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See Alliser Thorne: The Dolores Umbridge of Westeros


Winter Blues

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Nope, Umbridge is a total shit while Thorne's just a bully. 

If anyone is Umbridge, it's Lysa Tully. Her undying devotion to LF is sorta similar to the Minister of Magic in HP. Umbridge wasn't working for the Death Eaters, she was an agent of a scheming government. Sadly Lysa never got raped by centaurs though. Uber nerd post done. :P

Tbf though, Lysa had a horrifying past which on some level justifies (or accounts) for her action whereas Umbridge, on the other hand is outright evil.

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:bowdown:

 

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Nope, Umbridge is a total shit while Thorne's just a bully. 

Tbf though, Lysa had a horrifying past which on some level justifies (or accounts) for her action whereas Umbridge, on the other hand is outright evil.

 

 

:bowdown:

 

Lysa is a more fleshed out character than Umbridge, who does not have a backstory. Maybe she truly believed that Dumbledore was a liar who was causing chaos and panic. I don't think either character is very smart, thus they are easily manipulated by those they admire.

lol also Ramsey is totally a Bellatrix.
 

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Lysa is a more fleshed out character than Umbridge, who does not have a backstory. Maybe she truly believed that Dumbledore was a liar who was causing chaos and panic. I don't think either character is very smart, thus they are easily manipulated by those they admire.

lol also Ramsey is totally a Bellatrix.

Yes, and that makes Lysa's action justified on some level. As we know nothing about why Umbridge behaves like she does, it makes her a total villain.

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The Death Eaters weren't murderous ice zombies who sent the dead to kill the living.

Thorne is a dick, but I don't see any reason to believe he's in league with the Others.  He may have been involved in Jon's stabbing, but that's about the extent of his evil.  He doesn't want to hand the realms of men over to doom.

Na Thorne is just another of the cardboard villains in Jon's story. 

I wouldn't be so quick in judging Thorne. THe TV show simplifies things a lot, expecially last season. But we will see if Thorne had anything to do with Jon's stabbing in the books. If he didn't then his only faults are being a screaming training sarge, and not getting along with the young Jon Snow, the bastard son of that bastard whose support to the usurper costed Thorne his life as a noble, his castle, possibly his family's honor and existence.
Just for being true to his king, Thorne was punished with a life long, uncomfortable, fighting and dangerous prison sentence.
In his place I'd be bitter too, and I could have been prickier with Jon when his father - the object of my hate - finally had a reversal of fortune.
But if Thorne didn't have a part in Jon's stabbing, he actually always behaved accordding to his place, honorabily and respecting the rules of the Watch, and his own oath.
We will see if Thorne had a part on the stabbing, even if he was well away from the place and time it happened: he didn't even know of the letter and all.

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I don't understand why everyone hates Thorne so badly, he is honourable and loyal to the night's watch. I know he is mean to everyone's beloved POV character handsome Johny Snow, but his fucki*g job is to turn new green boys to men of the night's watch and toughen them up, ofcourse he has to be mean, look at today armies and drill sergeants - they scream at you and make you to do push-ups until you toughen up and in comparison to them Thorne is kinda sweet darling.

Also lord Snow kinda behaves like a prick during his trainings at Castle Black.

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I don't understand why everyone hates Thorne so badly, he is honourable and loyal to the night's watch. I know he is mean to everyone's beloved POV character handsome Johny Snow, but his fucki*g job is to turn new green boys to men of the night's watch and toughen them up, ofcourse he has to be mean, look at today armies and drill sergeants - they scream at you and make you to do push-ups until you toughen up and in comparison to them Thorne is kinda sweet darling.

Also lord Snow kinda behaves like a prick during his trainings at Castle Black.

I agree with the drill sergeant comparison.  His job is to make the weak ones quit before they say the words and are stuck there for life.  

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I don't understand why everyone hates Thorne so badly, he is honourable and loyal to the night's watch. I know he is mean to everyone's beloved POV character handsome Johny Snow, but his fucki*g job is to turn new green boys to men of the night's watch and toughen them up, ofcourse he has to be mean, look at today armies and drill sergeants - they scream at you and make you to do push-ups until you toughen up and in comparison to them Thorne is kinda sweet darling.

