A River of Time - Group project :) (New proof settling when Andals arrived?)

[AlaskanSandman]

Not true. You can clearly see that there were successive waves of Andal Invasions. The one that happened before the Justman rule was obvious one of a small scale during the earlier stages on the Andal Invasion which took place over many centuries as clearly illustrated in the stories of the Kings who ruled in Westeros. Id say earlier to mid stages of the Invasions. Definitely not in the later stages (centuries) of the Andal Invasions.

This is clear through Arlan III's successors being unable to hold his gains in the Riverlands as they were still dealing with Andals in the Stormlands, wellllll after the Vale had fallen.  

Again, this is alllll dependent IMO on how exactly the Andals had Invaded Westeros, where, and for how long it had taken. 

  

[Maester of Valyria]

Thank You!  Really hoping it can become a tool for alot of us, even if that's people copying and pasting it into an Order that they believe. Long as we have more of a back bone of time that we can trust rather than Maester speculation.

• Problem is, we dont actually know all of that, time as we're told is based off the Maesters. That is why the goal of this thread is to use the events of other cultures to help better decide these things. What the Maesters have told us is both a mess, told out of synch, and even questioned among members of their own guild. As any good man of logic, we must deduce for our selves. That being said, 3000 years to consolidate your wealth and territories? At that kind of pace and lack of fast acting decisiveness, Im pretty sure Canada could expands faster. (No offense intended Canadians ) point is, theses time are ridiculously unbelievable by alllllll  arguements. Rome would have put Valyria to shame, badllllyyyyyyy. If the British had been that slow, the Indians might have won and America wouldn't be here. 

OOpss. Yes i did mean West, not East. Thank you. Couple things to consider when dealing with Valyria and it's movements. One, every one else, again is the point of this thread, to not take just one account, but multiple accounts. In this case, one very big culture doesn't line up with Valyria's "history" as told to us by the Maesters. Yi-ti, in fact, what the Maesters tell us about them seems all jacked up too. But with the clues you need at least. Simply put. The long night was 8000 some thing years ago, except the list about the Emperors of Yi-ti dont stretch back that far.     (paste from another thread)     "Grey, Indigo, Jade Green, Scarlet, Pearl white, Sea Green, Yellow, Purple, Maroon, Azure, and Orange. None are missing You can count it as 10 tho for your math since the Orange empire is brand new and contending with the 69th yellow emperor from which the yellow empire ended 1000 years ago and the 17th azure and current emperor. The Eunuchs only ruled for 130 years . Now if all 10 empires ruled for 700 years then you might be able to reach the commonly excepted date for the Long Night. Except we know that only one lasted 700 years while some (meaning at least two) were no more than 50 years. With the Pearl White only 130 years long. At least 2 in between at around 350 years. plus 4 interim periods, the longest lasting only 100 years. The best you can come up with for them extending the dates is roughly 4000 years, and thats grasping in my opinion. The info and math just doesnt support there empire being 6000 plus years long by a long shot."

So since the Golden Empire of Yi-ti isn't that long, and as i point out in the time thread above about the Andals invading around 2000 years ago. You have multiple accounts of things in history happening much more recently and more compressed in the time line.

This goes back again to what i mention about Yandel stating many times that "shortly" after destroying Ghis, Valyria turned her attention West. 3000 years is only short if your immortal. For the rest of us, thats foreverrrrrr.  

Again i stress that 3000 years is far from conceivable. China was only able to achieve the longest House rule through isolation from the rest of the world. Once the rest of the world found them, they fell like every nation falls. Even Egypt didnt have 5000 years or even close to that of one long running empire. It was multiple kingdoms that rose and fell and changed. Again, at 3000 years to consolidate an area not much bigger than North America, that's just pathetically slow. I have a hard time rationalizing this aspect alone, not to mention the other facts that seem to contradict what we've been told.

