Allyria Dayne Daughter of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark???

[Faera]

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

I've suggested before (many times, probably bored you all with it) that Brandon asked Ashara to dance off his own bat as a way in with her, while making himself look like a good guy (and coincidentally, highlighting the differences between his charming self and his shy, plain brother at the very first opportunity). It's not like he could ask her to dance himself, being already betrothed. So he needed a way to speak to her, and make a favourable impression (which worked - she said yes).

But after reading this thread I looked at that quote again, and the words:

make me even more convinced - Ned wasn't just too shy to ask Ashara, he was too shy to dance at all, and most likely didn't even want Brandon to play wingman for him. This doesn't sound like a guy who asked his older brother to intervene on his behalf, but rather, he would more likely protest that he's just fine where he is, because he doesn't want to leave his bench (like a true wallflower, blending into the background).

If George was trying to imply that Ned did want Brandon to intervene for him, he could have written "but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to ask her himself". But he doesn't say that.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

[maudisdottir]

I could go even further and speculate that Brandon used that very fact (that he was "too shy to leave his bench") to approach Ashara and ask her to be his co-conspirator in getting his shy brother to dance. As in, ask her to come over to "his bench" and persuade Ned to dance, instead of Brandon going back to relay her acceptance to a waiting Ned. In my scenario, Ned is reluctant rather than anxiously anticipating the outcome of Brandon's quest. Why would the socially awkward guy want the two hottest people in the room intimidating him into doing something he doesn't want to?

So Brandon forms an instant bond with Ashara in order to do something nice for his plain, shy younger brother - making himself look good (with a bonus of making her feel pretty good about herself, too, by doing something kind for the younger brother) thereby setting up for romantic shenanigans later. Smooth.

And yes I know I'm reading a lot into six words! I'm having a slow morning, but I stand by my original post.

[Ygrain]

16 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Why would the socially awkward guy want the two hottest people in the room intimidating him into doing something he doesn't want to?

That is a good point. Shy people don't tend to make arrangements to get to dance with the hottest girl around.

Not to mention that the hottest girls around don't tend to fall for the shy plain fallflowers when there is a dashin charmer around.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Allyria cannot be the daughter of  either Brandon Stark or Eddard Stark . She is a Dayne not a Stark or a Snow. And only a king can remove the stain of bastardy .

[maudisdottir]

I don't know if Allyria is the daughter of Ashara and Brandon, or if Ashara truly did lose her baby and throw herself into the sea. There aren't enough clues in the books for me to be sure yet, but I'm confident this is a mystery that George plans to reveal by the end. I would love for their child to still be alive, to have another Starklet running around (Ashara too, for that matter). But after five books and no (confirmed) appearance, I don't know how significant this child is likely to be if it still exists.

And I also think some people interpret Barry's "soon after" a little too rigidly. It doesn't have to mean the next day or the same week, and he's an old man recalling this fifteen years later.

[Ygrain]

21 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

And I also think some people interpret Barry's "soon after" a little too rigidly. It doesn't have to mean the next day or the same week, and he's an old man recalling this fifteen years later.

That's what I consider a plausible explanation, too.

[Faera]

I think if Ashara Dayne is the mother of any named character in the books, it is probably is Allyria. It won’t be Jon, definitely isn’t Daenerys and the idea she’s (f)Aegon’s or Meera’s mother is just wishful thinking for her happy survival. Ashara is a character who I feel is destined to be one, giant red herring and someone like Allyria is the icing on the cake. After all, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Ashara was swept off her feet by fiery Brandon, had one night of passion that left her pregnant, and that her child was Allyria who was then passed off as her sister to ensure the child could still have the hopes of making a decent match one day.

All the rumours that followed are circumstantial and wires being crossed to where people came to their own conclusions about what happened.

As interesting as it might be for Ashara to still be alive, as another possible witness to what happened after the ToJ, another part of me almost anticipates that hers is a story to be taken at face value...

