Theon rant

[INCBlackbird]

I found this rant about Theon on tumblr that basically covers all my thoughts on the matter so I thought i'd share so we can discuss, both with people who agree and who disagree:
 

To be honest, I get so irritated when people bash Theon and say he is the most malicious character in the serious. All of this is nothing of course when they then follow it up by saying that “he got what he deserved.”

I mean really? Theon deserved to be physically mutilated over and over again? Theon deserved to be mentally tortured to the extent that he lost his own sense of self? Theon deserved to be told in such a callous way that someone he considered to be a good friend was brutally betrayed and murdered by his tortures father? And whether you’re into the books or the show, he deserved to watch and have the power to do nothing as a girl (Sansa or Jeyne) who he knew as little girls were physically abused, raped, and mentally tortured over and over again?

Really? Is it because you think sexual assault, physical abuse, or mental abuse is okay if it is done to a man? Is it because you believe that an individual deserves to lose their sense of identity and be humiliated over and over again as long as you personally don’t like their character? Is it because you think Theon made his earlier mistakes with absolutely no legit reasoning behind them?

Because look, all of those above ideas are disgusting. A man suffering from physical, sexual, or mental abuse should never be considered okay just because they are not a woman. Abuse is abuse regardless of gender. No one deserves to have their identity stripped away from them and treated like a sub-human creature. No one should treat an animal like that. Much less a man or woman. Finally, Theon like all the other characters from the series is only responding and making decisions based on the situation they have growth up with.

Theon was given away by his own father. No, his sister didn’t deserve to be given away either. Imagine though living in the society they live in which teaches boys from a very young age that they are worth more than women and then being unceremoniously given to an enemy house when you are the last son left. Already, Theon would grow up with an inferiority complex. Then, imagine having to live in a place far, far away from your true home with the looming threat of being beheaded if you father, who already showed he valued you very little, decides to rebel. Imagine also being a glorified hostage of the Stark’s but being expected to be GRATEFUL to them. The Starks are not bad people by any means. Under the circumstances they treated Theon relatively well yes but that doesn’t mean he owes him their allegiance. Even Robb who he was closest to and considered a friend, reminded Theon about his status at times. Did he thank him for saving Bran’s life? No, he yelled at Theon and treated him like a subordinate. When Theon was telling Robb that he needed to go to war to retrieve his family, Robb snapped at him and reminded him that he wasn’t a Stark. Therefore, Theon was in the horrible situation of living with this group of people that yes treated him well but made it clear he would never really be considered a part of the family. Then, Theon goes and discovers that his father is resentful of him for being too much like a Stark. Therefore, Theon was now in the situation of not being able to be a Stark but not really being accepted as a Greyjoy either. Wow! What an enviable position to be in!!!

No wonder Theon went on to make the series of truly horrible decisions he made. Allowing the two farmer’s adopted children to be burnt to death. Taking Winterfell, and then staying in Winterfell. Choosing to give his loyalty to an abusive, neglectful father instead of a friend. Looking at the last one though, I want to make it completely clear. Theon owed the Stark’s NOTHING! He was their HOSTAGE! If I was held as a hostage since childhood and given the opportunity to go home, I would most certainly run with it too. So, in the end yes it would have been wiser to CHOOSE to give his loyalty to Robb rather than his father, but it was his CHOICE not his OBLIGATION.

So,  if you don’t like Theon Greyjoy fine, but please don’t say he “deserved what he got” or “betrayed the Starks.” Both are simply just not true.

source: http://visceraeyes420.tumblr.com/post/134795408321/theon-greyjoy-rant

[FuzzyJAM]

Theon has done some of the most evil, unjustifiable things in the series.  You can try to explain it away all you like by a sad childhood or the callousness of his culture or whatever you want, but he still did evil things whether he deserve sympathy or not.  People who do such things completely deserve punishment.  

To say such a punishment should be torture, though. . .that's not something I could endorse at all, or take any pleasure in.  

[Taenqyrhae]

When Theon agreed to fight alongside Robb, that's when he owed the Starks something and why he can be said to have betrayed them.  If he had said "No, Robb, you are like a brother to me but our families are not allies, and though you have treated me well there is no denying I am your hostage - I cannot fight for you" - then it would not have been betrayal.

Then he would just be a serial-killing rapist and child murderer, not a betrayer.

[Bright Ancalagon]

Hold up. Jon was treated like a bastard all his life. Even so he was loyal. Theon deserved death. But was kept alive so he doesnt have any reason to complain 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Theon killed two kids and hung their bodies up on a wall, but deep down he is a warm and fuzzy guy

[INCBlackbird]

Theon has done some of the most evil, unjustifiable things in the series.  You can try to explain it away all you like by a sad childhood or the callousness of his culture or whatever you want, but he still did evil things whether he deserve sympathy or not.  People who do such things completely deserve punishment.  

To say such a punishment should be torture, though. . .that's not something I could endorse at all, or take any pleasure in.  

