[SPOILERS] Season 6 discussion thread.

[A Ghost of Someone]

 

 --snip---

I think Littlefinger's gambit in the North with Sansa is going to end up being his undoing. He's going to overreach in some fashion and poetic justice would be a Brandon/Littlefinger duel 2.0 only with Sansa NOT begging Brandon 2.0 to spare him as Cat did long ago.

Show Sansa must know that LF framed her for Joff's murder and sold her out to the Boltons against her will, otherwise he would have approached her about the marriage offer in the Vale, in private, rather than at Moat Caillin when she was all alone. LOL, she still does not know he put a dagger to her dad's throat either. That part is a joke to me. Show and book but more in the show as Roose Bolton is known by everyone to have put a knife through Robb Stark's heart.

[Boudica]

The answer about Rickon might depend a lot on the direction of the general story. 

The Stark succession might be a story line for season 7.  If Rickon is killed it might really become interesting to see who the Northern Lords would support. But even with Rickon alive this might still an issue, since Rickon is to young to rule and these aren't exactly peaceful times. 

But we also have to see what will happen will with Dany. If Dany finally invades Westeros then it might become a moot point. At this stage the show only has 8 seasons. I am not sure that they will have the time in season 7 to delve into Stark succession issues. I think season 7 might be more focused on Dany's invasion of Westeros, and her interaction with the other main characters within Westeros. 

I think it possible that the North might be against Dany at the start, especially if they want an independent Kingdom. Dany would likely not support that idea. So perhaps we will see some kind of conflict between the North and Dany in season 7. If that is the case then I am not sure we will see much of a question about Northern succession between the Starks.  In such a case it would perhaps make more sense if Rickon survived. 

On the other hand you do get a certain feeling that Jon and Dany has to meet each other at some point, and Jon needs some of his own authority to be able to meet Dany.  

[Lord Friendzone]

The answer about Rickon might depend a lot on the direction of the general story. 

The Stark succession might be a story line for season 7.  If Rickon is killed it might really become interesting to see who the Northern Lords would support. But even with Rickon alive this might still an issue, since Rickon is to young to rule and these aren't exactly peaceful times. 

But we also have to see what will happen will with Dany. If Dany finally invades Westeros then it might become a moot point. At this stage the show only has 8 seasons. I am not sure that they will have the time in season 7 to delve into Stark succession issues. I think season 7 might be more focused on Dany's invasion of Westeros, and her interaction with the other main characters within Westeros. 

I think it possible that the North might be against Dany at the start, especially if they want an independent Kingdom. Dany would likely not support that idea. So perhaps we will see some kind of conflict between the North and Dany in season 7. If that is the case then I am not sure we will see much of a question about Northern succession between the Starks.  In such a case it would perhaps make more sense if Rickon survived. 

On the other hand you do get a certain feeling that Jon and Dany has to meet each other at some point, and Jon needs some of his own authority to be able to meet Dany.  

Yes. Whether Jon will be King or not. He will still be in the position of the power for one simple fact...army. That will give him his power.

Also when will WW attack. They can't delay that too much so they might attack next season or at least season 7. Many people in the South will simply not believe in this srories about them. They will ignorant and for some of them it will be costly. Some might realize this threat and one of the people that needs to respond is Dany. Sam and Tyrion might convince her. Sam will be in Oldtown and Dany will clash with Euron and will be dealing with certain stuff there. Season 7 will be largely focused on Dany's invasion and it could be also on WW threat in the North.

[Myself656]

 The Stark succession might be a story line for season 7.  If Rickon is killed it might really become interesting to see who the Northern Lords would support. But even with Rickon alive this might still an issue, since Rickon is to young to rule and these aren't exactly peaceful times.

If the spoilers I've seen are accurate then any Stark succession issue would definitely be season seven. Rickon's death is supposed to be right around the Battle of the Bastards which, per reports is set for episode 9 which means his death likely won't be learned about by Jon or Sansa until the very end of the episode or even start of episode ten. Episode 10 would be the survivors moving into Winterfell, a funeral for Rickon and the setup for the succession issue that will be either the A or B story in the North depending on how quickly the Walkers move south from the Wall.

As to Rickon being too young to rule that's going to be a tough one to sell on screen given that Art Parkinson is taller than both Sophie and Kit. In the books he can still be six years old, the actor though was fourteen when season six was filming. Indeed, that might even be the reason Rickon is being killed off on the show when he might survive in the books (GRRM has mentioned some people were dead in the series who live in the books and some who are alive in the series who are dead in the books so this wouldn't even be new territory).

