Is it bad that I understand and accept Cersei and Jaime's relationship?

[Tianzi]

9 hours ago, Marcus Agrippa said:

I never really cared about the Jaime/Cersie relationship. It was doomed from the start.

That's another aspect. I wonder if Martin has the guts to write a happy and surviving incestuous relationship.
 

[239JMFL34109]

I understood the relationship i don't get what OP mean by accept? I love reading these characters and their relationship but i think it is being portrayed as a product of their unhealthy mental state. If they were not related i would still say the relationship is unhealthy and self destructive. 

[WSmith84]

Well, the fact is that both Jaime and Cersei knew that if their affair was ever discovered, they would probably have to kill whomever discovered it. They were playing a dangerous game their entire lives and they knew it. Maybe they were OK with that when it was just the two of them, but once a child came along they knew they were risking his life as well. It's why I don't buy George's assessment that many people would do as Jaime did. Sure, in a vacuum, maybe I (and others) would kill a child to protect my own. However, I think most people wouldn't engage in an affair if they knew that they would have to potentially murder anyone who discovered it. Jaime's decision to murder Bran can only be construed as the more ethical one if you ignore all of the unethical stuff that put Jaime in that position in the first place.

If Jaime and Cersei wanted to be together, they should have grabbed a mountain of gold from Tywin and ran off to Essos. If not, they should have gone to opposite ends of Westeros and strived to never meet eachother again. Westeros is huge, it shouldn't be that difficult.

[oopeed]

15 hours ago, Tianzi said:

I'm fine with it because they're consenting adults (well, they weren't always adults, but the relationship seemed to be healthier, however that sounds, when they were children), but I'm not fine with making incestous babies.

I'm fine with the Robert situation, treason or not, because he was an ass. I'm less fine with Lancel, the Kettleblacks and Moon Boy, oh, and her crush on Rhaegar and in their youth (Jaime seems to be blissfully unaware he was the second choice).

I'm not fine with her being toxic, abusive control freak who thinks she would make a better Jaime than Jaime himself. However, I pity her because it's very clear that it's the patriarchal society which messed her that way (and Jaime aside, she's unable to get any power without controlling men).

I'm not fine with her cheating on Jaime and turning on him because he stopped being pretty and follow her blindly. However, I'm also not fine with Jaime abandoning her and their children as he did with burning the letter, because they are still his family even if his sister/girlfriend has gone bonkers.

I found Jaime's proposal to Cersei both stupid and sweet. I found Cersei's refusal both calculating and sensible.

Overall, this relationship was clearly toxic and it's Cersei who corrupted Jaime, but I don't think he can just have a clean and 'honorable' out and be happy with himself after cutting 'toxic' ties. Whatever this relationship was, its fruits at least are his responsibility.

I don't think it was ever a healthy relationship; do not even think about them being siblings, I do not support it but I can definitely understand how people with good working rapport can fall for each other and that's fine; but if I recall correctly, Cersei was never the sanest person to begin with and while Jaime fostered romantic feelings for her, Cersei acted out of a mix of jealousy, desire for control and overall her complete disregard for other people's thoughts.

As they grew older I think that the only one who got the short stick was Jaime. And in the end he was discarded as a tool in the very Cersei-esque fashion, only for her to come back when she unavoidably mucked up. I am happy that Jaime finally gave his back to a person who only robbed him of a lifetime of opportunity because it was not available to her. He is a shitty dude, but he definitely didn't deserved the fate that others drew for him.

So yes, I do think that he can just cut his ties and come clean; after all it was not him who killed Robert, he was not the one who turned Joffrey into the piece of shit that he was, neither the responsible for crows like Littlefinger, Aurane Waters and the High Sparrow's rise to power nor the one who fucked up the most powerful alliance in the realm since Robert's rebellion... Cersei got there on her own, and should not drag her brother with her any longer.

[Tianzi]

On 24 kwietnia 2016 at 4:51 PM, Merengues said:

I don't think it was ever a healthy relationship; do not even think about them being siblings, I do not support it but I can definitely understand how people with good working rapport can fall for each other and that's fine; but if I recall correctly, Cersei was never the sanest person to begin with and while Jaime fostered romantic feelings for her, Cersei acted out of a mix of jealousy, desire for control and overall her complete disregard for other people's thoughts.

As they grew older I think that the only one who got the short stick was Jaime. And in the end he was discarded as a tool in the very Cersei-esque fashion, only for her to come back when she unavoidably mucked up. I am happy that Jaime finally gave his back to a person who only robbed him of a lifetime of opportunity because it was not available to her. He is a shitty dude, but he definitely didn't deserved the fate that others drew for him.

