Most second powerful house in each kingdom

[AerionBrightflameII]

There were hundreds of Kings in Dorne, Petty Kings but still kings. The Daynes, The Fowlers and the Yronwoods were all kings.

It was only after Nymeria's War when The Title Prince was used inplace of King after the Rhoynish fashion. 

[Nittanian]

It makes no sense though because Dorne wasn't ruled by a king.

TWOIAF, The North:

For centuries it has been the custom to speak of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This familiar usage derives from the seven great kingdoms that held sway over most of Westeros below the Wall during years immediately preceding Aegon's Conquest. Yet even then, the term was far from exact, for one of those "kingdoms" was ruled by a princess rather than a king (Dorne), and Aegon Targaryen's own "kingdom" of Dragonstone was never included in the count.

Nonetheless, the term endures. Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually divided into a hundred independent states, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision.

[The Three Whores]

Thank you Nittanian!

[purple-eyes]

Honestly Dorne is technically a kingdom. They just chose a different title for ruler. 

Martell can surely call themselves king if they wants. 

They defeated six kings and united Dorne. 

This is like you call somebody president for one company, but chancellor for another one. 

[Dofs]

 

In the West the 2. and 3. most powerfull houses have been annihilated, so I'd say Crakehall, Marbrand, Lefford or Farman.

 

The Tarbecks weren't a powerful House. They rose to power for a short period of time during Tytos' rule by stealing money from Tytos and by being supported by Reynes but even then I don't think they were even close to one of the strongest Houses in Westerlands.

[Lord Varys]

The Westerlands and the Stormlands are clearly the most difficult there. I'd not be surprised if neither has a 'second most powerful house' just as the North might not have such a house (the Manderlys, Boltons, Karstarks, Dustins) could, perhaps, all be able to field roughly the same amount of men depending how large the lands are they control, and how many levies their land can actually feed. And we don't know that, simple as that.

White Harbor makes it very likely that the Manderlys are the most powerful simply because they are the richest and because they control the only city in the North (which gives them a big start on the number of mouths they can feed).

In the West we have even less knowledge as to how much land the various lesser houses control. We don't even know how strong the Reynes were in that regard, for instance, but we do know that Lannisport is controlled directly by the Lannisters (via the Lannisters of Lannisport, but still) and effectively seems to make the Lannisters the most powerful great house in the entire realm in relation their peers who all do not directly control a city (save the royal house, of course, which controls KL).

In light of the fact that there are many hills/mountains in the West I'm not sure how much fertile land the average lord can control in light of the number of houses that exist there, so I'd not be surprised if the Lannisters would not be very, very powerful ruling house, and all of the lesser houses play in an entirely secondary league. Remember, despite Tytos' devastating misrule, there was no house in the West that actually tried to usurp the position of Casterly Rock or openly attack the Lannisters up until Tywin provoked them in doing so (and even the Reynes and Tarbecks only dared to proclaim their independence, they never proclaimed themselves the new rulers of the West).

I'm also not sure whether the Leffords actually control the or all the goldmines at the Golden Tooth. The appendix claims the gold of the Golden Tooth is part of the vast Lannister wealth, so Casterly Rock may have maintain mines there which dig up gold directly for the Lannisters (although CR could also just heavily tax the Leffords for the privilege of maintaining and overseeing the Golden Tooth mines).

Of the other houses, one should not forget the Farmans of Fair Isle. Supposedly its lord contemplated rebelling against Tywin but was dissuaded by the visit of that bard. Still, you have to have stones and, more importantly, the necessary strength and coin to even contemplate such an action. The Farmans have a very long history of trouble with the Ironborn, and should subsequently have strong warriors as well a powerful fleet and men to man the ships. George often makes island houses particularly strong (the Redwynes, for instance, and, of course, all the Ironborn).

In the Stormlands, the most powerful lords most likely are in the Dornish Marches, but whether any of them is stronger than the other isn't clear. But there are other powerful houses as well. The Conningtons prior to the Rebellion, for one. Whether any of them is particularly powerful is unclear. The Marcher Lords have powerful castles, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can field many men considering the relative weakness of the Stormlands in general. We really don't know where the Stormlanders live. The Rainwood is scarcely populated, the Marches possibly as well, and the Kingswood, too.

[asimetrikal]

I hope no one's said this already, but since the Red Wedding the Boltons are the most powerful house. Manderly would be number 2.

