Guns, The 2nd Amendment and the Legitimacy of Their Necessity

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Or a latino middle aged male.

[BloodRider]

BR,

If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night do you expect me to grab my kids and "retreat" before being allowed to use force to attempt to expell these people from my home?

Unfortunately this is a straw man, Scot.  The Castle Doctrine has been extended to the point to where you can shoot in the back someone who is unarmed and fleeing from your neighbor's house.  If you can put the genie back in the bottle on that, I would be glad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy

But, yes, I would expect a smart - no a reasonable - person to retreat, or at the very least not engage.  It may not sit well, but it is the safer move.  I mean you may have well asked me "do you expect me to stop drop and roll when I am on fire?".  You instinct may be to run around and scream, but your instinct is not serving you well.  If they threaten you, or have weapons out, that's a different story.  Your risk calculation just changed.

Anyway, what I would do is hit the police button on my house alarm.

[BloodRider]

Or a latino middle aged male.

Only if they are shooting non-white males, Scot.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

BR,

I live in an 1800 square foot house with one easily accessable exit.  If the intruders are coming in there is no time or room for me to "retreat".

[TerraPrime]

The question is not about whether guns can be effective as a self-defense tool under some circumstances. They clearly are.

The question is whether owning guns makes you and your family safer, over all, given the likelihood of various calamities befalling your family, considering the type of neighborhood you live in.

For every scenario where people are fighting off  burglars with the use of a firearm, try to imagine them pointing shotguns and guns at them, as well, and see how much evening-out of power their guns can provide. At best, they are facing 2 v 2, and then it's matter of shooting it out while trying to not have their kids shot at in the crossfire. And what if there are 4 invaders? Will they and their spouses holding shotguns be an effective deterrent? Are people going to keep up with their training so they can be effective when they use the guns? There are so many factors here, many of which are simply assumed to work out, that these scenarios where guns save the day are pretty impractical.

Are there stories and events where having a gun did make a positive and significant impact? Of course. That doesn't mean that guns are right for most households.

By all means, people should exercise their freedom to own firearms and buy whatever type of guns they want. Just don't try to justify that as some sort of effective home protection.

[JonSnow4President]

The question is not about whether guns can be effective as a self-defense tool under some circumstances. They clearly are.

snip snip

It seems to be working out fine for everyone in South Park (still middle of new episode)

[peterbound]

Unfortunately this is a straw man, Scot.  The Castle Doctrine has been extended to the point to where you can shoot in the back someone who is unarmed and fleeing from your neighbor's house.  If you can put the genie back in the bottle on that, I would be glad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy

But, yes, I would expect a cowardly person to retreat, or at the very least not engage.  It may not sit well, but it is the safer move.  I mean you may have well asked me "do you expect me to stop drop and roll when I am on fire?".  You instinct may be to run around and scream, but your instinct is not serving you well.  If they threaten you, or have weapons out, that's a different story.  Your risk calculation just changed.

Anyway, what I would do is hit the police button on my house alarm.

Fixed that for you. 

The difference for some people is that defending yourself, is their 'stop, drop and roll'.  An action taken to mitigate the situation. 

[The Reckoner]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Obama's gun control policy would only prohibit the sales of firearms to people on the terror watchlist, the no-fly list, and people with a criminal record? I don't see why this would be bad policy.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I guess some concerns may be that this list could be arbitrarily or unreasonably expanded, and furthermore that for such a check to be comprehensively applied, it would have to close the gun show and private sale loophole.

 

[Greywolf2375]

I think banning AR-15s and anything like them would be a good choice, honestly. There's very little reason to have them. They're not good home defense weapons. They're not good hunting weapons. They're not good sport weapons. They're basically 'this is cool for cooking bacon on the muzzle'. 

But there's no reasonable way to ban them without banning all sorts of other reasonable firearms. 

This I'll disagree with you on - back in the 50's/early 60s when the AR was first produced that was true but the accuracy and dependability of them has improved drastically.  I know a number of hunters whose preference is the AR-15/SW MP-15/the like because of their accuracy.  With them, they use the standard 10 round magazine that they are sold with though.   

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I guess some concerns may be that this list could be arbitrarily or unreasonably expanded, and furthermore that for such a check to be comprehensively applied, it would have to close the gun show and private sale loophole.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.....

And here is a responsible gun owning family:

[Free Northman Reborn]

You say that like it's a bad thing.....

And here is a responsible gun owning family:

You post that pic like it's a bad thing...

Great gun safety being applied by that family. All firearms pointed in a safe direction. Trigger fingers clearly extended and well away from the triggers.

Very commendable and they clearly take their liberty and security seriously. Nothing wrong with that picture at all.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

You post that pic like it's a bad thing...

Great gun safety being applied by that family. All firearms pointed in a safe direction. Trigger fingers clearly extended and well away from the triggers.

Very commendable and they clearly take their liberty and security seriously. Nothing wrong with that picture at all.

And so appropriate for Christmas!