So yes, I do think that he can just cut his ties and come clean; after all it was not him who killed Robert, he was not the one who turned Joffrey into the piece of shit that he was, neither the responsible for crows like Littlefinger, Aurane Waters and the High Sparrow's rise to power nor the one who fucked up the most powerful alliance in the realm since Robert's rebellion... Cersei got there on her own, and should not drag her brother with her any longer.

Oh no, he didn't kill this particular king and nobody knows he came close. He only fucked his queen, fathered three bastards on her and let them be raised as heirs and sat on the throne. I'm pretty sure that count as treason.

Also, Cersei didn't get there on her own, she is also facing trial for something they did together.

I'm not arguing Cersei isn't a horrible person, and yes, she didn't let Jaime to be the father of their children and raised Joffrey to what he was. And dumped Jaime when he proposed to be the proper family. Yes. But sorry, they still have a family. Jaime is a grown man and 'my sister made me' isn't a proper excuse, he sired children and from the fact that there are three of them and that he organized Cersei an abortion of Robert's fetus (another treason, I suspect) I conclude that he knew what he was doing. So he has responsibility to them. And what's their children status if Cersei goes down? Many people in and out of the story seem to resign easily on 'Cersei spawn' and Joff was a monster who made a child murder look okay, but if there is one thing even this little shit was innocent of, it's his parentage.

So, no. Cutting his ties and escaping responsibility is exactly the opposite of 'honorable' here.
 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Understand? Sure, there's nothing difficult to understand there. Accept? Well, since you're busy congratulating yourself for not being squicked by the brother-sister thing, you might miss the fact that those two lovebirds had fucked the realm into a civil war. Tens of thousands dead, a conservative estimate. The number of lives ruined must be higher still. Yep, actually it is kinda bad to accept that.

[The Wolves]

On April 24, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Merengues said:

I don't think it was ever a healthy relationship; do not even think about them being siblings, I do not support it but I can definitely understand how people with good working rapport can fall for each other and that's fine; but if I recall correctly, Cersei was never the sanest person to begin with and while Jaime fostered romantic feelings for her, Cersei acted out of a mix of jealousy, desire for control and overall her complete disregard for other people's thoughts.

As they grew older I think that the only one who got the short stick was Jaime. And in the end he was discarded as a tool in the very Cersei-esque fashion, only for her to come back when she unavoidably mucked up. I am happy that Jaime finally gave his back to a person who only robbed him of a lifetime of opportunity because it was not available to her. He is a shitty dude, but he definitely didn't deserved the fate that others drew for him.

So yes, I do think that he can just cut his ties and come clean; after all it was not him who killed Robert, he was not the one who turned Joffrey into the piece of shit that he was, neither the responsible for crows like Littlefinger, Aurane Waters and the High Sparrow's rise to power nor the one who fucked up the most powerful alliance in the realm since Robert's rebellion... Cersei got there on her own, and should not drag her brother with her any longer.

Jaime and Jaime alone had control over his fate. 

I get that Cersei is batshit crazy and is manipulative but she's responsible for her actions just like Jaime should be held responsible for his. Jaime is not some innocent guy who was wronged by the big bad Cersei. Jaime is to blame that he spent a lifetime being someone's "yes bitch" and not his own person. 

And yes Jaime shares 50% of the blame that is Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen. He shares the blame for a civil war that's ripped the country apart he shares blame for the White Walkers easy ability to end the war. He shares blame for contributing to Cersei's rise to power.  He shares the blame for Joffery, breaking his vows, trying to murder a child etc.... 

Jaime shares so much blame for many things especially TWot5ks. 

[Light a wight tonight]

20 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Understand? Sure, there's nothing difficult to understand there. Accept? Well, since you're busy congratulating yourself for not being squicked by the brother-sister thing, you might miss the fact that those two lovebirds had fucked the realm into a civil war. Tens of thousands dead, a conservative estimate. The number of lives ruined must be higher still. Yep, actually it is kinda bad to accept that.

So many people blaming the Twincest for the war. Littlefinger and Varys/Illyrio have separately been laying the foundation for some sort of war for a long time. 

Who else can we blame? Cat for arresting Tyrion? Tywin for overreacting to that? Bran for snooping around the tower? Cersei for achieving Robert's death? There was a whole chain of events that had to be unbroken for the war to take place.