[mediterraneo]

 

All of this I agree with except one thing. While yes the Riverlands was part of the Stormland Kingdom at one point in history, it is not considered part of it when someone refers to the "Seven Kingdoms". When the term "Seven Kingdoms" is used, it refers the kingdoms as they were when Aegon the Conqueror arrived on the shores of Westeros and began his conquest. At that time, the Riverlands were part of the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers. The Kingdom of the Storm only extended as far north as the Crownlands.

Yes the Riverlands has always been separate from the Iron Islands since Aegon's conquest, yet that doesn't change that in reference to the "Seven Kingdoms" it is still part of the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, along with the Iron Islands. Two regions, one kingdom.

It matters very little now, as it's just a historical term for it. For example, I live in the southern USA and in some places it isn't that uncommon to hear people refer to us still as the "Confederacy". It's just a historical term sometimes used with very little meaning aside from tradition.

So to restate, the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers included both the regions of the Riverlands and the Iron Islands in a historical sense.

I feel that a big part of our incapacity of getting a clear understanding here is due to the different possible meanings of the word "Kingdom" in this westerosi context.

We must clarify if "Kingdom" here is a meaningful term indicating something existing or just a word we use for make the number of something "feel right" on the basis of the number of the gods being seven.
I mean, there is always a definition of what a "hill" is to claim that  a city is built on seven hills, like Rome. But then those are not a meaningful definition what a hill is, just a meaning to the end of calling your city the capital of an empire.

1. If a kingdom is an existing political entity, organized around a unified system of feudal relationship, that unify a territory under a Warden responding just to the "imperial" king in King's Landing, or under a single indipendent king, that's one definition.
2. If a kingdom is the territory corresponding to historically determined soveregn political entity, existing in a defined moment of time, present or past, and led by a king or queen, that's another definition.
3. If a kingdom is the territory that at any one point in time have been associated to a political entity throughout the course of the political entity's existance, that's a definitin.
4. If you insist of calling a kingdom an administrative entity, as organized by the Conqueror at the moment of the Conquest, that's another definition.

Are other definitions both possible in Westeros and meaningful to this discussion? Please propose them. Analyzing these ones, I would say (or "I claim",  to sound even more boring) that:

1. If a kingdom is an existing organization in the Targaryen-Baratheon kingdom, the Iron Islands are one composed just of islands, the Stormlands are a seond that is composed of its original peninsula plus the Dornish Marches, the Riverlands are a kingdom of their own around the Trident's waterbasin. Their exact borders correspond - let's say during Robert's life, that is easier - to the feudal lands, resectively, of the vassals of the Houses Greyjoy, Baratheon-Storm's End, Tully.
2. If a kingdom is a historically determined sovereign political entity led by a monarch in the present or in the past, it is actually immpossible to make a univocal map assigning each and every point of Westeros's map to one and only one kingdom. There is inevitabily an evolution in time of the maps. Take a look here for a european example of that, that actually includes some necessary semplification, or graphical choices that could be debated. Westeros's history is actually eight times longer than that video. In this case you could identify different maps for the traditional Iron Islands's map indicating seven different kingdoms, with two kings each, a second map indicatine them as belonging to one kingdom, a different one indicating the Shield Islands, some piece of the North and Bear Island, a different one for the Hoare big kingdom in land would appear at some point, but just for very few years, a blink in a similar video of Westerosi history. Alongside that you would have numerous, conflicting, everchanging different kingdoms in the Riverlands, from the time of the 100 kingdoms, to the glory of House Mudd, to the reign of House Justman, to the destruction of the Riverlands as a sovereign kingdom by House Durrendon. Then you would have differrent maps, including or not part or the whole of the Stepstones, of the Dornish Marches, of what we today call the Crownlands and the RIverlands in the Storm Kingdom's maps over time.
3. If a kingdom is the sum of all of the territories associated to some political entoty during its existence, then the three maps of the Iron islands, of the Riverlands and of the Stormalnds would all include the territory of the Trident's basin, as they occupied it at some time.
4. If you really insist on calling "kingdom" the existing polities at the time of the Conquest, which is clearly indicated (by the calendar) as the moment of Aegon's crowning in Oldtown, then we have two choices. In that moment only three polities existed in Westeros: Dorne's princedom was one, whatever existed beyond the Wall was the second and the third polity would include all of Aegon's conquested lands. Three kingdoms, not seven. If we counted "kingdom" in an administrative sense iniside the "imperial" Realm of which Aegon proclaimed himself "protector of", then "at the Conquest" Aegon had already proclaimed House Tully as Warden of the Riverlands. He actually had Wardens in the Stormlands (Baratheon), in the Vale (Arryn), in the Reach (Tyrell already), in the West (Lannister), in the North (Stark), on the Iron Islands (Greyjoy) and in the Riverlands (Tully). How many are them? Seven.
   He never called his direct vassals in Dragonstone, in Duskendale, on Massey's Hook or elsewhere "Wardens", and they didn't have a comparable network of feudal relationships and control fo the territory, even if the families there (Velaryons most of all) where arguabily more powerful than some of the recently defeated Great Houses.

