Jump to content

The Crone Wars: She Sees our Fates as they Unfold


Seams

Recommended Posts

The Crone is one of the seven aspects of the new gods but GRRM has given us a number of interesting crones in the supporting cast throughout the novels. I hope the hive mind here can help to work out the function of these characters and see what it tells us about the web of relationships in ASOIAF.

I began by trying to list people I thought might fall into the category of crone. A loose definition might be women past child-bearing age. That definition has to be very loose, though, as someone like Melisandre is said to be very old, but she is able to “give birth” to a shadow baby. I have also seen a post in this forum proposing that Samwell Tarly is a crone figure, so I may have been too literal in my interpretation.

A couple of things caught my interest, as I began to fill out the list and find supporting quotes to describe and explain the crones. One of these things is proximity of crones to fools and to singers. Many of these characters appear in important scenes that also feature a singer or a fool (e.g., Olenna Redwyne and Butterbumps; Catelyn (mother) becoming Lady Stoneheart (crone) just about the time she cuts Jinglebell’s throat; Lady Smallwood scolding Tom Sevenstrings, etc.) Cersei thinks that the fool Moonboy is more honest than the fortuneteller Maggy the Frog, but thinks that Maggy should have worn a fool’s outfit, too. She also compares Lady Tanda Stokeworth (and others) to Moonboy: “She had resolved not to give Falyse another thought. Single combat. Falyse should have known better than to marry such a fool. The word from Stokeworth was that Lady Tanda had died of a chill in the chest, brought on by her broken hip. Lollys Lackwit had been proclaimed Lady Stokeworth, with Ser Bronn her lord. Tanda dead and Gyles dying. It is well that we have Moon Boy, or the court would be entirely bereft of fools” (AFfC, Chap. 36).

For some time, I have put Lord Mormont’s raven in the category of a fool, as he seems to have wise insights that are spoken in the form of cryptic outbursts, much like the strange utterances of Patchface or others of GRRM’s fools. This may underscore the crone/fool connection, as we learn from one of Catelyn’s POV’s, “the Crone… had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death” (ASoS, Chap. 2).

Instead of fools, ravens are more often associated with communication and perhaps with an observation function linked to Bloodraven and the weirwood trees. A number of the crones in the books are supposed to be wise and able to “light the path” to see the future. We do see crone women such as the Dosh Khaleen and Maggy the Frog making prophecies. Others don’t deliberately make predictions, but may be aware of future events that are unknown to the characters they are guiding. Old Nan might be one example of this, with her knowledge of myths and legends that predict the future, and the conversation of Cersei’s dressmaker with Sansa takes on new meaning when you reread it with the knowledge that the dressmaker is aware that she has been tasked with making a wedding dress and cloak for Sansa’s wedding to Tyrion, and that the purpose of the dress is to remain a secret from Sansa.

Some of the crone women provide wise advice to young people even when they don’t seem to realize they are being wise. For instance, sweetsunray has pointed out that Lady Smallwood (whose maiden name was Swann) plays a pivotal role in Arya’s “ugly duckling” story arc, dressing Arya as a highborn lady and telling her she is beautiful. Believing they are conversing about embroidery, while Arya is talking about sword fighting, Lady Smallwood says, “The gods give each of us our little gifts and talents, and it is meant for us to use them, my aunt always says. Any act can be a prayer, if done as well as we are able. Isn't that a lovely thought? Remember that the next time you do your needlework” (ASoS, Chap. 22). Arya likes Lady Smallwood, and this advice from someone who wants her to look like a noble lady probably makes Arya feel good about one of the activities that has always felt right to her, even if Lady Smallwood didn’t mean to encourage Arya to engage in combat.

Besides the proximity to fools, another common pastime for crones seems to be dressing the women they are guiding. We see this with Lady Smallwood and Arya, with Cersei’s dressmaker and Sansa, and with the Septas who bring Cersei her humble garment when she is imprisoned in the Sept. Given this behavior, I was interested to note that Taena Merryweather helps Cersei to get dressed for her trip to visit Margaery at the Sept just about the time that Lady Stokeworth is on her deathbed. Does Taena replace Tanda in Cersei’s arc? Taena has a relatively young son, but she may qualify as a crone. She does seem to observe and gather information like a raven.