A beautiful young lady-in-waiting “with laughing purple eyes”, highly popular and full of promise at court is seduced by the tall, exciting and fiery heir to the North — a man she cannot have because he is engaged to the eldest Tully daughter. Not only does he get her pregnant but he is ultimately slaughtered by the Mad King, her Princess’s father-in-law. Thus, she loses her status and the father of her child is murdered, causing a war. Then, perhaps she does love her baby too - and Allyria really is just her sister. Arthur’s death might have been the straw that broke the camel’s back. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Allyria cannot be the daughter of  either Brandon Stark or Eddard Stark . She is a Dayne not a Stark or a Snow. And only a king can remove the stain of bastardy .

You have heard of the old practice of passing a bastard of your daughters off as a younger sibling, right? I mean it was quite common right up to and including the 1960/70's. The fact that it still cropped up in the storyline of a rather popular UK soap Opera as recently as the early 2000's should inform you as to how frequently people did this. And if you aren't British or never watched EastEnders then just take my word for it. Or google Zoe and Kat Slater.

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, Faera said:

Then, perhaps she does love her baby too - and Allyria really is just her sister. Arthur’s death might have been the straw that broke the camel’s back. 

Which is pretty much what the book says at face value. I'm somewhere in the middle between this on one side and the child lived (and is most likely Allyria) on the other, but I'm still on the fence.  Ashara is IMO kept deliberately vague because of her involvement after (or maybe even during) the events of the TOJ, but the possibility of a deeper mystery is intriguing and I want there to be more to it than the tragedy we're given on the page, with none of the three (A/B/baby) or Arthur surviving.

[Faera]

10 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Which is pretty much what the book says at face value. I'm somewhere in the middle between this on one side and the child lived (and is most likely Allyria) on the other, but I'm still on the fence.  Ashara is IMO kept deliberately vague because of her involvement after (or maybe even during) the events of the TOJ, but the possibility of a deeper mystery is intriguing and I want there to be more to it than the tragedy we're given on the page, with none of the three (A/B/baby) or Arthur surviving.

Taking it at complete face-value for me would be to accept that Ned and Ashara had a thing, had a baby and that it was most likely Jon. It is the first version of the story we were tossed, and then as time went on the narrative shifted around. So, I wondered if Ashara's story might be a complete false lead. It wasn't Ned she had a fling with, it was Brandon. It wasn't Jon she gave birth to, it was Allyria or her baby girl was stillborn.

I do agree that she might have been somehow involved with the ToJ -- I have often wondered if she was the one who told Ned, Howland and the rest of the Magnificent Seven where. Perhaps she was feeding them information and the "Morte Arthure" was the consequence.As nice as it would be for her to survive, I feel weirdly invested in her tragic story where it actually does end with her dying.

The possibility of a deeper mystery is intriguing but, while I think her surviving would be interesting (again, she's another witness to ToJ possibly), everything about her feels like it is leading up to one big disappointment to me.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I do think it is worth pointing out that we may well, indeed quite likely will meet Allyria in TWOW. Given that Gerold Dayne is widely suspected to be about to steal Dawn, and Dawn is at Starfall where Allyria is Castellan. I for one will be studying the description we get of her for hints, a long face perhaps or unusual for a Dayne grey eyes. 

Just as a means to wangle in my own idea as to what may happen at Starfall. I think that Darkstar may attempt to persuade her into marriage, given Ned Dayne is missing going on three years presumed dead one assumes. And she is no longer betrothed as Beric is as dead as a man can get. She is likely now being presumed heir and needs a husband. I can see him trying to gain both Starfall and Dawn via this but her rejecting the offer and him snatching Dawn on his way out. Which brings me to my next prediction. He won't kill Hotah, because unless he and Obara side with Dayne we have no eyes on him until he rocks up in someone else POV. I mean sure he could kill them both and we don't see him again till he shows up at Storms end to swear fealty to fAegon, or in KL or wherever. But I think not. I think we'll see Starfall via Hotah cam, meet Allyria, and get our first glimpse of Dawn as it comes into play. 

[maudisdottir]

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I do think it is worth pointing out that we may well, indeed quite likely will meet Allyria in TWOW. Given that Gerold Dayne is widely suspected to be about to steal Dawn, and Dawn is at Starfall where Allyria is Castellan. I for one will be studying the description we get of her for hints, a long face perhaps or unusual for a Dayne grey eyes. 