If so, my guess would be that there's a succession crisis coming in the books over who gets to be appointed Rickon's regent until he comes of age (since he's no more than six in the books). Because they know what comes out of the crisis D&D feel that preserving that story arc is more important to the story than preserving Rickon (whose actor looks too old to be denied the throne of Winterfell) with the thinking that even the books will never actually show Rickon ruling in his own right because that would be nearly a decade after the story ended and thus something they could change without affecting the book's ending too much.

Or GRRM told them Rickon dies at this point in the story because the story needed a full succession crisis and not just one over who gets to be regent and D&D are just following the bullet points he laid out. I could see arguments either way.

Also when will WW attack. They can't delay that too much so they might attack next season or at least season 7. Many people in the South will simply not believe in this srories about them. They will ignorant and for some of them it will be costly. Some might realize this threat and one of the people that needs to respond is Dany. Sam and Tyrion might convince her. Sam will be in Oldtown and Dany will clash with Euron and will be dealing with certain stuff there. Season 7 will be largely focused on Dany's invasion and it could be also on WW threat in the North.

If the spoilers I linked to above are accurate the White Walkers should be breaching The Wall at the end of season six. This makes sense narratively speaking as the only main characters involved with the Wall in past seasons have all moved south or are already dead and all that remains up there are minor supporting characters.

The only real question then is how fast do they advance South in season seven. There's a fair chunk of ground between Castle Black and Winterfell (about 600 miles based on the 300 mile length of the Wall) and we don't know how fast the White Walkers can move their armies. A good guess would be about 20 miles a day (about twice what a medieval human army could manage since they don't have to stop for food or rest but seem to trudge a bit slower than a living man on foot).

That's roughly ONE MONTH to get from the Wall to Winterfell IF they went straight there without stopping at any point along the way. If they stop to slaughter everyone along the way (Mole's Town, Queenscrown, Last Hearth) or take detours to ensure nothing North of them still lives (Shadow Tower, Eastwatch by the Sea, Karhold, Deepwood Motte, possibly the Dread Fort if they were really exacting about latitudes) then that could buy months or maybe a year before they reach Winterfell proper.

My drama senses suggest the White Walkers stop along the way so we get survivors streaming into Winterfell throughout season seven and the White Walkers themselves get within eyeshot of Winterfell at the end of season seven (just after the succession crisis is resolved one way or another).

I've had a particularly disturbing and dramatic theory on how that might play out as well. Winterfell has an intact Godswood and we've seen wights explode when passing through a barrier linked to the weirwood. Similarly, despite their ancestors knowing about Wights, the Starks never burned any of the bodies they placed in Winterfell's crypts despite that seeming to be the standard funeral custom of the First Men.

So, here's my theory... throughout season seven we get building dread as survivors/refugees flee the North and arrive at Winterfell. The people at Winterfell under Jon and/or Sansa get a whole "hour of last things" as the White Walkers move into sight of Winterfell and everyone thinks they're about to die... only just when the tension is at its highest, the White Walkers and their wights march AROUND Winterfell and leave it untouched as they continue to march south.

This of course stuns everyone (in a 'oh gods, we're ALIVE!' sort of way), the same blocking magic of the weirwood tree in the North and that kept The Wall from being breached is in Winterfell as well. Then the horrible realization that they're now essentially stuck behind enemy lines as the Walkers keep marching south, who knows how many Walkers and wights are just waiting in the dark to kill anyone who tries to leave and they've got way too many people packed behind the walls to possibly feed with the provisions at hand... and that's where they're left going into season eight.

* * * *

Such a time frame also gives time for Dany's invasion and Cersei's final collapse to play out in season seven. My hunch is Tommen will die near the end of season six, throwing Cersei into a paranoid reign of terror upon Kings Landing with ever more severe purges that will culminate in her trying to burn Kings Landing with Wyldfire. My hunch is we'll get a Jaime/Sandor teamup coming out of the Riverlands in season six and they'll have to head back to Kings Landing in season seven to deal with Cersei.

The big episode nine plot will be the final fate of Kings Landing... we'll get Cleganebowl (ex-Mountain vs. ex-Hound) since Robert Strong has to be killed or at least occupied before anyone can make it Cersei and then the Valonqar plot point as Jaime kills Cersei to keep her from burning the entire city to the ground.

The survivors of that conflagration will be on hand for episode ten when Dany finally reaches Kings Landing after spending most of season seven marching up from the south (my hunch is we'll get the preparations for leaving Mereen at the end of season six and Dany's forces landing in Dorne at the start of season seven to avoid the FX expense of all the ships and armies in transit).

