follow this person's orders, even if they don't like them. If Jon had let Slynt's disobedience to go unpunished, he was risking himself and everybody else to a mutiny because people would find out that their leader is a weak man, which is what kinda happened at Craster's (even though Jeor wasn't exactly "weak").

 

*he told him that in front of everybody, not that Jon should do that in front of everybody...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder why the reaction to the execution of Janos Slynt was not mixed. Even puppy eating slavers receive more sympathy than Poor Slynt. Slynt might deserve death for different reason but killing him for insubordination is one of the most tyrant like action anyone had ever done in the story. While Dany's slaver crucifixion creates so much debates I have never seen debates over this morally questionable action. May be I am fed up with the slaver debates and feels other character's moral choices should be questioned more.

It was pretty much explained above. Plus, Slynt was a crappy human being that deserved it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, so a couple days ago I started getting Christmas songs stuck in my head. Therefore, I have composed a magnificent musical masterpiece, to be sung to the melody of Twelve Days of Christmas.

On the twelfth day of winter, my true love gave to me:
Twelve heroes seeking,
Eleven zombies rising,
Ten swords at the Tower,
Nine weirwoods watching,
Eight eunuch legions,
Seven Sand Snakes scheming,
Six newborn direwolves,
Five kings at war,
Four Faceless Men,
Three Frey pies,
Two fatal weddings,
And a claim to the Iron Throne!

Why is no one replying to your great post? I think you're being terribly unapprecciated, tbh. All i can say is that this is great. :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I think this law is sick. What if your superior officer is an inexperienced teenager who is sending you to a freezing death.

The law might look sick to you and me, but they aren't playing by our rules. In any case, insubordination is still punished in military environments, only not by death and first people is given a fair trial. In Westeros, the concept of "fair trial" as we know it doesn't exist.

Remember that Westeros is used to be ruled by blood, not by merits. They all have a boy King of 9 who is on the throne because he's the son of a man who actually fought a war. But such boy by himself has done nothing. This is a concept everybody at the Wall is aware of, and funny enough, Slynt wanted to evoke this to be elected: that he was the right one for the job because he knew people of the "right blood" and name who were close to the boy king. Except that, when he wasn't elected, the rule suddenly didn't look so attractive to him and he just didnt' want to be leaded by some bastard boy that everybody else elected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think most leaders in Jon's position would have executed Slynt there. Dany, Robb, Tywin, Stannis, Ned, Robert... All would have done. Though Slynt might have had the sense to not refuse orders from some of those leaders.

And Slynt's reason for disobeying was basically because he didn't like Jon or his orders, not because the orders were unfair or Jon was treating him unfairly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think most leaders in Jon's position would have executed Slynt there. Dany, Robb, Tywin, Stannis, Ned, Robert... All would have done. Though Slynt might have had the sense to not refuse orders from some of those leaders.

And Slynt's reason for disobeying was basically because he didn't like Jon or his orders, not because the orders were unfair or Jon was treating him unfairly.

Robb and Dany have certainly punished people for less, so they would definitely execute someone who plainly insults them to their face and in front of their people, which btw, brings me to another important point. 

The image of a leader in the times of ASOIAF is very important. If people perceive a leader as someone who does nothing, that's the seed for rebellion and it's dangerous. Much is said about how Dany executed the slavers, but it's more than just "revenge!": they defied her and insulted her. She needed to prove to her followers (specially considering that her ruling was very weak yet) that she's not one to be mocked. Blame sexism or whatever, but even today, the way in which our leaders influence a lot in politics and they are either praised or shamed for how they respond to threats (look how some press has talked about Obama and how another talks about Putin).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jon had every right to lop slynt's head off. Slynt showed up during a chaotic time, tried to have jon killed knowing nothing of his mission or it's importance in the wars to come, and twice defied The Lord commanders assignment meeting it the last time with insubordination. Like it or not, once you're on the wall you're pretty much property of The Lord commander. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder why the reaction to the execution of Janos Slynt was not mixed. Even puppy eating slavers receive more sympathy than Poor Slynt. Slynt might deserve death for different reason but killing him for insubordination is one of the most tyrant like action anyone had ever done in the story. While Dany's slaver crucifixion creates so much debates I have never seen debates over this morally questionable action. May be I am fed up with the slaver debates and feels other character's moral choices should be questioned more.