What do all of these definitions have in common?
Very few things. Maybe just one. In each and every possible meaning of "kingdom" the Riverlands and the Iron Islands count as different and separated kingdoms.

When talking about the "Seven" kingdoms, and considering in-world sources about that, we should remember that to in-world sources the number seven has strong cultural meanings, predating the Conquest and even predating the division of the continent in a number of kingdoms you could count with two hands and not on twenty.
Out-world, the kingdoms numbering seven predates the time in which Dorne, the Iron Islands and eaven the Reach as a kingdom where invented and brought into the story.
It is at the start of the very first book, standing around the very first scene Martin envisioned, the one of the wolf puppies.
When he wrote it, Martin didn't know if the Iron Islands would have needed to be counted as a kingdom or not, or if there was some difference in rank between the kingdom of the Iron Islands and the one of the Three Sisters.
And I really think he likes the number of kindoms, in world, to have a cultural sense and not a precise, mathematical count sense.
I think he wanted it to be clear to the readers, too.
I do like that for myself.

Cheers.

[Nittanian]

TWOIAF, The North:

For centuries it has been the custom to speak of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This familiar usage derives from the seven great kingdoms that held sway over most of Westeros below the Wall during years immediately preceding Aegon's Conquest. Yet even then, the term was far from exact ... [this indicates "Seven Kingdoms" was used before the Targaryen invasion]

TWOIAF: The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Three days later, in the Starry Sept, His High Holiness himself anointed Aegon with the seven oils, placed a crown upon his head, and proclaimed him Aegon of House Targaryen, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.

AGOT Tyrion II

His own remote ancestor, King Loren of the Rock, had tried to stand against the fire when he joined with King Mern of the Reach to oppose the Targaryen conquest. That was close on three hundred years ago, when the Seven Kingdoms were kingdoms, and not mere provinces of a greater realm.

 

TWOIAF: The Targaryen Kings: Aegon I

In these progresses, the king was accompanied not only by his courtiers but by maesters and septons as well. Six maesters were often in his company to advise him upon the local laws and traditions of the former realms, so that he might rule in judgment at the courts he held. Rather than attempting to unify the realm under one set of laws, he respected the differing customs of each region and sought to judge as their past kings might have. (It would be left for a later king to bring the laws of the realm into accord.)

"Seven Kingdoms" is the common name for the realm ruled by the Iron Throne, since there were seven great realms (plus the weaker Dragonstone) when Aegon began his conquest. Aegon claimed dominion over all of them, even though Dorne remained independent for generations. Robert Baratheon is not the king of seven separate kingdoms, but is instead the king of one realm (the Seven Kingdoms) which consists of nine regions/provinces.

[The Three Whores]

Thank you again Nittanian. It will be hard for anyone to argue against all those sources you were nice enough to provide. I think that Tyrion quote really says it best.

[mmenolas]

we do know that Lannisport is controlled directly by the Lannisters (via the Lannisters of Lannisport, but still) and effectively seems to make the Lannisters the most powerful great house in the entire realm in relation their peers who all do not directly control a city (save the royal house, of course, which controls KL).

I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the Lannisters of Lannisport are a distinct house from the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. Much as House Fossoway of New Barrel is distinct from House Fossoway of Cider Hall.  Or the distinction between the 4 House Flints.  In the case of the Lannisport Lannisters, they are beneath the Casterly Rock Lannisters in the feudal hierarchy, so in a way the Casterly Rock Lannisters do have some dominion over Lannisport, but that's no different than the Stark/Bolton dominion over White Harbor through their vassal, House Manderly.

[Lord Varys]

Oh, the Lannisters of Lannisport are a different branch, but we don't know whether they actually rule the city in their own right. The Lords of Casterly Rock are also styled 'Shield of Lannisport' suggesting that they have some sort of direct control/jurisdiction over the city.

