Allyria Dayne Daughter of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark???

[DaSh!t]

Hey ya'll

Ive seen lots of post about Ashara Dayne and how she committed suicide after she gave birth to a stillborn girl but what if her daughter wasn't stillborn? What if her mother claimed her daughter as her own.

If Allyria was conceived at the Tourney of Harrenhal then she'd be born in 282AL. According to the Wiki she was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion in 294AL when she was about 12 years old.

What if Ashara fell for Brandon and slept with him?? Then he left her to marry is betrothed Catelyn Tully..  Maybe Ned had intended to marry her to restore her honor as his brother was already betrothed.

Ashara may have still killed her self but not because she had a still birth but because the suicide would be due to the guilt felt over Arthur death given that it was Ashara who told Ned how to find his sister which resulted in the fight at the Tower of Joy. She was just trying to help Ned find his sister and she ended up indirectly killing Arthur.

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf...but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench." Ned is the quiet wolf while Brandon is the wild wolf..

I might be way off but I thought id share the post anyways

 

[purple-eyes]

this is tempting. 

But I always feel allyria is just a convenient plot tool to send Edric to Beric, then send him to Jon and Arya. 

 

 

[Nevets]

If Allyria is the daughter of a Stark, it is most likely Ned, not Brandon.  If so, I would expect that he was unaware of it.  There were rumors of Asharra being Jon's mother, and a Dayne family legend linking her and Ned that Edric Dayne relayed to Arya.  It is possible that she had intended to marry Ned, and committed suicide (if she actually did) once she found out he had married Catelyn.  She could have easily hidden the existence of any children from him once she found out he was already married.  The death of her brother would only have increased her despair.  Of course, she may be alive.  Definitely, one of the more mysterious characters in the backstory

[corbon]

Hey ya'll

Ive seen lots of post about Ashara Dayne and how she committed suicide after she gave birth to a stillborn girl but what if her daughter wasn't stillborn? What if her mother claimed her daughter as her own.

If Allyria was conceived at the Tourney of Harrenhal then she'd be born in 282AL. According to the Wiki she was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion in 294AL when she was about 12 years old.

What if Ashara fell for Brandon and slept with him?? Then he left her to marry is betrothed Catelyn Tully..  Maybe Ned had intended to marry her to restore her honor as his brother was already betrothed.

Ashara may have still killed her self but not because she had a still birth but because the suicide would be due to the guilt felt over Arthur death given that it was Ashara who told Ned how to find his sister which resulted in the fight at the Tower of Joy. She was just trying to help Ned find his sister and she ended up indirectly killing Arthur.

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf...but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench." Ned is the quiet wolf while Brandon is the wild wolf..

I might be way off but I thought id share the post anyways

 

Yes, its a known theory, especially amongst those that pay closer attention. Its more in the 'that idea would tie some things neatly together' bowl than the 'hey look at all the evidence for this' bowl though.

If Allyria is the daughter of a Stark, it is most likely Ned, not Brandon.  

Not if you look closely at all the evidence.

If so, I would expect that he was unaware of it.

Agreed. In either Stark case actually.

 There were rumors of Asharra being Jon's mother,

All of those rumours come from people not around either Ned or Ashara. And they all come long after Ned leaves Starfall with his bastard and Ashara supposedly commits suicide. So there is a very clear potential source for those rumours, and they are all related to Jon, not some secret child no one knows about too.

and a Dayne family legend linking her and Ned that Edric Dayne relayed to Arya.

We don't know that its a Dayne family legend. His source in fact is Allyria herself, who is clearly too young to have actual knowledge of these things, especially if they include her conception!
Edric's story also doesn't make good sense. Ned was in love with Ashara but banging Wylla to produce Jon? This would be the Ned we know, of precious honour, who couldn't be accused of taking his pleasures and was never-the-boy-he-was. And thats Robert talking about their youth together, not how Ned is now.
No, Edric's story sounds like a young girl (Allyria) telling romantic stories about stuff she doesn't know the facts of, stories that paint her mysterious suicide aunt (or, secretly, mother) in a a tragic/romantic light instead of a depressed/failure light.

 It is possible that she had intended to marry Ned, and committed suicide (if she actually did) once she found out he had married Catelyn.  She could have easily hidden the existence of any children from him once she found out he was already married.  The death of her brother would only have increased her despair.  Of course, she may be alive.  Definitely, one of the more mysterious characters in the backstory

Lots of things are possible... Much of what we learn of her comes from very dubious sources. Barristan for example, knew her well enough at court, but much of what he suggests to us is stuff about her from possibly years after he last saw her, when she was half a continent away. Largely he's guessing things, even to himself, and if you read the passage clearly he's not even sure about his own guesses at the end.