So basically Dany will reach Kings Landing about the same time the White Walkers reach Winterfell. For added paralleling effect I'd not be surprised to see Dany take one look at the Iron Throne in the ruined hall before preparing to continue her march North. Her seasonal arc ending in direct parallel to the White Walkers bypassing Winterfell, but that gets into my theory of the final endgame for the series and well beyond the scope of the season six spoilers thread.

[WolfOfWinter]

Aside from being a bit too late to do a succession storyline next season when both the Others and Dany invade, as another poster pointed out, won't Bran be aware of LF's part in his family's demise? The teaser tells us that he knows everything that's taken place these past five seasons along with a whole bunch of other stuff including the future, so why wouldn't Bran warn his siblings in some form about LF's intentions? Of course I don't expect an answer since none of us know yet, but I hope they tackle this someway instead of ignoring it.

As for Rickon, yes he's grown a lot since we last saw him, but he has no training as KitN/LoW and is still a kid, so I'm not sure how his age poses a problem to the narrative. We've seen both Joffrey and Tommen, kids older than Rickon, have practically no say in anything because they hadn't reached the age of maturity, so is it really that different with Rickon? 

[Colonel Green]

The Stark succession might be a story line for season 7.  If Rickon is killed it might really become interesting to see who the Northern Lords would support. But even with Rickon alive this might still an issue, since Rickon is to young to rule and these aren't exactly peaceful times. 

If there was going to be a protracted succession dispute amongst the Starks and Jon was a party, I have a hard time seeing why Robb's will would have been omitted.  That's the whole basis for any claim he would have in the books.

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

I don't see Jon taking part in the fate of Winterfell's Lord if it has already been established he is:

a-  The prince who was promised, and

b - The son of Lyanna and Rhaegar

Jon will be busy organizing the defense of the rest of Westeros against the White Walkers and the army of ice zombies.

If Bran stays in the cave, which we have to assume he will for at least the time being, and Rickon is killed under 'interesting' conditions, I could see Sansa staying in Winterfell with her own loyal people to fulfill the 'there must be a Stark in Winterfell' requirement. I cannot see her agreeing to marry Littlefinger, after the hell she went through with Ramsey. Even if he claims ignorance, she's still going to be unwilling to accept anything he says for a while. She already knows he lies, why should this be any different?

Winterfell may become an island of safety as the WW come past the wall. I do agree there is something there which will prevent any of the dead inside the walls from rising up. I also think it would be poetic justice for Shaggy Dog to dispatch Ramsey. As for the other guesses, the only one I want is for somewhere along the way Arya and Nymeria to be reunited. Perhaps the Riverlands locations will give us the direwolf who walks with a shattered woman in grey with horrible scars on her face

 

[Colonel Green]

I cannot see her agreeing to marry Littlefinger, after the hell she went through with Ramsey. Even if he claims ignorance, she's still going to be unwilling to accept anything he says for a while. She already knows he lies, why should this be any different?

Not that I think she's going to marry Baelish (I don't see that he should have any leverage for that anyway; canonically, the Valemen are pro-Stark; why would they insist on her marrying some temp lord protector that they only put up with because Sansa vouched for him?), but as far as her attitude toward Littlefinger going forward, it's canonical that he didn't know about Ramsay, and I have a strong suspicion that the writers have been so adamant on that point because they want to put Sansa and LF back into roughly their book positions prior to the Jeyne Poole diversion.  Maybe not, but don't be surprised if that's the case.

[Boudica]

Yes. Whether Jon will be King or not. He will still be in the position of the power for one simple fact...army. That will give him his power.

Also when will WW attack. They can't delay that too much so they might attack next season or at least season 7. Many people in the South will simply not believe in this srories about them. They will ignorant and for some of them it will be costly. Some might realize this threat and one of the people that needs to respond is Dany. Sam and Tyrion might convince her. Sam will be in Oldtown and Dany will clash with Euron and will be dealing with certain stuff there. Season 7 will be largely focused on Dany's invasion and it could be also on WW threat in the North.

Yes I do agree, Dany invading Westeros and the White Walker part of the story does need to become more important in the last two seasons. Dany does have dragons and she has seen some magic, therefore I dont think that she would be as quick as some of the other people in Westeros to simply write off the White Walker stories. I could see something  like a focus on Dany in the South while the Starks or the North have to deal with the White Walkers in season 7. 