[norwaywolf123]

This relationships only purpose is to kickstart war in Westeros

[Clegane'sPup]

On 12/8/2015 at 9:41 PM, Lord Parker said:

Believe me, I have asked myself so many times whether I am a perverted sicko for believing in the incestuous love of these twins or not. Obviously at the beginning of the story I shook my head and thought it was gross, and was even kind of baffled at how GRRM created these characters. Correct me if I am wrong, but incest is frowned upon in almost, if not every known civilized society known to man and yet I find myself accepting of this couple, even rooting for them at times, and love to watch their relationship. Do not get me wrong, I don't ship it because I find Cersei to be toxic and holding Jaime back from becoming a better man, but I accept it and in a way it is beautiful and poetic to me. I don't know how to describe it. I just get it. I've come to this conclusion that if a person wants to understand Jaime's complexity, they need to accept the major impact of his love for Cersei. They have many ups and downs, sure, but to me they are the most interesting couple of the series.

I feel as if I've grown from watching these two interact. Don't get me wrong, I don't think incest is an appealing practice or anything like that, I just think it works for these two characters, which is weird. I don't know. Am I alone on this matter?

When I first read the scene I almost decided that this book was not for me. What was worse was the Dany wedding bs. After that I decided I would skip Martin's erotica. There is one thing I want to know, who is Jon' mom.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

So many people blaming the Twincest for the war. Littlefinger and Varys/Illyrio have separately been laying the foundation for some sort of war for a long time. 

Who else can we blame? Cat for arresting Tyrion? Tywin for overreacting to that? Bran for snooping around the tower? Cersei for achieving Robert's death? There was a whole chain of events that had to be unbroken for the war to take place.

The twincest is most defiantly to blame for the war. Everything that kickstarted the war can be traced back to the twincest. 

The schemers like Littlefinger and Varys had the twincest to star a war which Jaime and Cersei provided. 

[Clegane'sPup]

On 12/8/2015 at 9:41 PM, Lord Parker said:

feel as if I've grown from watching these two interact. Don't get me wrong, I don't think incest is an appealing practice or anything like that, I just think it works for these two characters, which is weird. I don't know. Am I alone on this matter

Hopefully I am not getting you wrong. I am not judging your opinion. I am judging Martin's.

[Marcus Agrippa]

The real issue with the cersei&Jaime relationship is that it can be interpreted as lazy. I don't believe Martin did that, I think he did very well of flashing it out, and for it's time period it was a MASSIVE twist on fanasty, bt I can see why reading this series now would change the opinion on it. Problem is that because of the run of the books 1991(?)-20? we are looking at people who judge them off todays fanasty which has become darker.

[Light a wight tonight]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The twincest is most defiantly to blame for the war. Everything that kickstarted the war can be traced back to the twincest. 

The schemers like Littlefinger and Varys had the twincest to star a war which Jaime and Cersei provided. 

Varys was working for a Targ (or Blackfyre) return to power, nothing to do with Cersei & Jaime's kids. LF was working to revenge himself against the Tullys and Starks, again a separate issue. Without the Twincest there would have been a war anyway; the foundation was laid. You could even make a case that if Bran had died in the fall the chain of events that led to Tywin invading the Riverlands wouldn't have happened.

[Aderyn]

Personally, I'm not sure what I think of incest as a real-life phenomenon, but Cersei and Jaime's relationship makes a lot of sense story-wise and I think it's one of the best single aspects of the story. 

It's multi-layered, a relationship that is far from simple (none of them are, of course, but this is like the gold-star example). Yes, I believe there is 'love' there, but the kind of love Jaime and Cersei have is obviously far from healthy or unconditional. Especially from Cersei's side it's a very selfish kind of love or attachment, it's always about how she can use Jaime in one way or another. 

I won't go too deep into this, I think others have already posted wonderful analyses in this thread so I don't have much else to add. Anyway, thanks to OP for creating such an interesting topic.

//PS. To actually answer OP's question: no. There's nothing weird in understanding or accepting Cersei and Jaime's incestuous relationship in the story. It simply goes on to show that as a reader you're in touch with the characters and understand their background and personalities.

[talvikorppi]

On 10.12.2015 at 5:07 AM, Wall Flower said:

<snip>... how much he hated Robert being the one to climb into Cersei's bed in the wheelhouse every night. There is quite a lot of jealousy and possessiveness about his urgent desire for sex. His disillusion with Cersei comes about because she betrays him sexually, not because he suddenly wakes up to her being a bad person (he's been her partner in crime for a long time).

As discussed in previous threads, Cersei's more of a narcissist than a psychopath - hence her delusional thinking about herself and the world. Jaime definitely has the potential to be a better person, at least as much as a child of Twyin can be. I'm not sure about the relationship between nature and nurture but Jaime had some advantages over his two siblings in being the favoured golden haired son and heir growing up and in being exposed to better influences as a squire and young knight.

