Allyria Dayne Daughter of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark???

[corbon]

Is Dark Star a first cousin?

I don't think its clear, but probably further apart than that. He's a Dayne of High Hermitage, a cadet branch of the House.

Interestingly, I just noticed High Hermitage is probably on the route Ned Stark took from ToJ to Starfall...

[Regular John Umber]

I don't think its clear, but probably further apart than that. He's a Dayne of High Hermitage, a cadet branch of the House.

Interestingly, I just noticed High Hermitage is probably on the route Ned Stark took from ToJ to Starfall...

 Doran thinks Dark Star is the most dangerous man in Dorne. Maybe it's because of what he knows? Maybe it's linked to the rebellion and Ned's trip into dorne?

[corbon]

 

 Doran thinks Dark Star is the most dangerous man in Dorne. Maybe it's because of what he knows? Maybe it's linked to the rebellion and Ned's trip into dorne?

That thought came to me, but its doesn't seem to work well. First, it seems Darkstar's not old enough to have been involved then. And second, that would imply Doran knows more about that part of the past than makes sense on several levels.

It could be. But we just have nothing really to work with here in terms of speculating either way.
Its not even necessary that Ned took that route. It just seems like a good possibility. If there is an east-west pass somewhere along or close to the Prince's Pass, then its really not all that big a trip from ToJ to Starfall. Through the shortish east-west pass and down the river...

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Edric Dayne was born in 287 AC, several years after the rebellion and Allyria is his aunt. I think she was born before the rebellion

Everything actually points to Allyria being tge same age or close to the age of Jon and Robb, if she was born before the rebellion it wasn't too long before hand. I am actually of the belief that she is Jon's twin but that's another theory this is a good thread too.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

It's possible.  The fact that she's betrothed but not yet married to Beric gives an age range that, at the very least, is significantly younger than Ashara.  

But we don't know enough about old Lord Dayne.  Maybe he remarried later in life so Allyria is a half-sibling.  There's also the issue that Ashara was rumored to be pregnant, so her mother (or step-mother) unexpectedly giving birth around the same time that Ashara miscarried and/or killed herself would probably throw up some flags.  Now... if both were pregnant and Lord Dayne's wife is the one who miscarried, a "simple" baby swap would be workable.  

But that still leaves the question of why.  What's the point?  Would a secret Stark-Dayne bastard that has barely been mentioned serve any purpose to the story?  

Very good point 

[Impbread]

Yea I def. jumped to the conclusion that he loved her because she threw herself into the sea. But as Harwin said that may be because she lost a brother.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I think that Ned is the one that had sex with Ashara… in any case, we don't know if Ashara had child, that it was a girl and that she was stillborn. There is Barry, but we simply cannot know.

[Boudica]

Yes, perhaps.
But its not something to quote as a reference for Ned loving Ashara, because its only perhaps and even then thats only one step towards the conclusion, not a direct reference.
And remember to look at the whole story. Ned's not specifically shy of Ashara, he's shy, period. And he wasn't just not asking her to dance, he was too shy to ask anyone to dance, still sitting on his bench. 
The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword [her brother Arthur], a red snake [Oberyn Martell], and the lord of griffins [Jon Connington], and lastly with the quiet wolf [Ned Stark]...but only after the wild wolf [Brandon Stark] spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Ned is also the last person Ashara danced with. It could mean that they only had one dance or it could mean that they perhaps liked each other and spend the rest of the evening dancing together. 

It would seem very obvious that someone like Brandon, with his history, would hook-up with Ashara, but it would also make some sense if Ashara actually hooked-up with Ned. 

Both Ned and Ashara where not promised to anyone else, they are more liberal in Dorne then in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Ned could very well have gotten together with Ashara with the intention of getting married in the future. But sometimes other things happen and even plans with the best of intentions does not always come to fruition.   