As Jesus said, "Blessed are the armed-to-the-teeth, for they shall inherit the Earth."

Or was it a little different than that?

[DanteGabriel]

You post that pic like it's a bad thing...

Great gun safety being applied by that family. All firearms pointed in a safe direction. Trigger fingers clearly extended and well away from the triggers.

Very commendable and they clearly take their liberty and security seriously. Nothing wrong with that picture at all.

Ah, this is the same Republican state legislator from Nevada who talked about wanting to go to Paris and shoot some refugees herself.

 

"What--are you kidding me? I’m about to fly to Paris and shoot ‘em in the head myself!" Fiore said she told Muth when asked why she didn't join the statement on Syrian refugees.

"I am not OK with Syrian refugees. I’m not OK with terrorists. I’m OK with putting them down, blacking them out, just put a piece of brass in their ocular cavity and end their miserable life. I'm good with that," she continued.

So much Stupid to unpack in one statement. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

You post that pic like it's a bad thing...

Great gun safety being applied by that family. All firearms pointed in a safe direction. Trigger fingers clearly extended and well away from the triggers.

Very commendable and they clearly take their liberty and security seriously. Nothing wrong with that picture at all.

The 5 year old has a gun. And you approve? Just wow.

And so appropriate for Christmas!

As Jesus said, "Blessed are the armed-to-the-teeth, for they shall inherit the Earth."

Or was it a little different than that?

In the Gospel of Matthew, an alternative for "an eye for an eye" is given by Jesus: 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. But after you turn the cheek, pistol whip them and knee cap em for good measure.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

The 5 year old has a gun. And you approve? Just wow.

Here in WV its very common to see 5 year olds hunting, at the shooting range, etc..  As long a they are being taught to be responsible, respect the weapon and such, then what is wrong with it? Its installing the habits of a responsible gun owner at a young age. If they are going to be around them, then teaching them these thing is necessary and is much better than shielding them from them and then they stumble along one in the household and know none of the requirements of safely handling one. As many of you who advocate gun-control, you know that confiscation will never happen, you all have said as much. So, why can't you at least applaud the families that teach their children the right way to handle and respect guns? 

[JonSnow4President]

Here in WV its very common to see 5 year olds hunting, at the shooting range, etc..  As long a they are being taught to be responsible, respect the weapon and such, then what is wrong with it? Its installing the habits of a responsible gun owner at a young age. If they are going to be around them, then teaching them these thing is necessary and is much better than shielding them from them and then they stumble along one in the household and know none of the requirements of safely handling one. As many of you who advocate gun-control, you know that confiscation will never happen, you all have said as much. So, why can't you at least applaud the families that teach their children the right way to handle and respect guns? 

I'm a gun owner.  I'm against a lot of what I view as unreasonable gun control policies.  I don't think guns are so much the problem as the people who are allowed to use them.

But there's a difference between respecting guns, using the tools/dangerous toys for what they are meant for (hunting, sport shooting if we're talking a 5 year old), and fetishizing them to the point you want your entire family holding them in a Christmas card.  That's not respect, that's showing off your (figuratively) shiny toys.  

By the way, the muzzle of the 5 year old's pistol is not in a safe place flush against his leg, and looks like it's actually pointed backwards in between the two women's legs.  The fetishization scares me more though.     

[Larry of the Lawn]

Here in WV its very common to see 5 year olds hunting, at the shooting range, etc..  As long a they are being taught to be responsible, respect the weapon and such, then what is wrong with it? Its installing the habits of a responsible gun owner at a young age. If they are going to be around them, then teaching them these thing is necessary and is much better than shielding them from them and then they stumble along one in the household and know none of the requirements of safely handling one. As many of you who advocate gun-control, you know that confiscation will never happen, you all have said as much. So, why can't you at least applaud the families that teach their children the right way to handle and respect guns? 

Because it seems stupid to applaud someone for doing the basic shit required?  I'm not going to applaud someone for vaccinating their kid or making sure the kid is adequately clothed in winter, either.  If you want your kid to be able to handle a gun you better fucking teach them gun safety.  You don't get an applause for that.  That's the bare minimum you have to do, I'm not applauding anyone for that.  

And as far as respecting guns goes, this is just fetishization.  That's not respect.  That Christmas card isn't doing responsible gun owners an favors.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I agree this is a totally over the top family photo, which is border line fanactism of guns. I just feel that if they're going to be around them, they may as well be trained to respect them and use them properly. I am not a gun owner, and dont want my children around them at all.

Larry, I phrased that wrong. I dont applaud them for their family photo, just that I believe they probably teach them to respect said guns.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I agree this is a totally over the top family photo, which is border line fanactism of guns. I just feel that if they're going to be around them, they may as well be trained to respect them and use them properly. I am not a gun owner, and dont want my children around them at all.

Larry, I phrased that wrong. I dont applaud them for their family photo, just that I believe they probably teach them to respect said guns.

No 5 year old should be holding a gun. And I say that as a guy that comes from a family that hunts. That's too young.