Does Anyone Really Believe Stannis Will Burn Shireen?

[Wild _Rover]

you may be right.  In that case it's likely I'll never read the rest of the series, so from my perspective it doesn't matter.  I'm not particularly interested in reading the novels years and years after I've already seen (essentially) the ending, and given GRRMs current productivity it will literally be decades before he finishes  two more books, let alone three+.

anyway I think we agree on the essentials - Shireens death leading to Jon getting resurrected would be BS, and The show is basically telling GRRMs original story - at least when it comes to the major beats of the plot.  What I'm less sure on is whether GRRM will A) change his mind - not unlikely considering the plot we see from the pitch letter or B.) whether we will ever see the rest of the story as told by GRRM. 

You really couldn't be more wrong. The show has already went way off track with major story lines while creating ones that just dont make any sense so much so that the very end might be the same but how they get there is going to be completely different. Why would Stannis burn his only living heir? In the show it made sense because they made Stannis into a nut job that goes blindly into a uphill war but in the books Stannis is out strategizing the Boltons. Not to mention he seems pretty over burning people at this point. in the books there are several ways Jon can be brought back if he really is dead since he gets stabbed about 90 times less than in the show. I could see Mel burning Shireen but not Stannis. 

[talvikorppi]

I think the only thing we can glean from the show is that Stannis and Shireen will not be there in the very end. The books are so complex even now, and may become even more so, that the show has simplified things to get to the same general outcome in a reasonable amont of seasons (8 seems to be it ATM).

I like reading about the character Stannis - especially because it's mostly through the eyes of two of my favourites, Davos and Jon Snow - because he's fascinating, but I'm not sure if I like the character so much as a person (if such a thing can be said about a fictional character! :-D )

I see Stannis's story as tragic. He's intelligent, capable etc. but he has flaws (e.g. inflexibility, ambition, resentment), which will ultimately lead to his doom. I can see him burning Shireen in the future but not to change the weather! It'll be for some (real or imagined) "save the mankind" reason. It will lead to Stannis's ultimate doom. That's the tragedy, sacrificing his own flesh and blood for maybe a misguided reason and not gaining but losing by it. That's why Mel or Selyse or anybody else cannot sacrifice Shireen, it has to be Stannis.

We don't know how events will play out. For all we know, the Others will have broken through and Stannis's last act will play out in the Riverlands or somewhere in the last book, so the place/logistics arguments put up by many above might not be relevant.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

You really couldn't be more wrong. The show has already went way off track with major story lines while creating ones that just dont make any sense so much so that the very end might be the same but how they get there is going to be completely different. Why would Stannis burn his only living heir? In the show it made sense because they made Stannis into a nut job that goes blindly into a uphill war but in the books Stannis is out strategizing the Boltons. Not to mention he seems pretty over burning people at this point. in the books there are several ways Jon can be brought back if he really is dead since he gets stabbed about 90 times less than in the show. I could see Mel burning Shireen but not Stannis. 

sorry but the information we have is that George told the showrunners that Stannis ultimately chooses to burn Shireen, and this conversation occurred sometime after ADWD was written.  We know that they had a meeting where GRRM told the showrunners the "endpoint" for each principal player shortly after s2 so it's probably safe to assume it was that conversation (as someone noted, Stannis didn't have a daughter until s3). 

Possible interpretations of this I suppose include GRRM lying, GRRM changing his mind, showrunners lying, or it being true.  I think the only reasonable choice among these considering I don't think Anyone would outright lie (they all seem to have good relationships and why would they want to jeopardize that), is that GRRM was planning to have Stannis do this, and now changed his mind, OR that GRRM still intends to have Stannis do this or something just as terrible.  Anything else is wishful thinking.

I was absolutely CRUSHED by what Stannis did, being a fan of his (still a fan of the character).  I do suspect that as GRRM originally envisioned it, Stannis choice would have been a bit more understandable (like, the Ww are coming and everyone is sure to die if he does nothing). But, I'm not convinced we'll ever know.

 

[Saving Stannis]

sorry but the information we have is that George told the showrunners that Stannis ultimately chooses to burn Shireen, and this conversation occurred sometime after ADWD was written.  

That's not entirely accurate. George told Dan & Dave that Shireen will be sacrificed. He did not explicitly say that it's Stannis who's responsible.  

[Protagoras]

While the show isn´t even close to be a perfect representation of the books (not by far, far, far), D&D have added many plot points from the book, some straight and some in their own twisted way. The idea that the book and the show are two completely separate mediums is an idea I find absurd and I do wonder how many people really believe it, instead of just saying it at some kind of perfunctory defence. 

Also, the story of a father forced to burn his only child simply strikes me as better literature, with more heart and for the lack of a better word, umpf, than simply having someone else do it. 