 

And I think this law is sick. What if your superior officer is an inexperienced teenager who is sending you to a freezing death.

For the love of god. What do you think military organizations are? Debate clubs? Where everyone's views are supposed to get equal respect?


Like my one of my old instructors said, "if your co even says 'I wish' or 'I would like', you can pretty much take that as an order."
I don't know where you are coming from, but, you know, even in modern militaries outright insubordination is viewed very seriously. And over the course of history, capital punishment for outright insubordination hasn't been unusual.


And as for '' is an inexperienced teenager who is sending you to a freezing death." How do you think an experienced thirty-something nco feels when he has to take an order from a twenty-something lieutenant? It would be one thing if Slynt had offered up helpful suggestions to Jon, explaining to Jon why he was about to fuck up, which was what good ncos do with young officers who about to do something stupid because of their inexperience. But, Slynt didn't really do that.


Slynt's mission was surely a tough one. But, it wasn't a suicide mission either. In the RW, soldiers have often been asked to do things much more dangerous than what Slynt was asked to do. Being asked to cross 800 meters of wheat fields that was exposed to intense machine gun and artillery fire being one  of many examples. In the world of ASOIAF, I am pretty sure the average soldier or knight  is often asked to do more dangerous things than Slynt was. Most likely Dany will ask her Unsullied to, no she will  order them to, do more dangerous things.


Also, there was no doubt about Slynt's guilt. That's a key distinction.

May be I am fed up with the slaver debates and feels other character's moral choices should be questioned more.

Which characters are you referring to whose moral choices aren't questioned more? Jaime? Sandor? Sansa? Arya? Stannis? Tyrion?  About all these characters have done morally questionable things, that is deserving at least of some criticism or scrutiny. And most of them have serious detractors on this board. Look, Jon isn't even my favorite character. But, the fact is that Jon has acted better ethically than most characters. If you don't like it, take it up with GRRM.


I like Brienne. I think she is a wonderful person. But she isn't my favorite character. But, I am not going to complain because GRRM has decided, for whatever reason, to portray her as one of the better people in ASIOAF and a person who has acted ethically better than characters I like better.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Sorry for bringing these from so many days ago:

Yay, you named it "making the eight"! Robert would be so proud 

I find it curious when I hear/read/watch something for the first time and suddenly I encounter it everywhere.

This "Making the Eight" thing I only found a couple of days ago playing the AGOT mod of Crusader Kings 2 [1.0], and apparently everybody has known about it all along. I had to look it up and is from the TV show; I probably blocked it out or forgotten all about it, I only watched the first season once and never again.

I'm really, really, really excited to read the Wind of Winter. IT'S ALMOST HERE!!!

As we all know, Winter is coming!

Winter is already here. There was a big white raven from the Citadel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Sorry for bringing these from so many days ago:

I find it curious when I hear/read/watch something for the first time and suddenly I encounter it everywhere.

This "Making the Eight" thing I only found a couple of days ago playing the AGOT mod of Crusader Kings 2 [1.0], and apparently everybody has known about it all along. I had to look it up and is from the TV show; I probably blocked it out or forgotten all about it, I only watched the first season once and never again.

I had to look it up too. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, so a couple days ago I started getting Christmas songs stuck in my head. Therefore, I have composed a magnificent musical masterpiece, to be sung to the melody of Twelve Days of Christmas.

On the twelfth day of winter, my true love gave to me:
Twelve heroes seeking,
Eleven zombies rising,
Ten swords at the Tower,
Nine weirwoods watching,
Eight eunuch legions,
Seven Sand Snakes scheming,
Six newborn direwolves,
Five kings at war,
Four Faceless Men,
Three Frey pies,
Two fatal weddings,
And a claim to the Iron Throne!
 

I came up with one myself just the other day, it's close to yours at some points.

On the twelfth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me:

Twelve Whites a-shambling

Eleven Faceless Killers

Ten Lords Conspiring

Nine Ladies Waiting

Eight Dornish Bastards

Seven Ripened Kingdoms

Six Sacrifices

FIVE WARRING KINGS

Four Lying Freys

Three Dragons

Two Bloody Spears,

And the Stump of a Weirwood Tree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...