Theon certainly has done evil things that he deserved punishment for, but that can be said about most of the characters in asoiaf, the point is that Theon gets an unproportioned ammount of hate. And people seem to consider him one of the few who've done evil things, while when you look at it, most of the characters that the majority of the fandom are cheering for have done things just as bad/worse than Theon. The world these characters live in is way more brutal then the one we live in and we're reading mostly about the elite, the ones in power who can do a lot of damage and most of them do, some on purpose some not on purpose, some because they're incompetent, some because they're competent, some have bad intensions and some good intensions, But in the end everyone who is in a position of power is responsible for deaths one way or the other (that's quite unavoidable)

[INCBlackbird]

When Theon agreed to fight alongside Robb, that's when he owed the Starks something and why he can be said to have betrayed them.  If he had said "No, Robb, you are like a brother to me but our families are not allies, and though you have treated me well there is no denying I am your hostage - I cannot fight for you" - then it would not have been betrayal.

Then he would just be a serial-killing rapist and child murderer, not a betrayer.

so what should he have done in your opinion?

[INCBlackbird]

Hold up. Jon was treated like a bastard all his life. Even so he was loyal. Theon deserved death. But was kept alive so he doesnt have any reason to complain 

why did Theon deserve death? because of something his father did? so he should be greatful that he wasn't killed... Jon was a bastard but  Theon was a hostage...

[INCBlackbird]

Theon killed two kids and hung their bodies up on a wall, but deep down he is a warm and fuzzy guy

more like a damaged emotional wreck who desparately wants to be accepted as who he is.

[Taenqyrhae]

Some readers don't cut anybody any breaks.  I have not defended the morality of anyone who has done things as evil as Theon.  The closest I have come to that has been defending Jaime, who did attempt murder of a child, but for far more justifiable reasons than Theon, and it was the proper thing to do under some moralities - I'd probably kill an unrelated child to save the lives of my three children if that was the only choice.

[FuzzyJAM]

I'm really not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion, by either in-universe morality or their own, that Theon hasn't done notably worse stuff than the majority of characters.  Such a position is just beyond me.

[Artos Cold]

When Theon agreed to fight alongside Robb, that's when he owed the Starks something and why he can be said to have betrayed them.  If he had said "No, Robb, you are like a brother to me but our families are not allies, and though you have treated me well there is no denying I am your hostage - I cannot fight for you" - then it would not have been betrayal.

Then he would just be a serial-killing rapist and child murderer, not a betrayer.

Rapist?

[FuzzyJAM]

Rapist?

He rapes Kyra.

[Richard Writhen]

Not to excuse Theon, but in the books Ramsay is right up in his ear making suggestions to rape and kill people like the devil himself. It's totally cut out of the show, so it makes less sense. Theon was more or less rational before Ramsay got to him.

[Nevets]

While I agree that he in no way deserved what he got, he did betray Robb.  If A sends B as an envoy to negotiate an alliance with C, and B instead joins C and attacks A, capturing his home and taking his family captive, has B betrayed A?  Is this even a question??  Of course he has.  If you want to argue it was justified, fine.  You might get a nice argument.  But don't try to say ti wasn't a betrayal of Robb, because it absolutely was.  If you agree to be someone's envoy, you owe him your loyalty.

As for Theon,he's a pathetic little shit who made a series of mindbogglingly bad decisions, and did acts (such as the murder of the millers' boys, and the taking of Winterfell in the first place) that I find indefensible.  His torture and his rescue of Jeyne Poole are a partial redemption, but if he is, for example, sacrificed by Stannis, which I think is possible, I will say "good riddance".   I will not be sorry in the least to see him die

[sarah.jenice]

I don't think anyone deserves what Theon got. That's not justice. 

[Minsc]

I'm really not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion, by either in-universe morality or their own, that Theon hasn't done notably worse stuff than the majority of characters.  Such a position is just beyond me.

What do you consider the majority of characters?  Are you just counting POVs or is it just everyone?  Because Theon isn't really worse than any of the Lannister POVs, other Greyjoy POVs, and a few others.

[INCBlackbird]

Some readers don't cut anybody any breaks.  I have not defended the morality of anyone who has done things as evil as Theon.  The closest I have come to that has been defending Jaime, who did attempt murder of a child, but for far more justifiable reasons than Theon, and it was the proper thing to do under some moralities - I'd probably kill an unrelated child to save the lives of my three children if that was the only choice.

I'm sure there's some readers yeah and I'm not saying that you have because I don't know your posts, I don't know what you have and haven't said. But I'm talking in general this is talking from what I have seen while reading about Theon online for 3 years or so and the fact that it's almost universally accepted that Theon owed the starks something despite the fact that he was their hostage and I don't think anyone holds the position that if a child is kidnapped they should be greatful to their captors and owe them loyalty because they didn't hurt them while they could have. I defend Jaime as well, I am generally cut most characters slack for what they do because of the world they live in and the issues they have had to deal with, most characters mean well. The only ones I condamn are the ones that don't mean well, the ones who are actually bad people and not just incompetent people.

[Artos Cold]

He rapes Kyra.

Really? Can i get a quote?

[INCBlackbird]

I'm really not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion, by either in-universe morality or their own, that Theon hasn't done notably worse stuff than the majority of characters.  Such a position is just beyond me.

as in Theon is reponsible for the deaths of what... 20 people? a little more maybe. Stannis, Robb, Daenerys (all characters I like and are generally liked by the fandom) are responsible for thousends upon thousends of deaths...