In the meantime Brandon was killed and Ned had to take up the duty as the Lord Winterfell. Ned had to marry Catelyn for the support of the Riverlands, in order to win the Rebellion. If Ned was in the situation where he had to choose between the duty of the Lord of Winterfell and Ashara, it would draw some great parallels between Ned, Robb and Jon. Robb had to choose between his duty as the King in the North by marrying a Frey or honouring Jeyne Westerling, and Jon had to choose between his duty towards the Nights Watch and staying with Ygritte.

Ned might not have known that Ashara was pregnant when he got married to Catelyn, or baby might already have been stillborn. Throughout AGOT Ned is constantly haunted by his mistakes in plural, he also tells Cercei that he has made many mistakes in his life. It is interesting to wonder what mistakes he could be referring to. We automatically assume that he is thinking of Jon, but would he really see his protection of Jon as a mistake? Or mistakes in plural? Perhaps his real mistake is that he and Ashara got together before they were married, and that she killed herself because of his actions. 

It would tie up a lot of loose ends if Ned and Ashara where actually the ones who hooked-up at the tourney of Harrenhal. It would explain why she told him where he could find Lyanna. It would also make Ashara a very tragic figure, she didn't just lose her brother and her baby, she also lost her lover and her lover was the one who killed her brother.    

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

That thought came to me, but its doesn't seem to work well. First, it seems Darkstar's not old enough to have been involved then. And second, that would imply Doran knows more about that part of the past than makes sense on several levels.

It could be. But we just have nothing really to work with here in terms of speculating either way.
Its not even necessary that Ned took that route. It just seems like a good possibility. If there is an east-west pass somewhere along or close to the Prince's Pass, then its really not all that big a trip from ToJ to Starfall. Through the shortish east-west pass and down the river...

 

Darkstar is of age to have been a squire at the time of the Tower of Joy

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

My Opinion

 

Why would Ashara have to hide Allyria if she was her child ?

1) Allyria is the twin to Jon Snow, so that child would be hidden the same as Jon

2) Aerys raped Ashara, who gave birth to Allyria and hid her. Reason Aerys did this to get back at Arthur and his son Rhaegar as well as the Starks who he may have saw as a making another political move with a big Dornish family.

 

Ashara was in love with Ned, he came to Starfall with Dawn and news of Arthur's death not to mention he is now married which pushes her over the edge.

[Dimmu Borgir]

Probably a more sound alternative as to how Ashara connects to the main story, but as someone else pointed out. What would be the "point" of Allyria in the story?

[AlaskanSandman]

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"Tell me."

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

"That's not so. He loved my lady mother."

 

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born."

Ok no. Just no. 

 

How can Allyria be Edric's aunt, along with Ashara Dayne. Yet Allyria be Ashara's daughter?? No, just no. 

That would make Allyria a cousin to Edric, not his aunt.

 

Idk how this theory got started.

 

Edit- Allyria and Ashara Dayne are sisters. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Edric's father is the Eldest brother, with Arthur also among the siblings. 2 of which are dead, presumably. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Well, that is unless Allyria married Arthur Dayne. Yee-awl down under der in Dorne be keepin dem family trees real slender if that's the case. That would mean Edric's uncle married his niece in that scenario. That would be the only way to grapple those two facts though. Just sayin. 

Edit- Fixed Edric's father to his uncle Arthur, as i erred. That would have made Allyria Edric's mother, not aunt.

[AlaskanSandman]

As Arthur was a Kingsguard and couldn't marry, this isn't possible. There also isn't any other brother to Arthur we know of other than Edric's father. But Edric's father marrying his niece would make Allyria Edric's mother, not aunt.

SO, the only possible scenario. Is that Allyria is the sister of Ashara Dayne, not her daughter.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

SO, the only possible scenario. Is that Allyria is the sister of Ashara Dayne, not her daughter.

I think you may be misunderstanding - the theory proposes that Allyria is secretly Ashara's daughter and officially her sister. Young Ned probably doesn't even know her real identity(if the theory is correct, of course). But the phrasing that "Brandon died before he had sons" does allow for some bastard daughters (or even a posthumous son).