The bolded is certainly true, Jaime has a trait of jealousy and possessiveness to his character. How many times did we read "Lancel, the Kettleblacks and Moonboy for all I know" during AFFC? Tyrion certainly knew how to get at his brother when he wanted to hurt him. (Almost as many times as we read "Where do whores go?" - words Tywin said to Tyrion... do we see a pattern here?)

Then there's the Red Ronnet incident in Harrenhal. Jaime is surprised to hear Red Ronnet was betrothered to Brienne. Red Ronnet goes on to disparage and disrespect Brienne and BAM, Jaime gives him one with his golden hand. A knight defending a maid's honour? Maybe, but also Jaime's jealousy and possessiveness. He might not "love" Brienne in the modern sense of the word, or is unaware of his "love", but he knows Brienne far better than Red Ronnet and sees her as his own in a way. A former betrothered? He doesn't like it, and he doesn't like him (because of the betrothal). Sends him away to escort prisoners so that he doesn't have to see him.

[Joy Hill]

5 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

The bolded is certainly true, Jaime has a trait of jealousy and possessiveness to his character. How many times did we read "Lancel, the Kettleblacks and Moonboy for all I know" during AFFC? Tyrion certainly knew how to get at his brother when he wanted to hurt him. (Almost as many times as we read "Where do whores go?" - words Tywin said to Tyrion... do we see a pattern here?)

Then there's the Red Ronnet incident in Harrenhal. Jaime is surprised to hear Red Ronnet was betrothered to Brienne. Red Ronnet goes on to disparage and disrespect Brienne and BAM, Jaime gives him one with his golden hand. A knight defending a maid's honour? Maybe, but also Jaime's jealousy and possessiveness. He might not "love" Brienne in the modern sense of the word, or is unaware of his "love", but he knows Brienne far better than Red Ronnet and sees her as his own in a way. A former betrothered? He doesn't like it, and he doesn't like him (because of the betrothal). Sends him away to escort prisoners so that he doesn't have to see him.

Poor Hyle Hunt if he ever meets Jaime. The Kingslayer is NOT going to like him.

[talvikorppi]

On 27.4.2016 at 11:42 PM, The Wolves said:

The twincest is most defiantly to blame for the war. Everything that kickstarted the war can be traced back to the twincest. 

The schemers like Littlefinger and Varys had the twincest to star a war which Jaime and Cersei provided. 

Littlefinger and Varys wanted to destabilise the realm for their own purposes, and the twincest provided a good "excuse". I'm sure if there hadn't been twincest, Littlefinger and Varys would've found other ways, but Jaime and Cersei handed them a gift on a platter, so they used it.

[talvikorppi]

2 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

Poor Hyle Hunt if he ever meets Jaime. The Kingslayer is NOT going to like him.

haha! I have this fanfiction in my mind that Brienne - not wanting to do anything to bring dishonour to herself (the one caveat in her oath to Cat) - spills the beans.

B: I am to take you to Lady Stoneheart to be killed, elsewise squire Podrick and Ser Hyle will die.

J: Who's Ser Hyle?!?!

Nevermind who the fuck is Lady Stonehart or the prospect of being killed.

Oh, imagine if they meet and affable Ser Hyle mentions proposing marriage to Brienne - another BAM of the golden hand - before Jaime hears she turned him down. haha.

[Tianzi]

29 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

Poor Hyle Hunt if he ever meets Jaime. The Kingslayer is NOT going to like him.

Ironically they have a lot in common with their relationships with Brienne: snarking at her, mocking her for her ugliness, disparaging her, slowly going to respect her, siding with her, becoming seemingly attracted to her to some degree. That's among the reasons I suspect that Jaime might kick the bucket and leave Brienne to marry Hunt after that.

But that's OT.

37 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Jaime has a trait of jealousy and possessiveness to his character. How many times did we read "Lancel, the Kettleblacks and Moonboy for all I know" during AFFC? Tyrion certainly knew how to get at his brother when he wanted to hurt him.

That's true, but we have to hand it to him that he's been completely devoted to Cersei all his life, while she wished to be Rhaegar's wife and even wasn't repulsed with the thought of marriage to Robert at first.

On 24 kwietnia 2016 at 6:14 AM, Lady bonehead said:

I also think that Jaime's fidelity to Cersei is one indication of just how strange he is.  No-one (except her) would have blamed him for breaking his vows occasionally over the years as long as he was discreet.

I think it's noble of him. And he certainly expected the same from her: Robert didn't count as 'real' infidelity, since she a. did her best to avoid his bed unless he raped her b. didn't really have a choice whether to get married. But as soon as he heard that she she'd 'really' cheated, Jaime flipped and even toyed with the idea of killing her for it.