 

 

   As to Rickon being too young to rule that's going to be a tough one to sell on screen given that Art Parkinson is taller than both Sophie and Kit. In the       books he can still be six years old, the actor though was fourteen when season six was filming. Indeed, that might even be the reason Rickon is being     killed off on the show when he might survive in the books (GRRM has mentioned some people were dead in the series who live in the books and          some   who are alive in the series who are dead in the books so this wouldn't even be new territory).

If so, my guess would be that there's a succession crisis coming in the books over who gets to be appointed Rickon's regent until he comes of age (since he's no more than six in the books). Because they know what comes out of the crisis D&D feel that preserving that story arc is more important to the story than preserving Rickon (whose actor looks too old to be denied the throne of Winterfell) with the thinking that even the books will never actually show Rickon ruling in his own right because that would be nearly a decade after the story ended and thus something they could change without affecting the book's ending too much.

Or GRRM told them Rickon dies at this point in the story because the story needed a full succession crisis and not just one over who gets to be regent and D&D are just following the bullet points he laid out. I could see arguments either way.

My drama senses suggest the White Walkers stop along the way so we get survivors streaming into Winterfell throughout season seven and the White Walkers themselves get within eyeshot of Winterfell at the end of season seven (just after the succession crisis is resolved one way or another).

I've had a particularly disturbing and dramatic theory on how that might play out as well. Winterfell has an intact Godswood and we've seen wights explode when passing through a barrier linked to the weirwood. Similarly, despite their ancestors knowing about Wights, the Starks never burned any of the bodies they placed in Winterfell's crypts despite that seeming to be the standard funeral custom of the First Men.

So, here's my theory... throughout season seven we get building dread as survivors/refugees flee the North and arrive at Winterfell. The people at Winterfell under Jon and/or Sansa get a whole "hour of last things" as the White Walkers move into sight of Winterfell and everyone thinks they're about to die... only just when the tension is at its highest, the White Walkers and their wights march AROUND Winterfell and leave it untouched as they continue to march south.

This of course stuns everyone (in a 'oh gods, we're ALIVE!' sort of way), the same blocking magic of the weirwood tree in the North and that kept The Wall from being breached is in Winterfell as well. Then the horrible realization that they're now essentially stuck behind enemy lines as the Walkers keep marching south, who knows how many Walkers and wights are just waiting in the dark to kill anyone who tries to leave and they've got way too many people packed behind the walls to possibly feed with the provisions at hand... and that's where they're left going into season eight.

 

As far as I know the rumour about Rickon dying mostly comes from reddit, I am not sure if it is true or, I wouldn't be surprised either way. 

Aren't you perhaps mixing up the height of Art Parkinson and Isaac Hempstead Wright? I think there was a picture of Art Parkinson and Natalia Tena together in Belfast during the filming of season 6, and Art Parkinson was shorter then Natalia Tena. Of course I dont have a clue how tall she is. If Rickon does actually suddenly appear much, much older, then he might become a problem. And perhaps that in-itself might be a reason to kill him off. Having Rickon as an older character could potentially lead to all sorts of problems. It would mean that he hasn't gotten any education or strategical training in years. It would also mean that he hasn't had any sword practice or training for years. This could certainly result in a big problem for someone in his position, especially in the North. But I dont know, I guess we'll have to see how old he actually looks. 

I do really like your theory about the White Walkers moving past Winterfell. I myself have always suspected that something like that might actually happen. We know that the Wall and Winterfell was built by Brandon the Builder. It is likely that Winterfell might also be protected against the White Walkers. And it is likely that the White Walkers might know about this, or they might be able to detect it. 

(This is a bit off topic but I was just thinking we know that wights cant pass through the Wall. It would be interesting or perhaps somewhat ironically amusing if undead Jon wasn't able to enter Winterfell due to some similar spell. But obviously we already have spoilers about Jon being in Winterfell, so that is just an off topic thought).

I am not sure that the White Walkers would actually ever launch a big attack on the North. Once Winter really starts to take its toll in the North, it is properly not much different from North of the Wall. It is a big space with a few castles and a big forest. We dont really know what the agenda of the White Walkers is, but it seems likely that whatever they are looking for would be in the South rather then the North.  There are much more people in the South. We are almost at the end and we still haven't really seen a big attack from the White Walkers. Even the Hardhome attack and the attack of the Fist of the of the First men was more about the wights attacking then the actual White Walkers. 

It seems like they do have some kind of plan, perhaps they would want to go as far South as possible in an undetected fashion. Even if the Wall does break and even if they do enter into the North it does not necessarily follow that they will immediately start looking for large groups of people to attack. They could have attacked Mance's army before Mance marched to the Wall, but they did not. They might follow a similar strategy once they are actually in the North. 