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I think you may be misunderstanding - the theory proposes that Allyria is secretly Ashara's daughter and officially her sister. Young Ned probably doesn't even know her real identity(if the theory is correct, of course). But the phrasing that "Brandon died before he had sons" does allow for some bastard daughters (or even a posthumous son).

Ahhhhhh............... 

            Well, run with it i guess haha

[Corvo the Crow]

I've never seen this thread (obviously, with it being rhllor kissed just a few hours ago) but here's the math of it, I've done for Eddard + Ashara = Allyria.

Edric's father is older than Arthur and Ashara is their younger sister.

Jaime is the youngest ever to become a king's guard at the age of 15 in 281, and Arthur was already kingsguard at the time so Arthur is older than himby at least a few years.

Beric Dondarrion isn't even 22 at the start of the series, he took Edric as his page when he  betrothed to her "Aunt" Edric was 7 at the time, Beric made him his squire when he was 10 in ASOS Edric's 12.

Ashara, becoming a handmaid for Elia very recently was probably even younger than Eddard, who was 19 at the time if I'm not mistaken.

They wait at the very least for the bride to "flower" and most highborn maidens flower when they are 12-13 says Septa Mordane and this held true for Sansa. Alys Karstark, however, flowered when she was 14 or 15 so no reason Allyria Dayne wouldn't flower late either. If she was conceived in Harrenhal, she would be a few months older than Robb, who was 14 at the start of the series.

 

In light of all these, it could be very well possible she flowered around the time of the Hand's Tourney and Beric would go to marry her if it wasn't for the war. It may be even possible she flowered before the tourney and Beric was going to marry her after it.

There's simply too much of an age difference between Ashara and Allyria for them to be sisters, unless their father married again.

 

 

[Chris Mormont]

On 12/4/2015 at 8:46 AM, CJ McLannister said:

But that still leaves the question of why.  What's the point?

The point is that Allyria would not be considered a bastard, and thus have an opportunity to marry a lord or other noble. 

The time line works and the logic is there.  Ned got Ashara pregnant at the HH tourney.  They part not knowing this and before Ashara can get word to Ned, the Rebellion begins, Ned marries and gets Catlynn pregnant and goes off to war.  Whether or not Ashara helps Ned find Lyanna, we know that Ned returns Dawn back to Starfall where he probably sees Ashara.  She realizes Ned will never break his honor and will not leave Catlynn so she kills herself. The baby was still being raised by her mother and would not be considered a bastard.  

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Chris Mormont said:

The point is that Allyria would not be considered a bastard, and thus have an opportunity to marry a lord or other noble. 

The time line works and the logic is there.  Ned got Ashara pregnant at the HH tourney.  They part not knowing this and before Ashara can get word to Ned, the Rebellion begins, Ned marries and gets Catlynn pregnant and goes off to war.  Whether or not Ashara helps Ned find Lyanna, we know that Ned returns Dawn back to Starfall where he probably sees Ashara.  She realizes Ned will never break his honor and will not leave Catlynn so she kills herself. The baby was still being raised by her mother and would not be considered a bastard.  

Add to that Ned probably doesn't even know of his bastard daughter. If he did, he would have taken her to the North.

[maudisdottir]

I've suggested before (many times, probably bored you all with it) that Brandon asked Ashara to dance off his own bat as a way in with her, while making himself look like a good guy (and coincidentally, highlighting the differences between his charming self and his shy, plain brother at the very first opportunity). It's not like he could ask her to dance himself, being already betrothed. So he needed a way to speak to her, and make a favourable impression (which worked - she said yes).

But after reading this thread I looked at that quote again, and the words:

Quote

on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench

make me even more convinced - Ned wasn't just too shy to ask Ashara, he was too shy to dance at all, and most likely didn't even want Brandon to play wingman for him. This doesn't sound like a guy who asked his older brother to intervene on his behalf, but rather, he would more likely protest that he's just fine where he is, because he doesn't want to leave his bench (like a true wallflower, blending into the background).

If George was trying to imply that Ned did want Brandon to intervene for him, he could have written "but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to ask her himself". But he doesn't say that.