I am still fascinated with the fabric and clothing metaphors in the novels so, in addition to the women who dress other women (are all handmaids a kind of crone? Even if they are young?), I have included women who weave on my list of crones. When Cersei visits Maggy the Frog, blood from Cersei’s cut finger drips onto the carpet of Maggy’s bedchamber. Carpets, tapestries, weavings – these could be the work of a smith, but the Fates of ancient Greece worked with yarn. I think these fall within crone territory.

Lady Stokeworth seemed to pose a problem with the crone image, as crones are supposed to be wise and to provide guidance, while Lady Stokeworth is widely considered to be dimwitted (Littlefinger and Tyrion express this opinion, although perhaps not as strongly as Cersei). I think she is still a crone, though, as the guidance or role-modeling she could provide comes in the form of a devoted mother, a generous provider of food for King’s Landing (when we know the royal treasury has no way to pay) and a loyal noblewoman at a time of crisis. Cersei does not recognize or value these qualities, however, and she does not shed a tear when Lady Tanda eventually dies. If Taena Merryweather is the new crone in Cersei’s circle of acquaintance, it may remain to be seen whether Cersei will be better served by the “wisdom” that Taena of Myr brings to her. Be careful what you wish for, Cersei . . .

While many of the crones seem to focus on guiding younger women, some of them seem to play an important role for men. Lady Dustin, for instance, helps to prepare fArya / Jeyne Pool for her wedding, but she plays a bigger role in Theon’s arc. Two characters very important to Tyrion – Shae and Bronn – are also linked to the Stokeworths, even though Lady Stokeworth seems to be primarily Cersei’s crone. Melisandre is focused on Stannis and then on Jon Snow.

Here is my list of crones and some subcategories I used to try to organize them. Who have I left out? Chataya? Lysa Arryn? Who should come off the list? Septa Lemore? Some people fit into more than one category, but I’ve listed them only once.

Do you see any patterns besides fools and dressing? Is there something about names with “Wood” in them? First names with “Ella”?

For some crones, I have included passages that I thought were significant. I hope people can provide additional relevant quotes in the comments section.

Crones from Essos

Dosh khaleen

Mirri Maz Duur

The Green Grace of Meereen, Galazza Galare

Quaithe of the Shadow

Melisandre says she has practiced her art for “years beyond count” and may be very old.

Elza (or Ella), a deceased weaver slave once owned by Grazdan zo Galare, whose name he has forgotten

One of the three escaped Astapori after the Siege of Astapor: a brickmaker, a weaver and a cobbler.

Maggy the Frog –

“In life the crone had screamed at them in some queer foreign tongue, and cursed them as they fled her tent. But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death.” (AFfC, Chap. 36)

Moon Boy was standing beside the door, holding his rattle in his hand and gaping at the confusion with his big round eyes. A fool he may be, but he wears his folly honestly. Maggy the Frog should have been in motley too, for all she knew about the morrow. Cersei prayed the old fraud was screaming down in hell. The younger queen whose coming she’d foretold was finished, and if that prophecy could fail, so could the rest. No golden shrouds, no valonqar, I am free of your croaking malice at last.” (AffC, Chap 43)

Cersei’s Crones

Lady Tanda Stokeworth

Lady Taena Merryweather?

The Seamstress who makes Sansa’s wedding dress at Cersei’s request (ASoS, Chap. 16)

Septa Crones

Septa Mordane

Septa Lemore

Septa Moelle – Appears before Cersei’s small council to report that Margaery Tyrell’s maidenhead was found to have been broken.