Therefore they could just stay clear of Winterfell, or Winterfell could be protected in some fashion. 

 

Aside from being a bit too late to do a succession storyline next season when both the Others and Dany invade, as another poster pointed out, won't Bran be aware of LF's part in his family's demise? The teaser tells us that he knows everything that's taken place these past five seasons along with a whole bunch of other stuff including the future, so why wouldn't Bran warn his siblings in some form about LF's intentions? Of course I don't expect an answer since none of us know yet, but I hope they tackle this someway instead of ignoring it.

As for Rickon, yes he's grown a lot since we last saw him, but he has no training as KitN/LoW and is still a kid, so I'm not sure how his age poses a problem to the narrative. We've seen both Joffrey and Tommen, kids older than Rickon, have practically no say in anything because they hadn't reached the age of maturity, so is it really that different with Rickon? 

It would be really interesting if Bran could see what exactly happened to Ned and if he was able to communicate with his family somehow. Bran is obviously learning about greenseeing for some big reason. It would make sense if he could perhaps help and communicate with his family. But who knows, according to Bloodraven he was never able to communicate with the people he saw in his visions. But it would really help to connect Bran with everyone else within the story.  

These are extremely complicated times, it would really be impossible for someone like Rickon to rule in his own authority. There will have to be a regent. It does feel like there really wouldn't be a lot of time for a big succession crises within the Starks. They also likely have to meet up with Arya in season 7. We could perhaps see a minor issue for 1 or 2 episodes, but I dont really expect it to become a big story line.  

[Boudica]

If there was going to be a protracted succession dispute amongst the Starks and Jon was a party, I have a hard time seeing why Robb's will would have been omitted.  That's the whole basis for any claim he would have in the books.

I dont think you necessarily need the will to create succession issues. Westeros is experiencing extraordinary circumstances, there are wars raging throughout the Kingdom, and on top of that there will soon be dragons and White Walkers. Under these extraordinary conditions they make decisions differently. Personally I dont really think we will see a Stark succession crises, I am not sure that we will have the time for it within the story. 

But even if it is just a matter of being Rickon's regent we might see some disagreement among the Northerners. Someone like Littlefinger would clearly push to have Sansa in that position. But if we are only thinking about a regent for Rickon then Jon might be the better choice overall. He does have battle experience and training, he does understand Northern politics and he has some experience with the White Walkers. But he would also have a Wildling army which would likely count against him and he was also in the Nights Watch. Some people might feel that Sansa is a better or more natural choice as the oldest living Stark. I guess it might also depend on what happens in the battle for Winterfell.  

If it is just for the position as a regent until Rickon comes of age, then I think it would be easier for them to accept a bastard. They would obviously be much less inclined to support a bastard against a true born daughter for the position of King in the North.

But then again this is the Stark family, I think they would work out some arrangement among themselves, it is not really within their characters to try and take away power from each other. 

I don't see Jon taking part in the fate of Winterfell's Lord if it has already been established he is:

a-  The prince who was promised, and

b - The son of Lyanna and Rhaegar

Jon will be busy organizing the defense of the rest of Westeros against the White Walkers and the army of ice zombies.

If Bran stays in the cave, which we have to assume he will for at least the time being, and Rickon is killed under 'interesting' conditions, I could see Sansa staying in Winterfell with her own loyal people to fulfill the 'there must be a Stark in Winterfell' requirement. I cannot see her agreeing to marry Littlefinger, after the hell she went through with Ramsey. Even if he claims ignorance, she's still going to be unwilling to accept anything he says for a while. She already knows he lies, why should this be any different?

Winterfell may become an island of safety as the WW come past the wall. I do agree there is something there which will prevent any of the dead inside the walls from rising up. I also think it would be poetic justice for Shaggy Dog to dispatch Ramsey. As for the other guesses, the only one I want is for somewhere along the way Arya and Nymeria to be reunited. Perhaps the Riverlands locations will give us the direwolf who walks with a shattered woman in grey with horrible scars on her face

 

The big question here is, when will we actually find out about Jon's parentage. We known that we will see the Tower of Joy in episode 5 or 6, but I have a hunch that this will only confirm Jon's parentage to the viewers and to Bran. I am not sure that Jon himself or the good people of Westeros will learn about Jon's parentage anytime soon, or at least in season 6. But we'll just have to wait and see what happens. 

It would be good if Sansa was more mistrustful towards Littlefinger after her marriage to Ramsay, but again I am not entirely sure that will be the case. 