• I know that 3000 years does seem like quite a stretch, but the Valyrians were most probably a people skilled in planning for the long term: better a slow and steady expansion over a long time than a short and unstable one over a decade or so. During this time, they would have founded some of the peninsula cities, expanded their territory to include the areas where Volantis and other Rhoyne settlements would be built, consolidating their power over Ghis (I imagine there would have been several revolts to start with), and probably cultivating trade with other civilisations (Yi Ti, Leng, Summer Isles, etc). When you factor all this in, 3000 years doesn't seem like such a massive wait (although it is still a pretty big one). As I stated earlier, for the early part of its history the Freehold wasn't that interested in expansion: the wars against Ghis seemed more defensive than anything else, and the struggles with the Rhoynish were initiated by the colonies, not by Valyria itself.
• I think your point about there not being enough dynasties of Yi Ti to cover the whole period is ignoring the fact that the list of dynasties in TWOIAF is not exhaustive: it's just a collection of some of the most notable emperors. There could well have been many more dynasties that just weren't mentioned in the book.
• Especially when it comes to the Far East, timelines and histories get less and less reliable. This doesn't necessarily point to a conspiracy, just that nobody in Westeros has any clue what really went on.
• While I agree that 3000 years is a stretch by any standards, it is less of one for a civilisation like Valyria. Instant communications and fast travel would have helped the Freehold stay together. And you bring up an interesting point with:

3000 years is only short if your immortal.

I saw a theory a while ago that speculated that the early Valyrians/Daynes/GeoDawnians were in fact 'fire wights' or similar, and so really were immortal. I dislike that theory for a number of reasons, but it's fun to think about.

• While your historical examples are all accurate, none of them ever had a method of instant communication to coordinate the empire, or dragons to travel quickly from A to B. And the 5000 years figure includes the period of the Freehold's history that was concerned with expansion over Western Essos.

 

 

^ I agree.  There was a lot of work to be done.  The Valyrians also took over areas to the east including some of the islands of the Jade sea and the area where Qarth is now.

I don't believe that there is any evidence that the Valyrians took over any islands of the Jade Sea, and we know that Qarth remained independent.

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

I am  gonna take me a little time to get to it tho, bear with me haha, Lots to do and read and type and so on and the real world keeps calling too  peeked already though

 

There are a lot of timeline threads out there, but the reason why I've recommanded you this one is that the OP has pointed out the problems of Qhored I Hoare the Cruel being both a High King and extinguishing the Justmans. And Elio answered and admitted that GRRM had written the Ironborn section without checking the other sections and that it is indeed a mistake. So you shouldn't try too hard creating a timeline with the known facts about Qhored Hoare.

[AlaskanSandman]

There are a lot of timeline threads out there, but the reason why I've recommanded you this one is that the OP has pointed out the problems of Qhored I Hoare the Cruel being both a High King and extinguishing the Justmans. And Elio answered and admitted that GRRM had written the Ironborn section without checking the other sections and that it is indeed a mistake. So you shouldn't try too hard creating a timeline with the known facts about Qhored Hoare.

The only real error is Theon Stark, and one solution makes it no error at all, but we'll see what we go with

The only real error is Theon he say's. So the part on Qhored is accurate, just probably meant to be misleading given us fans being so observant and harder for George to sneak things by us.

That being said, the main construction of my time line does not require Theon, or Qhored really.

If youll look carefully and note the content in black, it's whats most telling.

Content in black shows when the Andals likely arrived. Each ruling house is given for the river lands. The only length of time really needed is the Teague length of rule. Even if Qhored is off by 1000 years, even 2000 years, the likely hood of the Andals arriving 6000 years ago is reallly hard to stretch and make fit. The math just doesn't add up. 

[AlaskanSandman]