You hurt my heart saying that. I was so sure the book would be out by Xmas, and we'd spend the break discussing all the new revelations. I'm sad.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I've been thinking the book will be out for xmas for three years. I'm staying hopeful and patient though. I was happy with Sons of the Dragon, though felt it needed better editing and more warmth in the  flesh of the characters, I'd hoped to feel like I knew Visenya but I was left feeling like she was just out of reach. I was gutted that we didn't get the physical descriptions of Dark Sister & Blackfyre. I'm very much looking forward to Fire & Blood next year though and am hopeful for TWOW.  I can wait. TBF I have had something ASOIAF released each year since I read the the books as I only read them in 2013 so should count myself lucky indeed!

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yes, I think it's very possible that Allyria could be Ashara's (and Brandon's or whoever else her lover might have been).

However, I would not like it to become anything more than a hint or, at most, an easter egg. I think we already have a tad too many cases of Hidden/False Parentage that has Consequences to the Story. This would be an overkill, IMO.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Yes, I think it's very possible that Allyria could be Ashara's (and Brandon's or whoever else her lover might have been).

However, I would not like it to become anything more than a hint or, at most, an easter egg. I think we already have a tad too many cases of Hidden/False Parentage that has Consequences to the Story. This would be an overkill, IMO.

I honestly think all we will get is that she has a long face. And then readers who notice these things can put two and two together and readers who don't will keep banging the Ashara is Jon's mother madness out and insist R+L=J is like too obvious man...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 minute ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I honestly think all we will get is that she has a long face. And then readers who notice these things can put two and two together and readers who don't will keep banging the Ashara is Jon's mother madness out and insist R+L=J is like too obvious man...

Something at this level would be OK, for my taste.

I also hope that Jon's parentage is revealed soon enough, I don't see the reason to keep it for the end anymore. Jon's "death" is a good opportunity to do this, like, Jon can finally get to the end of his crypt dream for examble.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I always thought it would come out in TWOW. Not the very end. I think it isn't that far from being revealed tbh. In ADWD there are the beginnings of hints that more people know something more than we were initially led to believe. Danaerys on route to her wedding to Hizdhar for example fantasises about Daario carrying her off at sword point if he truly loved her as Rhaegar had his northern girl. Which means Dany has been told the story of how Rhaegar took Lyanna and why. By sword point because he truly loved her.  Who told her this and how did they know it? The logical answer is Viserys told her. But he was 6 so why would his brother have confided his motivations in him? Seems more likely Rhaegar spoke to their mother about it on his return to KL and she in turn relayed that story to her other son, or to Darry who later told Viserys. So if Dany knows more about the story than was previously let on, how much does she know? Lets assume Rhaegar did speak to his mother (cos I can't think of another scenario that makes sense)  he had no reason to hold any information back from her. So his love, his reasons, if they married, that she was with child? all that is on the table as possibly in Dany's knowledge. Barristan rode to the Trident with Rhaegar and likewsie could know far more about Lyanna than has been hinted at so far, Jaime spoke with him in KL too. If Jaime were to end up at the wall things could get interesting. In AGOT the two did not interact, Jon observes Jaime but only speaks with Tyrion. Jaime as far as can be ascertained had no reason to even look at Jon for more than the briefest of moments, he was not on the dias, he didn't practice swords with the princes, if there s anything of Rhaegar in Jon's face it could be revealed if the two meet, not Barristan did not join the royal party until the trident and so never met Jon and Aemon is blind so never see's his face. We are led to believe Jon is a carbon copy of Ned and all Stark looks wise but I wonder why the author made sure that the characters most familiar with Rhaegar and Targaryen features never see him.?. Robert too who arguably as a cousin of the royal line might have been familiar enough with Rhaegar to notice the shape of a nose or eye or the distinctive shape of an ear etc doesn't see Jon for more than the briefest of moments in WF. Ditto Cersei. The only member of the party to actually interact with him at all is Tyrion who was too young to remember Rhaegar and likely never saw him in his life. 