[Colonel Green]

It would be good if Sansa was more mistrustful towards Littlefinger after her marriage to Ramsay, but again I am not entirely sure that will be the case. 

I think this point is going to be unsatisfying either way.  If she just goes back to working with him like nothing changed, it makes the whole Season 5 plot even more infuriating; conversely, Sansa turning on Littlefinger because of his not knowing about Ramsay is a lame turning point for their relationship and doesn't at all address the core conflicts (granted, the show has already scrapped a lot of that).  Sansa turning on Littlefinger because he sucked at playing the game of thrones would be like Arya leaving the House of Black and White because she decided they sucked at murdering people.

[Boudica]

I think this point is going to be unsatisfying either way.  If she just goes back to working with him like nothing changed, it makes the whole Season 5 plot even more infuriating; conversely, Sansa turning on Littlefinger because of his not knowing about Ramsay is a lame turning point for their relationship and doesn't at all address the core conflicts (granted, the show has already scrapped a lot of that).  Sansa turning on Littlefinger because he sucked at playing the game of thrones would be like Arya leaving the House of Black and White because she decided they sucked at murdering people.

Lol that is a good way of explaining it. I think you might be on to something here. Hopefully Sansa can at least show that she is a bit more mistrustful of Littlefinger, that would be the best compromise.

This is partly somewhat of a problem with the character of Littlefinger in general, sometimes his actions or reactions towards him, are more of a plot convenience then actual plotting. Or perhaps he just has some of that villainous plot armor at this stage.

This is honestly an issue I see for the show and for the books. In the show we see Sansa defending Littlefinger against the Lords of the Vale. We also see her following Littlefinger's plan to marry Ramsay Bolton, and will most likely see her still trusting Littlefinger after the marriage to Ramsay.    

In both the show and the books Sansa spends a lot of time in Kings Landing she sees Littlefinger receiving rewards for his services towards the Lannisters. Littlefinger was right there when Ned was beheaded. She can see Littlefinger has a good relationship with the Lannisters, and yet somehow she has never discovered, or thought for herself that he might have played a part in betraying her father. That just seems unlikely and convenient for plot purposes. 

In the books she also overhears Littlefinger discussing his plans and murders outright, yet she never really makes a connection. 

All of these things has the effect of unfortunately making Sansa appear like a bit of an idiot at times. But that is how it goes, this is a fictional story there will always be some form of plot convenience. I think we are stuck with Littlefinger for at least two more seasons.  

[Mandzipop]

I'm inclined to think that Wintefell has a magic protection however for that to work there must be a Stark in Winterfell.

The wights can only go as far as the weather will allow them. However, this is a chicken and egg question, what comes first, the wights or the winter?

[Myself656]

Aside from being a bit too late to do a succession storyline next season when both the Others and Dany invade, as another poster pointed out, won't Bran be aware of LF's part in his family's demise? The teaser tells us that he knows everything that's taken place these past five seasons along with a whole bunch of other stuff including the future, so why wouldn't Bran warn his siblings in some form about LF's intentions? Of course I don't expect an answer since none of us know yet, but I hope they tackle this someway instead of ignoring it.

I disagree that season seven would a bit too late to have a succession storyline... the show isn't ending until at least season eight so they've got a little time IF the plot is important enough.

The reason I think it COULD be important enough to focus on comes down to one thing... We need to see Littlefinger's big push and final defeat before the series winds up and I think the succession storyline will be that event. I think that without Littlefinger's involvement any such "crisis" could have been resolved by Jon and Sansa personally with little difficulty (i.e. she's the rightful heir and he'll act as her Hand). But Littlefinger will stir the pot with the Northern Lords so that his military forces will be needed to resolve the dispute and those forces will come at a price (and you thought marrying a Frey to get across a bridge were bad terms).

Resolving such a kerfuffle in a way that undercuts Littlefinger is probably going to involve Jon getting proof of his heritage (which he will likely know through Bran, but proving it to the satisfaction of others is another matter entirely) while Sansa stalls and plays mediator. Davos (as Sansa's aide) and Bran and/or Melisandre (as Jon's spirit guide(s) in his search for proof) could both be involved in such an arc as well so it keeps most of the Northern cast rumored to survive the Battle of the Bastards involved without being something that eats up too much screen time.

And that latter bit is important because based on season six spoilers I think the Northern cast is going to be a bit ahead of the narrative going into season seven. They'll have retaken Winterfell (a relatively secure location) and the only other action going on the North is bracing for the White Walkers to reach them... which needs to be held off a bit while events in the South catch up for maximum drama.