• I know that 3000 years does seem like quite a stretch, but the Valyrians were most probably a people skilled in planning for the long term: better a slow and steady expansion over a long time than a short and unstable one over a decade or so. During this time, they would have founded some of the peninsula cities, expanded their territory to include the areas where Volantis and other Rhoyne settlements would be built, consolidating their power over Ghis (I imagine there would have been several revolts to start with), and probably cultivating trade with other civilisations (Yi Ti, Leng, Summer Isles, etc). When you factor all this in, 3000 years doesn't seem like such a massive wait (although it is still a pretty big one). As I stated earlier, for the early part of its history the Freehold wasn't that interested in expansion: the wars against Ghis seemed more defensive than anything else, and the struggles with the Rhoynish were initiated by the colonies, not by Valyria itself.
• I think your point about there not being enough dynasties of Yi Ti to cover the whole period is ignoring the fact that the list of dynasties in TWOIAF is not exhaustive: it's just a collection of some of the most notable emperors. There could well have been many more dynasties that just weren't mentioned in the book.
• Especially when it comes to the Far East, timelines and histories get less and less reliable. This doesn't necessarily point to a conspiracy, just that nobody in Westeros has any clue what really went on.
• While I agree that 3000 years is a stretch by any standards, it is less of one for a civilisation like Valyria. Instant communications and fast travel would have helped the Freehold stay together. And you bring up an interesting point with:

3000 years is only short if your immortal.

I saw a theory a while ago that speculated that the early Valyrians/Daynes/GeoDawnians were in fact 'fire wights' or similar, and so really were immortal. I dislike that theory for a number of reasons, but it's fun to think about.

• While your historical examples are all accurate, none of them ever had a method of instant communication to coordinate the empire, or dragons to travel quickly from A to B. And the 5000 years figure includes the period of the Freehold's history that was concerned with expansion over Western Essos.

 

 

I don't believe that there is any evidence that the Valyrians took over any islands of the Jade Sea, and we know that Qarth remained independent.

 

Hmmm, if Valyria were immortal or rather gifted with a long life (possible with in the parameters of the story given people using blood some how to stay young for at least a century or more) that mighttt make it possible. Id have to think on it a little but im not sure. We do have Durran, Lann and Brann, all of which possibly lived for 1000 years. The Grey King was 1007 and Garth, who knows. Maybe 10,000? But again, idk.

Now, i do agree that Valyria really doesn't seem to be expansionist. The only real expansion came from the religious refugees seeking their own place of worship. Ghis i agree seems to be more out of defense than expansion. That being said though, i still have a hard time excepting Ghis fell 5000 years ago. Valyria would have taken control over slavers bay and the slave trade, and would NOT have let the slaves take control of the cities (who now rule). Yet we see no real evidence of Valyria in the East, at least nothing solid. Qarth i think is up for debate. I cant help but think of the Qartheen as early religious refugees too. These "Milk Men" seem rather out of place with their fellow men of the area around them. There are other things about Qarth and it's surroundings that make me wonder this too, like some of Dany's visions in THOTUD. Plus the marriage between a Valyrian and Emperor of Yi-ti still makes me question Eastern movements.

As shown in the time thread above using Westerosi history, the time doesn't seem long enough. The Crypts of Winterfell are too small, the list of Emperors in Yi-ti is too small, Valyria's movements dont add up, and other info all seem to point to the same thing. It's not like it's just one thing pointing to a shorter time line.

Yi-ti's list of emperors is mentioned as being incomplete but Yandel states with pretty fair certainty the amount of Empires that there are. He says only ONE ruled as long as 700 years. If alllllll 11 (the 11th is actually brand new so you cant really count them.) were 700 years, youd still only come to 7700 years ago plus the 4 interrim periods (one of which made it to 100 years) and you have maybe 8000 years, all while stretching what we are told to the point of lying. But this is not the case as told to us. Only one lasted 700 years, SOME as short as 50, while the Eunuchs ruled for 150. Seriously, add them up and what we're told. It is pretty impossible to argue against. It just does not add up. You would need alottttttttt more dynasties ruling for a much longer time period.  

Take the crypts of Winterfell, literally every king we've ever heard of are alllll on the top floor, covering into the Kings of Winter. Obviously into the Starks earlier reigns. Even if there is a 2nd floor beneath with more, this seems highly unlikely. Infact, no one from the current books has ever been down there except i think Jon told Bran he had once. Point is, what's beneath those crypts isn't likely more crypts, it's a dif secret i think.

There is enough time and possible kings to maybe fill one more level of the crypts than the one we've seen based on these kings being able to roughly be crossed referenced against other kings of Westeros. Id wager heavily on this.

So while we still disagree a little which is to be expected, we def agree that Valyria doesn't seem to be expansionist. 