[Arrow of the Morning]

I don't believe Allyria is Ashara's bastard daughter. The dornish are more tolerant with bastards and treat them much better than north of the Red Mountains, but a bastard still a bastard. Dornish lords and ladies don't marry bastards, at maximum take one for paramour, and the reason for it is: marriages are, mainly, for political reasons. If a nobleman marries a noble lady from other house, their sons and daughters will count with the support from their mother's house, because they have blood ties. When they marry the suitors will be interested in the blood relationship as well, they want the children born. Passing a bastard as a legitimate child is selling a pig in a poke. Bastards doesn't have any actual political influence, even when both parents are noble, and if the suitor discovers he married a bastard it would ruin the family reputation. So passing a bastard as a legitimate child would not be something a lord would do.

Furthermore, we never heard any dornish house made something similar in the past.

[the Greenleif Stark]

Hey ya'll

Ive seen lots of post about Ashara Dayne and how she committed suicide after she gave birth to a stillborn girl but what if her daughter wasn't stillborn? What if her mother claimed her daughter as her own.

If Allyria was conceived at the Tourney of Harrenhal then she'd be born in 282AL. According to the Wiki she was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion in 294AL when she was about 12 years old.

What if Ashara fell for Brandon and slept with him?? Then he left her to marry is betrothed Catelyn Tully..  Maybe Ned had intended to marry her to restore her honor as his brother was already betrothed.

Ashara may have still killed her self but not because she had a still birth but because the suicide would be due to the guilt felt over Arthur death given that it was Ashara who told Ned how to find his sister which resulted in the fight at the Tower of Joy. She was just trying to help Ned find his sister and she ended up indirectly killing Arthur.

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf...but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench." Ned is the quiet wolf while Brandon is the wild wolf..

I might be way off but I thought id share the post anyways

 

First theory on Ashara that I've read that makes sense, good job

[redtree]

Edric Dayne was born in 287 AC, several years after the rebellion and Allyria is his aunt. I think she was born before the rebellion

[desire]

Sure why not.

[Ygrain]

Edric Dayne was born in 287 AC, several years after the rebellion and Allyria is his aunt. I think she was born before the rebellion

Well... if Ashara got pregnant at HH, then her baby was born before the Rebellion or shortly after its start.

Besides, you can be someone's aunt and be even younger than them.

[purple-eyes]

The biggest problem is that if she is her daughter, then she has less possibility to commit suicide or run away. 

I still think this is just a plot tool to send Edric to Beric. 

but of course even Edric is not very useful now, since there is no 5 year for him to grow into a good fighter. 

I do not think we will hear much about her in the future. 

 

 

[corbon]

I don't believe Allyria is Ashara's bastard daughter. The dornish are more tolerant with bastards and treat them much better than north of the Red Mountains, but a bastard still a bastard.

Indeed. She's certainly not officially Ashara's daughter, because that would make her Edric's cousin, not aunt.

Dornish lords and ladies don't marry bastards, at maximum take one for paramour, and the reason for it is: marriages are, mainly, for political reasons. If a nobleman marries a noble lady from other house, their sons and daughters will count with the support from their mother's house, because they have blood ties. When they marry the suitors will be interested in the blood relationship as well, they want the children born. Passing a bastard as a legitimate child is selling a pig in a poke. Bastards doesn't have any actual political influence, even when both parents are noble, and if the suitor discovers he married a bastard it would ruin the family reputation. So passing a bastard as a legitimate child would not be something a lord would do.

For all the reasons you quote, thats exactly why  they might just pass the bastard off as legitimate. Because it makes for a much better life  for the bastard, and keeps the family honour intact, and adds additional resources (marriageable daughters) to the family. So instead of Ashara having an illegitimate daughter, Ashara's mum 'has' a legitimate daughter. And Allyria ends up as Edric's aunt. Its not very hard to set up believably if you plan it early enough. And the stillborn child story fits then too - its part of Allyria's cover as legitimate.

And its not that much of a pig in a poke, really. The blood is still there, the political influence is still there, the relational influence is still there...

[joluoto2]

It could be. Her age might match.

[CJ McLannister]

It's possible.  The fact that she's betrothed but not yet married to Beric gives an age range that, at the very least, is significantly younger than Ashara.  

But we don't know enough about old Lord Dayne.  Maybe he remarried later in life so Allyria is a half-sibling.  There's also the issue that Ashara was rumored to be pregnant, so her mother (or step-mother) unexpectedly giving birth around the same time that Ashara miscarried and/or killed herself would probably throw up some flags.  Now... if both were pregnant and Lord Dayne's wife is the one who miscarried, a "simple" baby swap would be workable.  

But that still leaves the question of why.  What's the point?  Would a secret Stark-Dayne bastard that has barely been mentioned serve any purpose to the story?  