Septa Aglantine

Septa Melicent

Septa Unella – Margaery: “They wake me to demand confessions. Last night I confessed to Septa Unella that I wished to scratch her eyes out." (AFfC, Chap. 43)

“Four shriveled septas escorted the queen down the tower steps. Each of the crones seemed more feeble than the last. When they reached the ground they continued down, into the heart of Visenya's Hill.” (AFfC, Chap. 43)

“A sacred court of seven judges shall sit upon this case. Three shall be of your female sex. A maiden, a mother, and a crone. Who could be more suited to judge the wickedness of women?” (AFfC, Chap. 43)

“She ran as far as the sept, but no farther. There were women waiting for her there, more septas and silent sisters too, younger than the four old crones below. "I am the queen," she shouted, backing away from them. "I will have your heads for this, I will have all your heads. Let me pass." Instead, they laid hands upon her. Cersei ran to the altar of the Mother, but they caught her there, a score of them, and dragged her kicking up the tower steps. Inside the cell three silent sisters held her down as a septa named Scolera stripped her bare. She even took her smallclothes. Another septa tossed a roughspun shift at her.” (AFfC, Chap. 43)

Crones of Westeros

The ghost of High Heart

Masha Heddle (Proprietor of the Inn at the Crossroads)

 Grisel was Lord Petyr Baelish's wet nurse but now keeps his tower.

Old Nan

Wylla was the wet-nurse to Edric Dayne

Olenna Tyrell (nee Redwyne)

Lady Barbrey Dustin (nee Ryswood)

Lady Donella Hornwood (nee Manderly)

Lady Ravella Smallwood (nee Swann)

Lady Anya Waynwood

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you have a very broad definition of the Crone... Old Nan would be my favorite example from the text.  The Crone's calling cards are old age and wisdom, remember that women live longer than men, and in the north (north of the wall) old hunters will wander off into the winter rather than linger as a burden. So the wise old people in a village would usually be women... Crones, this is true of most warlike cultures

 

Personally I believe that the religion of the Seven is all about the power of Man... Each of the aspects are an evolution of an element as an aspect of society... The crone would be Ice, ice preserves, old age, and her lamp held high is remenicent of the North Star (eye of the ice dragon) and the northern lights... Wisdom. Also, don't forget about that Nights King story starting with a corpse bride...

Smith is an evolution of Fire, think of Valyria as the builders of civilization, etc.

The Stary Sept is in Old Town so the fact that this classic capital of the faith is shared by the Citadel is no coincidence.

Also the seven pointed star representing the seven aspects of one God also nicely translates in man being a unification of primordial elements.

 

anyway, my 2cents, cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

@Seams

I just discovered this thread (thanks to "the bat and the wolf" thread !^^), and I hope I've understood the purpose, so I would add a unexpected crone I saw during a re-reading.

It's Grenn, but in one chapter : Sam I, ASOS.

In this chapter, Grenn received successively all the physicall characteristic of the crone and finish the chapter by showing to Sam the dawn through the tree, after Sam killed the Other.

During the escape from the Fist, Sam is progressively abandonning. Once he lays himself down, as if he wanted to sleep... for eternity, and Grenn arrives to help him. He appears first more as a bear (a snow bear for the occasion !) than other thing :

Quote

"Get up." Grenn's voice, harsh and husky. He loomed over Sam, his blacks crusty with snow. "There's no resting, the Old Bear said. You'll die." (Sam I, ASOS)

 But the "bear apparition" fails to give courage or "energy" to Sam. 

So the "appearance" changes a little : 

Quote

"You won't." Grenn's thick brown beard was frozen all around his mouth. It made him look like some old man. "You'll freeze, or the Others will get you. Sam, get up!"

And just after, Sam remember how Grenn is (kindly) mocked by his brothers for his stupidity or "innocence". With Pyp, he forms a kind of couple : the witty fool who gives consciently fun to others, and the "fool" who is mocked despite himself. 

Grenn try to bear Sam, but despite the fact he is called "Auroch", he fails : Small Paul is arriving with a torch and each finds his real place : Small Paul give the torch to Grenn - who is know an "old man" with a torch, like a crone with her light - and Small Paul bears Sam. 