As far a Fire Whights? Hmmm i always kinda considered the dragons to fill that role. Fire made flesh. The Others i think of as Water made flesh. I tend to see the main battle as Water/Ice vs Land/FIre. Though that is an interesting thought.

Out side of Valyria and Qhored, is there any thing else that stands out to you personally about the time thread as possibly wrong?

Im noting Theon Stark, Qhored, and Valyria as topics of debate for this thread and really do enjoy all these ideas and debates

[Dorian Martell]

We aren't supposed to know conclusively when the Andals came ashore in the Vale. there is nothing in the books even close to an accurate timeline.  We have the given timeline that says 4000 years and we have a maester that says 2000 years. The whole point of the stories is that history is clouded. Without Carbon dating or accurate records, the people and thus the readers will never know. 

[The scourge of westeros]

We aren't supposed to know conclusively when the Andals came ashore in the Vale. there is nothing in the books even close to an accurate timeline.  We have the given timeline that says 4000 years and we have a maester that says 2000 years. The whole point of the stories is that history is clouded. Without Carbon dating or accurate records, the people and thus the readers will never know. 

exactly; there's not enough info and really none of it concrete by your own admissions that the maesters may cover up the truth. AWOIAF is cloudy because most of the stories are third party or further from the source, along with the fact that GRRM didn't want to give too much away as far as what may coincide with future storylines. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Still fun to puzzle out

[Maester of Valyria]

Out side of Valyria and Qhored, is there any thing else that stands out to you personally about the time thread as possibly wrong?

Im noting Theon Stark, Qhored, and Valyria as topics of debate for this thread and really do enjoy all these ideas and debates

No, I think that's it. I think the stuff that we disagree on is either errors that may have slipped into the writing process, devices to make the plot a bit easier to understand (lots of the Stark kings being on the first floor may just have been so Bran could tell Osha, and therefore us, a bit about each of them.), or stuff we simply can't reach a verdict on without more information.

As for the Andals, have you considered that a reason for the dates' discrepancies might be because their migration was staggered? As in, the first lot arrived 5000 years ago, the second lot 1000 years later, they took the Stormlands 3000 years ago, etc (just throwing random dates and places in there: without my books I can't remember the proper sequence!).

Regardless, thank you for compiling this timeline, it has been very informative and interesting.

[AlaskanSandman]

No, I think that's it. I think the stuff that we disagree on is either errors that may have slipped into the writing process, devices to make the plot a bit easier to understand (lots of the Stark kings being on the first floor may just have been so Bran could tell Osha, and therefore us, a bit about each of them.), or stuff we simply can't reach a verdict on without more information.

As for the Andals, have you considered that a reason for the dates' discrepancies might be because their migration was staggered? As in, the first lot arrived 5000 years ago, the second lot 1000 years later, they took the Stormlands 3000 years ago, etc (just throwing random dates and places in there: without my books I can't remember the proper sequence!).

Regardless, thank you for compiling this timeline, it has been very informative and interesting.

Some of that im hoping we can still hash out. Rann seems to be letting people know where the errors lie and dont lie so that's a lil helpful haha and that'd good to hear, thank you!  The Stark tomb im really hoping the lower levels are a secret and not just more tombs. I like the idea of dragon eggs or dragon or something cool down there 

As far as Andals, definitely! They have clearly came over a long period in multiple migrations/ invasions. I have even questioned the possibility that they came for different reasons too. The last group coming because of Valyria, for instance. 

One question i have is whether the Brackens and Mudd's and Fisher's really ruled at dif times or the same times. The reason being is that one, the time line obviously gets very hazy there and i wonder if there's not more to it than just that. The other being that all the kingdoms back in the oldest times seem to be rather small and their borders not more than a days ride. This would explain some of this vague time period and settle (for me) whether or not the Grey King and Durran lived at the same time, as i suspect them as being the same and having a connection to Merman as iv'e proposed in my other theories. I still cant get past alllllll of the tales in the Age of Heroes that seem to involve Andals or things associated to Andals such as Tourney's, Knights, Chivalry, a Kings Guard, Dragon slayers (and the fact first men had dragons) and more.  