By this I mean that based on available spoilers Dany won't even make it to Westeros until the start of season seven at the earliest and that will probably be down in Dorne with a march North to Kings Landing by the finale of season seven. Dramatically speaking I think they'll shoot for the Walkers reaching Winterfell and Dany reaching Kings Landing as parallel events... Fire is coming North and Ice is coming South and set to meet in the Riverlands in season eight for a grand finale so that means the Northern cast has a little time to breathe in a less action oriented plotline for season seven.

Having such an arc to finally take Littlefinger down in season seven also feels like it could mirror Cersei's final fall which I also think will be held off until season seven. I think season seven will be the last gasps of the political players as existential crises come to the fore. You can't bargain with a White Walker or a horde of Dothraki lead by Daeneyrs Stormborn on the back of a dragon so those who work via political manipulation and smooth words should see their stories coming to an end.

This is, of course, predicated on the theory that season eight will be the last and culminate in a final showdown between Ice and Fire in the Riverlands. If the show instead stretches to season nine or even then, then season seven is still smack dab in act two of the story and there's plenty of time for a random political plot.

* * * *

As to "Why can't Bran just warn his siblings about Littlefinger?" my answer to that is... and then what? Okay, Jon and Sansa know Littlefinger is a scumbag because Bran's warned them in a dream. Littlefinger still commands the largest armed force present (the Vale army) and without hard proof "I saw it in a dream" is not going to be enough to turn people against the man who saved their bacon at the end of the Battle of the Bastards.

If anything I'd expect such a warning to be the inciting incident that keeps Jon and/or Sansa from just accepting the situation Littlefinger stirs up at face value. But they still have to navigate through it using proof and arguments that aren't based on "my brother the tree told me in a dream."

Given the rather dubious nature of consent in Westeros, I could see a situation develop where Sansa is very nearly forced to choose someone as her husband to satisfy the situation Littlefinger has put into motion and Littlefinger will of course have positioned himself to be the best of a series of bad options... at that point only a "takes a third option" development could short-circuit Littlefinger's plans; Jon using proof that he is not Ned's son to invalidate his claim for example.

 

It seems like they do have some kind of plan, perhaps they would want to go as far South as possible in an undetected fashion. Even if the Wall does break and even if they do enter into the North it does not necessarily follow that they will immediately start looking for large groups of people to attack. They could have attacked Mance's army before Mance marched to the Wall, but they did not. They might follow a similar strategy once they are actually in the North. 

What the White Walkers want is indeed the $64,000 question, because I don't believe GRRM created them to be simply an implacable force of evil and death. That's far too simplistic for his narrative. They have a goal... or at the very least something spurred them to action... but we have no idea what.

My personal theory is that our resolution isn't going to be some sort of Jon and Dany team up and smash the evil monsters from the North. That's way too simplistic. I think Dany is expressly being set up as the opposite number of the White Walkers (I do think she's Azor Ahai reborn who is NOT the same as the Prince Who Was Promised)... both dangerous and destructive in their own way and doom for everyone with either side were to be victorious.

Instead I think we're headed more for a "union of opposites/restoration of the balance" ending mediated by Jon as the balance of ice and fire (i.e. he is both of Stark/First Men and Targaryan/Valerian blood... a metaphorical Song of Ice and Fire) in large part because such a personal/mythical resolution would be something far easier to portray using GRRM's chosen one character per chapter third-person limited narrative structure. Its also something much easier to present on a television budget than a massive Lord of the Rings scale battle of tens of thousands.

If true that means the Walkers are specifically headed south after being content to live north of The Wall because something has thrown off the balance. Given how long it might have taken for them to mobilize it could even be some action dating back to Robert's Rebellion. Maybe it was the Targaryans being nearly wiped out (the Targs as a bloodline of fire opposite the White Walkers)... maybe it was just the cosmological event of the comet coming back around and they started shaking off their sleep at the first stirrings of magic returning (i.e. the notion that magic is returning because dragons are returning is reversed... dragons and white walkers are only returning because magic has already returned).

I expect the answer to that won't come until late in the final season... that the Walker's motivations (and origin?) will be the last act twist that pushes the final resolution of the entire series.

 

The big question here is, when will we actually find out about Jon's parentage. We known that we will see the Tower of Joy in episode 5 or 6, but I have a hunch that this will only confirm Jon's parentage to the viewers and to Bran. I am not sure that Jon himself or the good people of Westeros will learn about Jon's parentage anytime soon, or at least in season 6. But we'll just have to wait and see what happens. 

It would be good if Sansa was more mistrustful towards Littlefinger after her marriage to Ramsay, but again I am not entirely sure that will be the case. 