[lojzelote]

There is no evidence for it except that she could have been born around the time when Ashara had given birth and that she's much younger than her older siblings (the siblings we've heard of, that is; it is theoretically possible that Arthur and Ashara had another 10 brothers and sisters who haven't been mentioned so far and who bridged the gap between them and Allyria; after all, we've never even learned the name of their older brother, young Edric's deceased father).

Which by itself doesn't mean anything: Characters like Quentyn Martell or Meera Reed had also been born around that time, and huge age gaps between siblings are not unusual either - think the age difference between Rhaegar and Viserys, not to mention Rhaegar and Daenerys. Or Walder Frey, whose oldest son was sixty(!) years senior to the baby the latest Lady Frey is expecting. Or Anya Waynwood's offspring; one of her grandsons is already in his mid-twenties, while her youngest son is still a teen.

It's possible, but there's not much to build on.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

As I have said before I do believe that Allyria is the daughter of Ashara and a Stark. However I believe that the father is Ned and not Brandon.

The biggest problem is that if she is her daughter, then she has less possibility to commit suicide or run away. 

 Actually that is not true. Postpartum depression can cause the mother's suicide even if the baby is alive.

[Arrow of the Morning]

Indeed. She's certainly not officially Ashara's daughter, because that would make her Edric's cousin, not aunt.

For all the reasons you quote, thats exactly why  they might just pass the bastard off as legitimate. Because it makes for a much better life  for the bastard, and keeps the family honour intact, and adds additional resources (marriageable daughters) to the family. So instead of Ashara having an illegitimate daughter, Ashara's mum 'has' a legitimate daughter. And Allyria ends up as Edric's aunt. Its not very hard to set up believably if you plan it early enough. And the stillborn child story fits then too - its part of Allyria's cover as legitimate.

And its not that much of a pig in a poke, really. The blood is still there, the political influence is still there, the relational influence is still there...

Bastards are well treated in Dorne and poses a bastard as a legitimate member of the family would be much more dishonorable than a lady of the house having a bastard. If a young lady gets pregnant the house will be ashamed, but it will last just for some years and the prospects of marriage of the rest of the family will not be so endangered. On other hand, forging the legitimacy of a daughter would be much worst, if the others discover the fraud the name of the family would be drop on the mud, the houses which she was married/betrothed would be very, very angry (with all motives), if she was already married and with children, they would suffer the stigma of being the son of a bastard and would be very difficult to arrange any good marriage; other betrothals involving the cheating family could be break and doubts about the parentage would haunt the next generations of the family. That is a irresponsible gamble.

And the political influence would be weak, if Allyria is really Ashara's sister and their mother is, let's say, from House Manwoody (that is just a example), she would be first cousin of the heir of that house, but she is Ashara's daughter she is just a second cousin, a most tenuous relationship. Even with Lord and Lady Dayne loving her so much at point to poses her as their true daughter, the Lord of Kingsgrave would just see her as a distant kin (and a bastard). In the world of ASOIAF Blood ties matters a lot and mess with it would get you in really trouble.

[lojzelote]

Bastards are well treated in Dorne and poses a bastard as a legitimate member of the family would be much more dishonorable than a lady of the house having a bastard. If a young lady gets pregnant the house will be ashamed, but it will last just for some years and the prospects of marriage of the rest of the family will not be so endangered. On other hand, forging the legitimacy of a daughter would be much worst, if the others discover the fraud the name of the family would be drop on the mud, the houses which she was married/betrothed would be very, very angry (with all motives), if she was already married and with children, they would suffer the stigma of being the son of a bastard and would be very difficult to arrange any good marriage; other betrothals involving the cheating family could be break and doubts about the parentage would haunt the next generations of the family. That is a irresponsible gamble.

And the political influence would be weak, if Allyria is really Ashara's sister and their mother is, let's say, from House Manwoody (that is just a example), she would be first cousin of the heir of that house, but she is Ashara's daughter she is just a second cousin, a most tenuous relationship. Even with Lord and Lady Dayne loving her so much at point to poses her as their true daughter, the Lord of Kingsgrave would just see her as a distant kin (and a bastard). In the world of ASOIAF Blood ties matters a lot and mess with it would get you in really trouble.

Once properly covered up, I don't think there would any danger. How would someone discover it years after the fact? Why would they make it public knowledge? Why would anybody care to investigate the events surrounding Allyria's birth at all? Unless Allyria's (grand)parents would decide they want to disinherit her and this is the way to go about it, who could actually prove it to be true and not slander? I mean, sure, some less intelligent servants could talk to blackmail the family, but what it would get would be a lashing or a torn out tongue.

Lord of Kingsgrave would see her as a bastard only if he was aware she's a bastard. Anyway, I don't think he would care as long as it wasn't public knowledge and there wasn't any sort of official inquiry. Take Cersei's children; right know many people know or suspect they're really Jaime's get, including those supporting Tommen's reign, but officially everybody pretends to be convinced they are Robert's trueborn heirs, because it's convenient. Kevan certainly didn't do any "eww, icky incestous bastards, I'm never going near them again", although it's apparent he knows. Lord of Kingsgrave would only really care for Alyrria's true parentage if there was anything for him to gain from it or if he was considering killing her.