If this time thread is right, Artys Arryn took the Vale no longer than 2000 years ago, and the Maesters are clearly lying to us. If we can figure it out, then the Maesters should already know. So what else are they hiding in those tales? What really was the situation back then? Dragons, dragons slayers, whites, others, and more. What was happening? I already assume the Maesters and or Septons orchestrated the death of the Dragons, but why? To what end? I have some suspicions but id like to have a little more to go one.   

[Maester of Valyria]

Some of that im hoping we can still hash out. Rann seems to be letting people know where the errors lie and dont lie so that's a lil helpful haha and that'd good to hear, thank you!  The Stark tomb im really hoping the lower levels are a secret and not just more tombs. I like the idea of dragon eggs or dragon or something cool down there 

As far as Andals, definitely! They have clearly came over a long period in multiple migrations/ invasions. I have even questioned the possibility that they came for different reasons too. The last group coming because of Valyria, for instance. 

One question i have is whether the Brackens and Mudd's and Fisher's really ruled at dif times or the same times. The reason being is that one, the time line obviously gets very hazy there and i wonder if there's not more to it than just that. The other being that all the kingdoms back in the oldest times seem to be rather small and their borders not more than a days ride. This would explain some of this vague time period and settle (for me) whether or not the Grey King and Durran lived at the same time, as i suspect them as being the same and having a connection to Merman as iv'e proposed in my other theories. I still cant get past alllllll of the tales in the Age of Heroes that seem to involve Andals or things associated to Andals such as Tourney's, Knights, Chivalry, a Kings Guard, Dragon slayers (and the fact first men had dragons) and more.  

If this time thread is right, Artys Arryn took the Vale no longer than 2000 years ago, and the Maesters are clearly lying to us. If we can figure it out, then the Maesters should already know. So what else are they hiding in those tales? What really was the situation back then? Dragons, dragons slayers, whites, others, and more. What was happening? I already assume the Maesters and or Septons orchestrated the death of the Dragons, but why? To what end? I have some suspicions but id like to have a little more to go one.   

You're very welcome! I'm glad I can help out with this stuff. I have a very good memory for finding specific citations in the books, so if there's anything you're stuck on let me know!

I expect that some of the earlier groups of Andals came over for religious conversion or simple conquest, and then the remainder came fleeing Valyria. We've just got into the habit of saying 'Valyria' and leaving it at that.

All in all, very interesting, and I look forward to more of your work!

[Jak Scaletongue]

I've just skimmed the thread so far - but one thing you mentioned in one of the first few posts makes a lot of sense to me.  The Riverlands have been noted for their lack of natural defenses/barriers, so it seems like it wouldn't be much of a stretch to speculate that Blackwoods/Brackens could be ruling a *part* of what is now considered the Riverlands, while the Mudds or Justmans or whoever are ruling another *part* of what is now the Riverlands.  It's even possible that there were three or four separate houses ruling different areas, with one house slowly taking territory from another (but all still in what is now the Riverlands).

 

Kind of like how Wessex, Mercia, Cumbria, Essex, Sussex, etc, etc were all separate kingdoms but were consolidated slowly into a single kingdom.  I know ALL of Westeros is basically a very large "British Isles" - but it was the best analogy that came to mind!  Maybe Italy before unification would be a better one (except I don't know as much about it!).  On second thought, I think Italy might be a better analogy.  Anyone know anything about the Italian kingdoms/city states before unification?  Is it a better analogy?

[AlaskanSandman]

I've just skimmed the thread so far - but one thing you mentioned in one of the first few posts makes a lot of sense to me.  The Riverlands have been noted for their lack of natural defenses/barriers, so it seems like it wouldn't be much of a stretch to speculate that Blackwoods/Brackens could be ruling a *part* of what is now considered the Riverlands, while the Mudds or Justmans or whoever are ruling another *part* of what is now the Riverlands.  It's even possible that there were three or four separate houses ruling different areas, with one house slowly taking territory from another (but all still in what is now the Riverlands).