Grenn gives some judicious advices (I mean keeping his mind awake and spare his energy; and I think they permit that Sam survives and prepares him to find the strenght for thinking to Jon and slaying the Other)

After the fight with the Other, Sam follows Grenn who has no more torch, but who "gained" dawn light instead : 

 
Quote

 

Grenn pointed with the knife. "Look there, through the trees. Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn. That must be east. If we head that way, we should catch Mormont."
"If you say." Sam kicked his left foot against a tree, to knock off all the snow. Then the right. "I'll try." Grimacing, he took a step. "I'll try hard." And then another.

 

In a certain way, the crone could be also a lightbringer. 
I think also that the gender doesn't matter for GRRM. 
 
I had also thought to Theon as a crone figure, after his captivity in Dreadfort's jail, but it is longer to explain, and I have no more time (it's very late here)

 

 

 

 
Quote

 

 

 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 @GloubieBoulga You may be right - hard to say at this point.

My own thinking is that not every fire or light source is the same - a crone's lantern is not the same thing as a flaming sword or a wildfire grenade or a glass candle.

I always saw Grenn and Pyp as the equivalent for Jon of Lommy Greenhands and Hot Pie in Arya's thread: the first members of her new "wolf pack." To me, Grenn sounds like "green," and Benjen tells Jon that he is just a green boy when he arrives at the Wall. A pip is a seed, so Pyp's name ties into the "seed is strong" motif. I also think that some of these close allies among Jon's Night's Watch brothers (and, later, among his wildling friends) are aspects of Jon himself. I think Grenn is the ranger aspect of Jon.

I may be biased by a thread I read i the forum long ago - I can't even remember the author or title. It analyzed the scene with Sam and Grenn and Small Paul in terms of the Mithras sacrifice of the white bull. I found it so persuasive that I have a hard time seeing other imagery in that sequence of events. But you may be seeing a layer of meaning that I just haven't seen yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Seams said:

My own thinking is that not every fire or light source is the same - a crone's lantern is not the same thing as a flaming sword or a wildfire grenade or a glass candle.

I agree, and that's why Grenn appearing as "an old man" before he take the torch is important : indeed, he makes an exchange with Small Paul (he begins as a bull/bear figure, but exchanges the part with Small Paul when failing bearing Sam)

 

6 hours ago, Seams said:

I may be biased by a thread I read i the forum long ago - I can't even remember the author or title. It analyzed the scene with Sam and Grenn and Small Paul in terms of the Mithras sacrifice of the white bull. I found it so persuasive that I have a hard time seeing other imagery in that sequence of events. But you may be seeing a layer of meaning that I just haven't seen yet.

The sacrifice of Small Paul as a white bull is in the text imo (and with blood, salt, smoke and fire), but I always saw the mythologic (external) references only as references to help to see what the text can mean, to invite the reader to connect with other similars scenes (internal references). In the case of Sam, in his first chapter as PoV, there is almost some internal references (I think I don't recall all of them) : 1.AGOT Prologue, 2.what he tells Jon the first time we encounter him on AGOT, about the sacrifice of a bull whan he was younger, to make him stronger and more courageous, 3. The first Davos's chapter in ASOS, when he is lost on a rocky isle after the Blackwater, and is "praying" the Mother. 

After that, reading Sam's chapters, I was wondering if he didn't replay the "true story" of Hugor Hill encountering all the 7 and also the One who is all the 7 (=Bran). But he is also playing shortly the "last hero tale" (this one when he is at Braavos, encountering Cat of the Canals who save him from "Others" and permit him to find one man who saw dragons). In each chapter, he would receive a gift/a blessing from one of these "god's incarnations" (at Aemon's funeral, he receives the blessing of the Mother played by Gilly). In fact, I'm yet occupied with Sansa and I didn't have "groundly" examinated Sam's case, but I recall he is the only character (for the moment) who is dreaming of a feast of living and not dead people, presiding himself. In a certain way too, the Andals and the 7 represent for Westeros a rupture with the fathers and the mothers who were honorating the Old God (a maner to cut the "puppet strings", or the "chains"), and life goes on instead of declinating

But I stop here, this is not Sam's thread ^^ 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...