The Lannisters of Lannisport could just be a relatively insignificant cadet branch comparable to the Gulltown Arryns - who live at Gulltown and most likely have some influence there but who do not exactly run things there (the Graftons rule Gulltown).

[asimetrikal]

Aegon claimed dominion over all of them, even though Dorne remained independent for generations. Robert Baratheon is not the king of seven separate kingdoms, but is instead the king of one realm (the Seven Kingdoms) which consists of nine regions/provinces.

I have bolded this sentence because I'm not sure how accurate that is, especially from a legal point of view.

The Iron Throne claims dominion over Westeros south of the Wall, the Iron Islands and some islands in the Stepstones, I'm sure. Within that area are a number of kingdoms that the king who sits the throne rules, *as ruler of each kingdom*, through the vassalage of a Great House.

There are four reasons why we should question the claim that the Seven Kingdoms are, legally, one unitary polity rather than a roughly continental collection of nations which recognize the suzerainty of the Iron Throne (technically, the Crownlands, more on that in a bit).

Item 1: The historical fact that Aegon conquered the *Seven Kingdoms* individually. Aegon may have been the first king of the (six) Seven Kingdoms but the legal framework for a feudal state apparatus had existed for centuries. The Westerosi already knew kings and, in fact, Aegon effectively adopted the political system of the lands he conquered, rather than bringing in a Valyrian-style oligarchy. Remember, there were no kings in Old Valyria.

The Westerosi knew kingship and had existed as separate kingdoms before the Conquest. Aegon either killed or subdued the lords who resisted him, but bear in mind *he did this serially* and couldn't even finish the job because Dorne remained free. Aegon flew in on his dragons and found a land of multiple kingdoms, and when he was finished he was king of those kingdoms *individually*.

Item 2: The existence of the Crownlands and the absence of some 'national' bodies that would suggest cross-kingdom Iegal and political superstructure.

The Crownlands didn't exist, as a single, legal entity until their surrendur to Visenya and Rhaenys during the conquest. The lords of the Crownlands are 'special' in that they owe fealty directly to the Iron Throne, whereas outside the Crownlands only seven other Houses can say this (the Great Houses of each Kingdom). This means there are over 20 lords in this region that are, legally and socially, on the same footing as the seven great lords of the disparate kingdoms.

Further, if the Seven Kingdoms are indeed a single legal entity (instead of a collective of distinct kingdoms) we would expect to find some institutions, bodies and organizations reflecting a cross-Kingdom membership. However, the Seven Kingdoms do not have a national army, a standardized education system, a police force with Kingdoms-wide jurisdiction, or a central border and customs agency. The Night's Watch isn't an example of a national body indicating political or legal unity because it existed for thousands of years *before* the Conquest. Similarly, the Citadel cannot be held up as evidencing a national education policy because it also existed before Aegon came.

In essence, the CrownlKingdoma the only *unitary* political entity to be created as a result of the Conquest. The other kingdoms got a new king (a suzerain) who invested, in each Kingdom, the Lord of a Great House with the right to rule in his name. In other words, the only part of the Seven Kingdoms where allotal land rights rest with lord of those lands is the CrowWesterosAll other lords, major and minor, derive their authority from the king's appointment.

Lastly, to reiterate, the Seven Kingdoms share (usually) a king in person. But they do not share kings in office. Currently Tommen Baratheon sits the Iron Throne, which of course makes him King of the Crownlands, but, for example, also King in the Reach and King of the Stormlands. He is not 'the king' as a single conceptual office anywhere in Westeros. He is king, distinctly, of these three regions.

Item 3: The Greyjoy Rebellions, the Enthronement of Robb Stark, and the Issue of Dorne.

The War of Conquest didn't extend to Dorne, and the fact that it only joined the broader political conglomerate in marriage lends weight to the idea that distinct political entities comprise the Seven Kingdoms, rather than a singular polity. Dorne retains its own legalities regarding inheritance, suggesting the King of Dorne, singly, allows this custom to continue.

The Greyjoy Rebellions and the Enthronement of Robb Stark give us further evidence that each of the traditional Kingdoms considers itself separate and distinct from the other areas of Westeros. Balon Greyjoy claims the kingship of the Iron Islands and proceeds to launch reavers. He doesn't consider the lands of the west coast to be legally and politically connected to his own. Similarly, Robb Stark and the northern lords do not consult the lords of the other kingdoms when they declare Independence. They simply depose the person holding the office (Joffrey Baratheon) and confer it upon Robb. No need to involve anyone else, because they're distinct political realities.