That said, I don't believe that Allyria is Ashara's daughter. Besides the 'evidence' for it being really flimsy, then - as has been said upthread - what would be the point?? Allyria's not even a terciary character, she has never appeared on page in the course of the five published books and she has been mentioned by another character, like, exactly once. A bit underwhelming for an alleged first cousin to the Stark children.

For sure, she couldn't be terribly important since the old gods didn't even bother to send her a direwolf... I mean there should be some hint that there's another Stark child in the world, no? Ghost could had been found together with an extra pup that Theon tried to claim, but it didn't care for him or some such.

[Arrow of the Morning]

Once properly covered up, I don't think there would any danger. How would someone discover it years after the fact? Why would they make it public knowledge? Why would anybody care to investigate the events surrounding Allyria's birth at all? Unless Allyria's (grand)parents would decide they want to disinherit her and this is the way to go about it, who could actually prove it to be true and not slander? I mean, sure, some less intelligent servants could talk to blackmail the family, but what it would get would be a lashing or a torn out tongue.

Lord of Kingsgrave would see her as a bastard only if he was aware she's a bastard. Anyway, I don't think he would care as long as it wasn't public knowledge and there wasn't any sort of official inquiry. Take Cersei's children; right know many people know or suspect they're really Jaime's get, including those supporting Tommen's reign, but officially everybody pretends to be convinced they are Robert's trueborn heirs, because it's convenient. Kevan certainly didn't do any "eww, icky incestous bastards, I'm never going near them again", although it's apparent he knows. Lord of Kingsgrave would only really care for Alyrria's true parentage if there was anything for him to gain from it or if he was considering killing her.

That said, I don't believe that Allyria is Ashara's daughter. Besides the 'evidence' for it being really flimsy, then - as has been said upthread - what would be the point?? Allyria's not even a terciary character, she has never appeared on page in the course of the five published books and she has been mentioned by another character, like, exactly once. A bit underwhelming for an alleged first cousin to the Stark children.

For sure, she couldn't be terribly important since the old gods didn't even bother to send her a direwolf... I mean there should be some hint that there's another Stark child in the world, no? Ghost could had been found together with an extra pup that Theon tried to claim, but it didn't care for him or some such.

I don't believe she is a Stark children either. I agree with you that if the sham remains undiscovered the Daynes would gain a lot and political matters could intervene, but still, it would be a very risk bet and the loses would be much bigger than the gains. For other lords discover was just matters of a hearsay or some information give by a servant of Starfall (a castle have no secrets).   

[Ygrain]

There is no evidence for it except that she could have been born around the time when Ashara had given birth and that she's much younger than her older siblings (the siblings we've heard of, that is; it is theoretically possible that Arthur and Ashara had another 10 brothers and sisters who haven't been mentioned so far and who bridged the gap between them and Allyria; after all, we've never even learned the name of their older brother, young Edric's deceased father).

Which by itself doesn't mean anything: Characters like Quentyn Martell or Meera Reed had also been born around that time, and huge age gaps between siblings are not unusual either - think the age difference between Rhaegar and Viserys, not to mention Rhaegar and Daenerys. Or Walder Frey, whose oldest son was sixty(!) years senior to the baby the latest Lady Frey is expecting. Or Anya Waynwood's offspring; one of her grandsons is already in his mid-twenties, while her youngest son is still a teen.

It's possible, but there's not much to build on.

 

There is also this peculiar quote by GRRM that Brandon died before he had sons, which allows for a daughter (or perhaps even posthumous son? I'd have to fish the exact quote).

[BalerionTheCat]

It's possible.  The fact that she's betrothed but not yet married to Beric gives an age range that, at the very least, is significantly younger than Ashara.  

But we don't know enough about old Lord Dayne.  Maybe he remarried later in life so Allyria is a half-sibling.  There's also the issue that Ashara was rumored to be pregnant, so her mother (or step-mother) unexpectedly giving birth around the same time that Ashara miscarried and/or killed herself would probably throw up some flags.  Now... if both were pregnant and Lord Dayne's wife is the one who miscarried, a "simple" baby swap would be workable.  

But that still leaves the question of why.  What's the point?  Would a secret Stark-Dayne bastard that has barely been mentioned serve any purpose to the story?  

Exactly. There should be a point.

To me, the speculations "Ned + Ashara = dead baby" are there to obfuscate the R+L=J theory. Who is Ned's bastard? Who are Jon's father and mother? You may still add to the confusion by involving Brandon and Howland Reed. But in the end, I don't see much purpose to Allyria, particularly as another Stark.