In addition, I don´t think D&D lied, especially not after Elio and Lindas reaction. 

So, yes - I would be very surprised if this didn´t happen. It is simply too strong scene. I am far more likely to believe that Stannis doesn´t die against the Boltons for example (I think he will win that one personally). 

 

[Lord Varys]

George talked about the Shireen scene when asked about it on his NAB, stating that he has yet to write 'that scene', sort of confirming that Shireen is going to die, and that the surrounding circumstances will be somewhat similar to those presented in the show.

In combination with the show runners claims that George came up with this murder of Shireen in the way they portrayed it - which was realized in the show as a murder commanded by Stannis with Melisandre urging him on Selyse breaking in the process - we can safely conclude that something like that is going to happen in the books, with the key players involved being Stannis, Melisandre, Shireen, Selyse, and possibly even Ser Axell and Davos (if he has returned from Skagos by then).

The result of the Shireen sacrifice could also be the same as it was in the show - the beginning of the end of Stannis' cause, Selyse killing herself, his men abandoning, Melisandre realizing that Stannis is not the savior, and so on. What made the show's version of this a travesty is that Shireen had to die to change the weather in preparation for a fight against the Boltons. That's just flat out ridiculous.

But replace the Boltons with the Others and wights and a little bit of snow with, say, months of snow and you may get an idea how George is going to portray this whole thing.

There are many nonsensical plot lines in the show - their version of 'Dorne' and all the 'characters' there, their version of Myrcella's death, their version of Selmy's death, etc. - but the Stannis-Shireen scene is something that seems to be in essence what's also going to happen in the books, and just like it was the beginning of the end for him in the show, it also should be the beginning of his end in the books. George most likely won't give him a quick and easy decapitation the way he got in the show. It is more likely that he'll the Others will come for him and give him some really blue eyes...

The idea that George originally intended Stannis to sacrifice Shireen and then changed his mind makes no sense at all. Most certainly not at this early point in the story (ADwD). He had decided to separate Stannis and Selyse/Shireen as early as ASoS, and nothing in ADwD suggests he ever wanted that his daughter join him in his campaign or that he even entertains the idea of sacrificing Shireen at this point.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

That's not entirely accurate. George told Dan & Dave that Shireen will be sacrificed. He did not explicitly say that it's Stannis who's responsible.  

I believe the wording was something along the lines of "when George told us about this we were really shocked".  Its not shocking if Mel or Selyse sacrifice her - it is really only shocking if Stannis is involved.

[Taenqyrhae]

I could see it happening if she somehow betrays Stannis.  Shireen and Davos have a fairly close relationship.  Davos seems to be a good man with a strong moral center who surely has some qualms about serving a witchery-using, kinslaying, megalomaniac who seems to enjoy burning people alive…if Stannis was going to execute Davos, and Shireen helped him escape, I could see Stannis burning her for treason.  He usually likes to have some kind of excuse for burning the people (e.g. the soldiers who ate the dead, despite Stannis being prepared to eat the dead during the siege of Storms End), and she has king's blood, so an angry Stannis who has had his plans disrupted by his formerly loyal advisor might be angry enough to execute his daughter, especially if he thinks the sacrifice will help him get the Iron Throne.

[Ser Greggor the Baked]

But if Stannis dies while Davos is away, then there may be nobody there to protect her. 

I always liked the idea that both Sharieen and Theon will be sacrificed... one for Stannis and one for Jon... And the show and book are doing them reversed. 

 What made the show's version of this a travesty is that Shireen had to die to change the weather in preparation for a fight against the Boltons. That's just flat out ridiculous.

They were stranded in the north in a HUGE blizzard. They did not have enough supplies to go back. In the show, if they did not win that battle, the entire cause was lost. It was a pretty dire situation. 

[marsyao]

 

The likely scenario seems that it'll be Melisandre who orchestrates the sacrifice in Stannis's absence and without his knowledge,

Let me make it straight for you, when the King is away, some dumb witch decides by herself to burn the princess, the King's only daughter and heir apparent of the Kingdom, do I miss something?

[rhaenys666]

 

you need to chill lol. It's a series of books not the bible. 

you cant sit with us.

by the way, the bible is not just one book but series of books. So, terrible analogy on your part; more of a reassurance for fanatics like myself.

[Fisch]

Come on, guys, this Mel-sacrifice idea with Stannis away is just nonsense. George would never do that since that would completely botch the whole idea of the father killing his own daughter aspect of it - that is where the true tragedy lies, not with a scenario in which 'the evil priestess' or 'the unsympathetic zealot mother' does it.

Well, the books have also set up that Mel does things without telling Stannis (Mance), so that might get a payoff.

I think it could happen (not sure if it will), but as everyone's already said, no way it'll play out the same way as the show.