 

Kind of like how Wessex, Mercia, Cumbria, Essex, Sussex, etc, etc were all separate kingdoms but were consolidated slowly into a single kingdom.  I know ALL of Westeros is basically a very large "British Isles" - but it was the best analogy that came to mind!  Maybe Italy before unification would be a better one (except I don't know as much about it!).  On second thought, I think Italy might be a better analogy.  Anyone know anything about the Italian kingdoms/city states before unification?  Is it a better analogy?

Exactly!!! Plus we're given an Age of Hundred Kingdoms, which look at it in the time line V

• Unknown length of rule for House Teague. - House Manderly goes North sometime during Teague rule, 900-1000years before current story. Arlan I "The Avenger" (extended the borders of the Kingdom of the Storm as far as the Blackwater Rush and the headwaters of the Mander,ruled during the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms) and Arlan II Durrandon in Stormlands in the last century of Teague rule. 800-700 years ago

As you can see by Arlan's placement that the Age of the Hundred Kingdoms was running at least up till his time with in 8-700 years ago. 

This would explain alottttt really. The unification of Westeros was veryyyy recent if at all before Aegon came. 

Between this, the fact the Andals came in multiple waves over at leasttt 400 years if not more, and the fact they can cut up river inland just like the Vikings, by passing the Vale and the coast untill a later wave all help make possible a smaller time line which is clearly evident in the first post. Explaining why there are tales taking place on the west side of Westeros that seem at odds with what were told about what was happening on it's eastern coast. 

[AlaskanSandman]

You're very welcome! I'm glad I can help out with this stuff. I have a very good memory for finding specific citations in the books, so if there's anything you're stuck on let me know!

I expect that some of the earlier groups of Andals came over for religious conversion or simple conquest, and then the remainder came fleeing Valyria. We've just got into the habit of saying 'Valyria' and leaving it at that.

All in all, very interesting, and I look forward to more of your work!

Awesome

and i agree, look at Hugor, that was probably the start of their expansion under religious ferver. Followed later by their flight from Valyria. The thing that interest me is why? Why did Valyria whoop the Andal and send them packing, and yet when the Targaryen's arrive, they tip toe around the Faith of the Seven...The religion of the Andals. What happened back then, and or what does the Targaryens know? 

Thank you and like wise!

[TheSovereignGrave]

Even if you have dragons, doing stuff to piss off the continent you just conquered is still not a good idea. The Freehold had untold numbers of dragons at their disposal; the Targaryens had three. They didn't completely bow to the Faith, as they continued on the incest, but completely disregarding it would have just been a recipe for trouble. And look at the way Aegon in general treated the people he conquered; he let them keep their own laws and customs and whatnot. He was under no obligation to allow the ruling Houses who bent the knee to keep their seats and yet he did. He didn't need to let the Ironborn elect their Lord Paramount, but he did. He wasn't quite as tyrannical as some people seem to think; he just wanted to rule Westeros.

[AlaskanSandman]

Even if you have dragons, doing stuff to piss off the continent you just conquered is still not a good idea. The Freehold had untold numbers of dragons at their disposal; the Targaryens had three. They didn't completely bow to the Faith, as they continued on the incest, but completely disregarding it would have just been a recipe for trouble. And look at the way Aegon in general treated the people he conquered; he let them keep their own laws and customs and whatnot. He was under no obligation to allow the ruling Houses who bent the knee to keep their seats and yet he did. He didn't need to let the Ironborn elect their Lord Paramount, but he did. He wasn't quite as tyrannical as some people seem to think; he just wanted to rule Westeros.

Maybe, but as i suspect the Faith of the Seven as killing of the dragons in the Age of Heroes and Dance of Dragons, i suspect them of being a great threat. One that the Targaryens are tip toeing around for a reason. Targaryens never once dared to burn down the Citidel even. Not even the craziest ones. 

[Maester of Valyria]

Maybe, but as i suspect the Faith of the Seven as killing of the dragons in the Age of Heroes and Dance of Dragons, i suspect them of being a great threat. One that the Targaryens are tip toeing around for a reason. Targaryens never once dared to burn down the Citidel even. Not even the craziest ones. 

Maegor did burn down the Sept of Remembrance, and warred extensively with the Faith Militant. The Citadel was spared thanks to the Maesters never (openly) going against the Crown.