Item 4: The titles of the King on the Iron Throne.

As part of his titulary, whoever sits the Iron Throne is called 'Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm'. Notice that he is lord (ruler) of the kingdomS (in plural) but protector of the realm (in the singular). If 'the Realm' is thought of as the whole of Westeros south of the Wall, that is to say a single conceptual unit, it has a protector, but no lord or king. However, the seven kingdoms, as distinct and different entities, DO have a lord.

Cheers!

[The Three Whores]

Are you saying that the Seven Kingdoms are still separate Kingdoms? Please read the previous comments, specifically Nittian's, who provides plenty of references and quotes.

For a modern comparison to how the present Seven Kingdoms are current ruled, as of the first book. Bobby B is the only King of one Kingdom titled as the Seven Kingdoms. Bobby B is the President and the Lord Paramounts are his governors. Each of the 9 regions is similar to a state in the USA and they are no longer Kingdoms of their own. Just because they are beholden to the president doesn't prevent them from having any separate laws of their own.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Oh, the Lannisters of Lannisport are a different branch, but we don't know whether they actually rule the city in their own right. The Lords of Casterly Rock are also styled 'Shield of Lannisport' suggesting that they have some sort of direct control/jurisdiction over the city.

The Lannisters of Lannisport could just be a relatively insignificant cadet branch comparable to the Gulltown Arryns - who live at Gulltown and most likely have some influence there but who do not exactly run things there (the Graftons rule Gulltown).

I'm not sure how powerful they are but they seem to be more of an actual House than the Arryn cousins living (not ruling) in Gulltown.

If memory serves me right the bride of Jasons oldest son Damon was a Lannisport Lannister. I would have thought a better match would have been made in those circumstances.

[Nittanian]

Are there examples from the text that GRRM still considers them separate kingdoms instead of regions/provinces? If "Seven Kingdoms" refers to seven modern kingdoms, which are they?

AGOT Catelyn XI

And the river lords were rising too, Blackwood and Bracken and Mallister, houses who had never been ruled from Winterfell, yet Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old words that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one ... yet now were heard again, ringing from the timbers of her father's hall:

"The King in the North!"

If the north is still a separate kingdom, shouldn't Jaehaerys or Robert have been regarded as "King in the North" while visiting Winterfell?

In AGOT Eddard I, Robert tells Ned, "I am planning to make you run the kingdom and fight the wars while I eat and drink and wench myself into an early grave." Robert considers the Seven Kingdoms to be one kingdom. Tyrion considers them "mere provinces of a greater realm".

AGOT Jon VIII

In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were seven kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war.

 

Yandel

Thus were the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros hammered into one great realm, by the will of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters.

 

ASOS Davos IV

"This talk of Seven Kingdoms is a folly. Aegon saw that three hundred years ago when he stood where we are standing. They painted this table at his command. Rivers and bays they painted, hills and mountains, castles and cities and market towns, lakes and swamps and forest ... but no borders. It is all one. One realm, for one king to rule alone."

The High Septon proclaimed him "King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men", which Aegon's successors have since used. Daenerys has a string of titles, including "Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men", but Missandei does not mention titles like "Queen of the Rock" or "Queen of the Reach".

[Lord Varys]

Nope, we don't know from what branch Ella Lannister is. Besides, there are Lannister cousins from the Casterly Rock branch that the family tree doesn't cover, most notably the Lady Margot Lannister who is married to Lord Titus Peake (who I think would have to be a descendant of a brother of the Grey Lion considering that Tybolt and Gerold don't seem to have any brothers).

Myrcella also seems to be rather dismissive of her distant Lannisport kin.

I'm not saying those Lannisters are rich and stuff, I'm just not inclined to believe that they actually rule Lannisport in their own right. If so, the head of that house should be listed as a powerful lord in his own right in the appendices of the books.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Nope, we don't know from what branch Ella Lannister is. Besides, there are Lannister cousins from the Casterly Rock branch that the family tree doesn't cover, most notably the Lady Margot Lannister who is married to Lord Titus Peake (who I think would have to be a descendant of a brother of the Grey Lion considering that Tybolt and Gerold don't seem to have any brothers).

Myrcella also seems to be rather dismissive of her distant Lannisport kin.

I'm not saying those Lannisters are rich and stuff, I'm just not inclined to believe that they actually rule Lannisport in their own right. If so, the head of that house should be listed as a powerful lord in his own right in the appendices of the books.