And since someone mentioned it - what was Elio and Linda's reaction?

[Lord Varys]

Well, the books have also set up that Mel does things without telling Stannis (Mance), so that might get a payoff.

I think it could happen (not sure if it will), but as everyone's already said, no way it'll play out the same way as the show.

And since someone mentioned it - what was Elio and Linda's reaction?

We actually don't know that Stannis does not know about Mance. In fact, the impression I get is that Mel did what she did with Stannis' approval. He could not admit doing it openly but he, too, saw the reasoning behind Jon's argument in favor of sparing Mance.

Ran and Linda don't have much of a problem with the way the show portrayed the Shireen sacrifice. They certainly didn't like the change or the setting or the way it was done, but they don't care all that much about his story. Their assessment of Stannis' character basically is that he is capable of such an action and most likely will do it in the books (not meaning that they know anything about that, of course). They don't particularly like Stannis - my personal assessment is that Stannis sacrificing Shireen could become a very powerful and tragic element in the story.

And they were of course pissed that they were spoiled about this particular plot element in a way that made it pretty clear to anyone with open eyes that George intends to have Stannis sacrifice Shireen. That is not the most important plot element of all time but clearly something they (and many other people) would have wanted to read about first in the books.

[Saving Stannis]

you cant sit with us.

by the way, the bible is not just one book but series of books. So, terrible analogy on your part; more of a reassurance for fanatics like myself.

✓

[Kaibaman]

Well think of it this way. If Others get past the Wall and start slaughtering everybody and Stannis is trapped in Winterfell with what is left of his men while being besieged by the Others outside. If sacrificing Shireen would somehow make a difference and there are no other alternatives then surely he has to kill his beloved daughter. Otherwise not only will he and his men eventually die but so will Shireen along with all of humanity for that matter. I'm sure most of us wouldn't like to believe we could kill our loved ones for a greater good but given all that is at stake, maybe we would as a last resort.

[The Holy Goat]

SHireen will burn, but not because of Stannis. Melisandre and Selyse seem far more likely suspects for that crime.

[Lord Varys]

Mothers murdering their children during the Long Night is a common trope in Old Nan's tales. Not only Stannis might considering murdering his own daughter, the average peasant woman might do, too.

But then, a clean mercy killing won't be a big deal. There has to be something more to it than complete desperation. Else it won't be a sacrifice as Stannis himself would put it. Giving something that is effectively dead already won't be a sacrifice.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I could see it happening if she somehow betrays Stannis.  Shireen and Davos have a fairly close relationship.  Davos seems to be a good man with a strong moral center who surely has some qualms about serving a witchery-using, kinslaying, megalomaniac who seems to enjoy burning people alive…if Stannis was going to execute Davos, and Shireen helped him escape, I could see Stannis burning her for treason.  He usually likes to have some kind of excuse for burning the people (e.g. the soldiers who ate the dead, despite Stannis being prepared to eat the dead during the siege of Storms End), and she has king's blood, so an angry Stannis who has had his plans disrupted by his formerly loyal advisor might be angry enough to execute his daughter, especially if he thinks the sacrifice will help him get the Iron Throne.

That's show stuff only. Davos and Shireen have barely spoken to each other in the books, and Shireen is such a non entity that she's as likely to save Davos as I am to date Emma Watson.

[jarl the climber]

That's show stuff only. Davos and Shireen have barely spoken to each other in the books, and Shireen is such a non entity that she's as likely to save Davos as I am to date Emma Watson.

Yes that is something to keep in mind, Shireen is precocious in the TV show and mistrustful of Mel and the Red God. As far as we can see in the books she attends the night fires with her Mother and seems to have adopted the religion that has been professed by he parents. She is isolated and has very little contact with anyone outside of her Mother and her fool Patches. 

Still the whole thing makes me think back to Val and her reaction to Shireens condition. I thought if the wildlings took control of Castle Black amid the chaos after the possible assasination of Jon and if her prejudice against Shireens condition was widespread the wildlings might kill her. For that matter Bowen and his crew, if they gain control, they might seize her and send her to Kings Landing to appease the Lannisters and if she happened to die somehow while being captured no one would really cry about it. 

So somehow she survives the situation she is in now, which is dangerous, only to be burned by her own Father? That is a pretty big spoiler, I sort of agree with Linda and Ran. I can only think that Dan and Dave invoked Martin to deflect the heat off themselves. Still as shocking as it is, is Stannis really that different from some of the other parents. The Lannisters , the Martells , the Tyrells, the Starks haven't they all willfully endangered family members to achieve their ends?

 

[Saving Stannis]

Shireen is such a non entity that she's as likely to save Davos as I am to date Emma Watson.

never give up the dream man