Also lord Snow kinda behaves like a prick during his trainings at Castle Black.

Because he sucks at his job.

1. he's supposed to teach recruits how to fight - Jon notices that he didn't even teach Pyp how to properly hold a sword

2. he's supposed to instill a sense of brotherhood and unity in recruits - instead he encourages them to bully one another

3. while he may be harsh, he's supposed to have "we're on a same team and I want you to learn" attitude. Instead he revels in wantonly bullying his recruits.

4. he's supposed to have respect and authority based on his experience and his status as a senior member - due to his wanton cruelty, Jon easily usurps his authority.

Not to mention how he comes off as quite hypocritical - while he gives his recruits humiliating nicknames, he's uncomfortable with being object of a joke himself. While he cheerfully sends Jon on a suicide mission, he's unhappy going out on a ranging (as  part of a team of experienced ranger, nonetheless) because it may be dangerous. All in all, while he's no villain, Alliser is quite a nasty person with whom I'd wouldn't want to associate with any more than strictly necessary.

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I agree with the drill sergeant comparison.  His job is to make the weak ones quit before they say the words and are stuck there for life.  

Which is a totally wrong mindset. Night's Watch constantly whines how they're undermanned and poor - and yet you think they can afford to reject someone because he may be a poor fighter?  Or maybe they should be grateful that they got a new member and find some useful job for him - he may suck at fighting, but he can still work the fields, work in accounting, repair the Wall etc.

“He told me that a maester’s collar is made of chain to remind him that he is sworn to serve,” Jon said, remembering. “I asked why each link was a different metal. A silver chain would look much finer with his grey robes, I said. Maester Luwin laughed. A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft. And he said there were other meanings as well. The collar is supposed to remind a maester of the realm he serves, isn’t that so? Lords are gold and knights steel, but two links can’t make a chain. You also need silver and iron and lead, tin and copper and bronze and all the rest, and those are farmers and smiths and merchants and the like. A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people.”

Maester Aemon smiled. “And so?”

“The Night’s Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn’t make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won’t either. You can’t hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn’t mean tin is useless. Why shouldn’t Sam be a steward?”

And moreover, what about ones who don't really have the option to opt out - like Sam or Daeron?

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Actually, I think Thorne is one of the villains of the story.. he's just not a cardboard villain. If his back story and motivations are ever totally revealed (and I assume they will be), I suspect we could understand him, even though his attitudes and actions would still be destructive, rather than constructive. Just because you can understand someone, that doesn't mean their opinions are right or their actions justified.

Even though Tywin was no doubt completely unreasonable in the way he sent Thorne and Rykker to the wall, offering no other option but death - once at the wall, the two men display very different qualities. Rykker makes the most of his situation. He becomes a capable ranger, seems even tempered, amiable, and generally respected. He bears no ill will to Tyrion for Tywin's actions. .. In ADWD, when Jon is mentally lamenting that the Watch had lost too many good men, Jaremy Rykker's name is one that springs to mind.

Others here have illustrated Thorne's disregard for his men (I'd even suggest contempt), and how he has not been a good drill sargeant .. He reveals this himself when he tells Jon.. 
I have squandered a third of my life trying to teach the rudiments of swordplay to churls, muttonheads, and knaves.

... He's been teaching the rudiments (and only the rudiments) .. not because the recruits are incapable of learning more , and not because he couldn't teach them more.. but because he either simply doesn't care to - or at worst, he wants them to be ill-prepared. His time at the Wall could have been productive for the NW, and given him a sense of accomplishment, by making sure his recruits received the best training he could give. He considers the past third of his life to be wasted, ill-spent .. but it was within his power to make it otherwise, if he chose.

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Lysa is a more fleshed out character than Umbridge, who does not have a backstory. Maybe she truly believed that Dumbledore was a liar who was causing chaos and panic. I don't think either character is very smart, thus they are easily manipulated by those they admire.


 

Umbridge has a backstory that was later shared in Pottermore.

Without spoiling too much, she has always been a bitch.

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