Winter Blues

See Alliser Thorne: The Dolores Umbridge of Westeros

31 posts in this topic

NOTE: IF YOU HAVE NOT READ HARRY POTTER, GOOGLE PROFESSOR UMBRIDGE 

 Alliser Throne threatened Jon Snow early in A Game of Thrones and again when they parted, after Jon sent him beyond the wall. "I'll come back for you, Bastard" or something of the sort. I don't think these are empty threats, and his hate for Jon is all too real.

What am I getting at?

Well, two things:

1--Is it possible that The Others can/will have a human agent working with them to get past the Wall and through Westeros, and

2--Could that person be Throne? Sirius Black said that the world was not split into good people be Death Eaters, and I believe the same for the WoIaF and the Others. In this regard, Throne would be like Dolores Umbridge--a non-Other helping them carry out their campaign out of pure spite. :dunno:

 

What at do you think?

 

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The Death Eaters weren't murderous ice zombies who sent the dead to kill the living.

Thorne is a dick, but I don't see any reason to believe he's in league with the Others.  He may have been involved in Jon's stabbing, but that's about the extent of his evil.  He doesn't want to hand the realms of men over to doom.

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If anyone at the Wall is Dolores Umbridge, it's Janos Slynt. (Or, if you go by the show, Olly.)

Anyway, I don't think the Others have a human agent working with them, namely because I don't see why they'd need one. Thorne is an asshole, but he's not colluding with the white walkers.

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I never hated any book character more than I did Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt.

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Thorne is a prick, but I don't think there's anything to suggest that he'd seriously consider teaming up with murder-crazed demons, or that the Others would even look for a human ally.  If anyone comes close to working on the same "side" as the Others, I think it'll be Euron.

Edited by Butterfreak

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If anyone at the Wall is Dolores Umbridge, it's Janos Slynt. (Or, if you go by the show, Olly.)

Anyway, I don't think the Others have a human agent working with them, namely because I don't see why they'd need one. Thorne is an asshole, but he's not colluding with the white walkers.

Yes ! Janos Slynt. Agree here ...I dont think the Others have a human agent. I love to hate Thorne ha. 

ps love your name, Im a huge fan of Frasier. I binge watch the entire series at least one a year. 

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Na Thorne is just another of the cardboard villains in Jon's story. 

cardboard? He's a pretty well rounded character. 

"Ser Alliser Thorne walked from the room so stiffly it looked as though he had a dagger up his butt." ~Game of Thrones page 215

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Aliser Thorne would be ruined if that was true. Let me analogize with Professor Snape: one of the reasons Snape is a great character is exactly that he's a huge jerk who nonetheless is not only not a villain, but actually a great guy. But still a creep. Aliser probably won't turn out a hero, but he does work as a character much better as just some random dick who manages to screw over Jon than some great villain.

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Aliser Thorne would be ruined if that was true. Let me analogize with Professor Snape: one of the reasons Snape is a great character is exactly that he's a huge jerk who nonetheless is not only not a villain, but actually a great guy. But still a creep. Aliser probably won't turn out a hero, but he does work as a character much better as just some random dick who manages to screw over Jon than some great villain.

I concur doctor with all of this.

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If anyone is Umbridge, it's Lysa Tully. Her undying devotion to LF is sorta similar to the Minister of Magic in HP. Umbridge wasn't working for the Death Eaters, she was an agent of a scheming government. Sadly Lysa never got raped by centaurs though. Uber nerd post done. :p

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The Death Eaters weren't murderous ice zombies who sent the dead to kill the living.

Thorne is a dick, but I don't see any reason to believe he's in league with the Others.  He may have been involved in Jon's stabbing, but that's about the extent of his evil.  He doesn't want to hand the realms of men over to doom.

Yes, I believe you're correct.  Thorne is a bitter man (for good reason) but he's not about to hand the realm of man to the white walkers.  Just because he was mean to Jon doesn't mean he is an agent of the Great Other.

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cardboard? He's a pretty well rounded character. 

"Ser Alliser Thorne walked from the room so stiffly it looked as though he had a dagger up his butt." ~Game of Thrones page 215

I don't see how that makes him well rounded?  Thorne and Slynt utterly appear to lack any depth in my opinion also.

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I don't see how that makes him well rounded?  Thorne and Slynt utterly appear to lack any depth in my opinion also.

it doesn't I was just being funny. I just don't agree with you guys I guess. 

 

BTW butt kicking for goodness! Love the name.

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Martin would lose points if Thorne filled the whole "disagreeable ally is really a secret villain" trope.

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Alliser Thorne is an honourable but bitter man. He sided with the Targaryen during the rebellion, and had to take the Black. He is resentful of those with less experience than him. But he is definitely loyal to the Watch and would not betray it, at least according to his judgement. I don't believe he would even participate in a betrayal like Bowen Marsh did.

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Thorne is not a villain. He's pretty much the kind of people Sirius Black actually meant to: people aren't good guys and villains. Thorne is just bitter because he's in a place I'm sure he didn't want to be, and he's given a job he didn't want to do while be in a terrible dangerous situation and having zero support from their Lords.

A lot is said about his "friendship" with Slynt, but as I see it, he probably felt that could be a chance to actually have a "strong" man in charge and maybe some help from the crown (Thorne had no way to know what kind of man Slynt was). When Slynt tried to attack Jon, he didn't and left him alone. After all, he acknowledges Jon is his leader and owes him loyalty. Also, he's smart enough to know that Stannis and his men wouldn't like a mutiny that endangers them and he would be in trouble.

Now, the fact he doesn't like Jon doesn't mean he's a villain (only a minor antagonist). Disliking Jon isn't a requirement for being a villain :lol: Also, remember that he hates pretty much everybody but only Jon actually tried to kill him. He had a very good reason: he saw Jon as a rebellious brat with entitlement. And Jon needed to be put in his place. Also, they had no reason to believe Jon's story of his time with the Wildlings: as far as they knew, Jon did kill Halfhand to escape, joined the Wildlings but then escaped them again because he was afraid. :dunno:

Now, Umbridge is a completely different case. the woman couldn't be mentally healthy while Throne is simply an asshole. She definitely resented her origin and wanted to prove herself better by exterminating the things she hated about herself. In that, she's like Voldemort. Umbdrige had no real seasons to hate halfbloods or magical creatures except her own racism, while Thorne knows for sure the wildlings are a real threat to the North and the realm because they were a real threat. 

 

8b949444a749cbbf706b4f8da51b2fef.jpg

Amazing :lol:

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I agree with the Snape analogy.  Alliser Thorne is not a nice guy, but he is also not a bad guy.  He is presented as an antagonist because he doesn't like our PoV character, Jon.  It's why I can't forgive Tyrion's treatment of Alliser in ACoK.

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It's why I can't forgive Tyrion's treatment of Alliser in ACoK.

Considering how Tyrion treated Pycelle, Tywin, Shae, that singer, etc.  It wasn't all that bad.  We just hadn't realized how nasty Tyrion could be yet.

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