Bran is a popular sourse of R+L=J coming out but TBH I think it will be a combination of people in different locations all realising some aspects and then as the book draws together and people begin converging the pieces will stack up until eventually it is out of the bag. I always thought this but when they basically did the same thing in that which shall not be named..Ie: had a few sources realise different elements of it then coming together and realising. well. I feel I'm probably right. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Oh I forgot! Also in ADWD in Kevan's epilogue, he reveals a big clanger that hardly anyone picks up on. The realm at large or at least the Lannisters knew he wanted more sons and that Elia's inability to provide them sparked his thing with Lyanna. He thinks to himself how if only the Prince had married Cersei she would have given him all the sons he desired and never had to look twice at the northern girl. I'll find the quote. But basically this is quite a big reveal as it means Rhaegar's desire for more children was a known motivator for his running off with Lyanna Stark so the idea that she might have been a bride not a victim might not be as unheard in Westeros as we are first given the impression of. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Here it is. 

Quote

Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

45 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I always thought it would come out in TWOW. Not the very end. I think it isn't that far from being revealed tbh. In ADWD there are the beginnings of hints that more people know something more than we were initially led to believe. Danaerys on route to her wedding to Hizdhar for example fantasises about Daario carrying her off at sword point if he truly loved her as Rhaegar had his northern girl. Which means Dany has been told the story of how Rhaegar took Lyanna and why. By sword point because he truly loved her.  Who told her this and how did they know it? (...) In AGOT the two did not interact, Jon observes Jaime but only speaks with Tyrion. Jaime as far as can be ascertained had no reason to even look at Jon for more than the briefest of moments, he was not on the dias, he didn't practice swords with the princes, if there s anything of Rhaegar in Jon's face it could be revealed if the two meet, not Barristan did not join the royal party until the trident and so never met Jon and Aemon is blind so never see's his face. We are led to believe Jon is a carbon copy of Ned and all Stark looks wise but I wonder why the author made sure that the characters most familiar with Rhaegar and Targaryen features never see him.?. Robert too who arguably as a cousin of the royal line might have been familiar enough with Rhaegar to notice the shape of a nose or eye or the distinctive shape of an ear etc doesn't see Jon for more than the briefest of moments in WF. Ditto Cersei. The only member of the party to actually interact with him at all is Tyrion who was too young to remember Rhaegar and likely never saw him in his life. 

Tyrion did glimpse Rhaegar twice or thrice he told Young Griff, but he also tells him that he was ten when he was killed. The two never interacted.

I don't think we're that far from the truth either. Jon was never presented to the royals and was kept well away from them. Barristan, though, I bet he was kept away on purpose. He knew Rhaegar from the time he was a baby all the way to the day he died. I think all it will take is for someone who really knew the man, who knew the story to take one look at Jon to see the truth.

About how Dany may have found out. I think there may have been rumors around the Red Keep that go beyond whatever Rhaegar may have confided in his mother. Barristan goes from telling Dany that it's not for him to speak to what was in Rhaegar's heart, and then he tells us point blank in his POV that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna. 

41 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Oh I forgot! Also in ADWD in Kevan's epilogue, he reveals a big clanger that hardly anyone picks up on. The realm at large or at least the Lannisters knew he wanted more sons and that Elia's inability to provide them sparked his thing with Lyanna. He thinks to himself how if only the Prince had married Cersei she would have given him all the sons he desired and never had to look twice at the northern girl. I'll find the quote. But basically this is quite a big reveal as it means Rhaegar's desire for more children was a known motivator for his running off with Lyanna Stark so the idea that she might have been a bride not a victim might not be as unheard in Westeros as we are first given the impression of. 

I think this one especially puts such a nice dent in the whole Visenya speculation. The other interesting thing about the quote is that Kevan has seen Lyanna. Now it remains to be seen if it was at Harrenhal (and we don't know if he was present since Tywin shunned it), or if it was elsewhere. 

On topic though, I was re-reading the passage when Barristan recalls Harrenhal and this is something I brought up before, that things between Brandon and Ashara must have happened after the whole QoLaB happened. It just seems like it's this event that may have had Ashara looking to Stark.