If I remember correctly Ran mentioned it on the forum in a thread about Staffords inheritance.

Never mind found it;

 

 

(The only other way to read it is that Jason somehow disinherited his son Damon (and so Damon's offspring) prior to his death, but that seems very unlikely given Damon's youth and the fact that Damon had a pretty good marriage to a Lannister of Lannisport.)

Now considering Damon was Staffords oldest, his son married a Crakehall and his granddaughter married Lord Jast we can presume that the Lannisport Lannisters are of much more than glorified cousins like the Gulltown Arryns.

 

edit: is it not more likely that the Margot Lannister is one of Staffords two unnamed sisters?

[Dofs]

Regarding the Lannisters of Lannisport, this is a quote from the Worldbook:

But such tales aside, the histories suggest that the early Lannisters were fertile as well as fair, for many names began to appear in the chronicles, and within a few generations Lann's descendants had grown so numerous that even Casterly Rock could not contain all of them. Rather than tunnel out new passages in the stone, some sons and daughters from lesser branches of the house left to make their homes in a village a scant mile away. The land was fertile, the sea teemed with fish, and the site they had chosen had an excellent natural harbor. Soon enough the village grew into a town, then a city: Lannisport.

By the time the Andals came, Lannisport had become the second biggest city in Westeros. Only Oldtown was larger and richer, and trading ships from every corner of the world were sailing up the western coasts to call upon the golden city on the Sunset Sea. Gold had made House Lannister rich; trade made it even richer. The Lannisters of Lannisport prospered, built great walls around their city to defend it from those (chiefly ironborn) who sought to steal their wealth, and soon became kings.

This, imo, suggests that the Lannisters of Lannisport do indeed rule the city and are a rich and powerful House on their own in addition to being a cadet branch to Casterly Rock Lannisters. 

[asimetrikal]

Are you saying that the Seven Kingdoms are still separate Kingdoms? Please read the previous comments, specifically Nittian's, who provides plenty of references and quotes.

For a modern comparison to how the present Seven Kingdoms are current ruled, as of the first book. Bobby B is the only King of one Kingdom titled as the Seven Kingdoms. Bobby B is the President and the Lord Paramounts are his governors. Each of the 9 regions is similar to a state in the USA and they are no longer Kingdoms of their own. Just because they are beholden to the president doesn't prevent them from having any separate laws of their own.

I am arguing (in the academic sense) that the legal-political landscape of the country that Aegon I ruled after the Conquest and that continued (with development) for the next 300 years to the time of the novels is in many ways not best understood as unitary, but is more accurately characterized by multi-state suzerainty. This means that one powerful state (in effect the Crownlands) exercises authority over and controls the foreign policy of a weaker state (in effect the other eight regions of Westeros). I am trying to lay out a conceptual framework that most fruitfully conveys this idea.

If I can try to boil it down: 'the Realm' is a geopolitical term denoting all of Westeros south of the Wall, the 'Seven Kingdoms' is a historical-cultural title actually denoting nine legally and conceptually distinct entities (which are, of course, united culturally, geographically, economically, linguistically, religiously and demographically). At Aegon's invasion, there were seven kingdoms, sovereign and separate, but because he and his sisters created the Crownlands and divided the Kingdom of Islands and Rivers into the Iron Isthere and the Riverlands nine states actually resulted. Each state's legal essence is distinct, and since Aegon (at least until the Dance of the Dragons) the king who sits the Iron Throne is the king of these states, as distinct legal entities. The Great House of each state is the ancestral house of whichever lord Aegon invested with royal authority at the time of the Conquest. When Aegon conquered the North, the last Stark king knelt and transferred royal authority which was then held in the Iron Throne. When a new king is crowned and sits the IT, he is the new King in the North because its distinct legal 'self' was transferred there when Aegon first assumed that title.

Put another way: the Seven Kingdoms (the eight regions of Westeros minus the Crownlands) do not derive legitimacy from the Iron Throne, rather the Iron Throne is imbued with royal authority because of the transfer of the distinct, sovereign royal mandates taken or assumed by Aegon during the War of Conquest.

Answer this question for me, if you don't mind:

•In your opinion, when the northern lords bent the knee and proclaimed Robb Stark their new king, were they creating an entirely new kingship and conferring it upon Robb? Or did the office of King in the North *exist since antiquity* and the lords of the North decoupled it from the Iron Throne (dethroning Joffrey) and 'enthroning' Robb?

Thanks!