I think, as you suggested, WE will learn Jon's heritage this coming season, but my guess is that his heritage becoming known publically and definitively won't come until season seven as it will be a big factor in defusing Littlefinger's manufactured Northern Succession Crisis.

Revealing himself as Jon Targaryan lessons his claim to the throne of Winterfell because succession runs through Ned's bloodline once he had children of his own. By revealing himself to not be Ned's son, but his nephew greatly reduces his claim relative to Sansa. They could always legitimize Ned's bastard son and claim that pushed him ahead of Sansa in terms of succession. That trick doesn't work with a nephew who might not even be a bastard, but a trueborn king in hiding.

Basically Jon's heritage being publically revealed becomes the "take a third option" resolution to the succession crisis that I mentioned in that it shuts down the conflict Littlefinger hoped to profit from. Throw in a little proof of him trying to rile the Lords against Sansa to force her hand in marriage to him and you've got an easy treason case and Sansa could then have the Titan killed at Winterfell as a book prophecy foretold.

[Masha]

There has been some speculation that Jon would be resurrected in the 5th or 6th episode because that is when the Tower of Joy scene will be shown. But it really seems like there will be too much for Jon to accomplish in 3 or 4 episodes before the big battle in episode 9, I think Jon would have to be resurrected quite early. It would also become jarring to the audience if they just delayed the inevitable for too long. It would simply not be compelling television to have Ghost running around on screen for 5 or 6 episodes. 

 

 

Thats what Walking Dead did with Glen, and they got pummeled by both critics and fans alike because they prolonged the revelation for so long it stopped making sense within the story and felt like just trolling fans storyline, and they are still smarting from all criticism, like they were trying outdo GOT's "Is Jon Snow really dead?" phenomena.

Considering that S6 was filmed about that time when WD was airing and D&D saw that what happened, they might do the smart thing and not delay the revelation. I predict that we will find out within first 2 episodes, 3 max.

As for Rickon, frankly speaking he has very little chance in surviving in the books (unless he is the only one left) and if he dies in the books (even if at the end of the last one), I suspect D&D have little enough patience in keeping him alive after this season, he is small enough presence already. His only reason for continued presence is Natalia Tena and D&D love of her.

 

[Masha]

I think this point is going to be unsatisfying either way.  If she just goes back to working with him like nothing changed, it makes the whole Season 5 plot even more infuriating; conversely, Sansa turning on Littlefinger because of his not knowing about Ramsay is a lame turning point for their relationship and doesn't at all address the core conflicts (granted, the show has already scrapped a lot of that).  Sansa turning on Littlefinger because he sucked at playing the game of thrones would be like Arya leaving the House of Black and White because she decided they sucked at murdering people.

I just hope they won't try to push Sansa back to her Vale storyline, that ship had long sailed.

I would accept her working with Littlefinger again while kind of being upset at him for tricking her into this ordeal without vetting Ramsey first and then keeping him at arms length, allying with him for his Vale forces and political mindset, just using him.

I, and most fans I think, would not accept Sansa unthinkingly trusting Littlefinger again and following him to another "marriage" either with him or "Harry the Heir " equivalent. I would accept Littlefinger arranging a marriage alliance for Robyn with Sansa, or her being 100% forced by circumstances (and not "her choice") basically "save your home" or "save your brothers" only way to "win the war"

Also, I hope D&D realizes that have Sansa get into another forced or abusive relationship will not fly with either fans or critics and make little artistic sense in developing the character.

[Myself656]

Considering that S6 was filmed about that time when WD was airing and D&D saw that what happened, they might do the smart thing and not delay the revelation. I predict that we will find out within first 2 episodes, 3 max.

As for Rickon, frankly speaking he has very little chance in surviving in the books (unless he is the only one left) and if he dies in the books (even if at the end of the last one), I suspect D&D have little enough patience in keeping him alive after this season, he is small enough presence already. His only reason for continued presence is Natalia Tena and D&D love of her.

I think Jon will be resurrected at the very end of episode one and that his resurrection and the revelation of his heritage do not have to be narratively linked in the same episode. Indeed, I could easily see the first being used to lead to the second.

If, as rumors suggest, both Ghost (i.e. potential warging/ice magic) and Melisandre (Last Kiss/fire magic) are involved in his resurrection that might be something unique enough that it creates the equivalent of a mystical "PING." Sure, people have been brought back using the Last Kiss before and others have lived a second life by warging into their totem animal, but this could be the first time the two have ever coincided to restore both body and soul completely.

This supernatural event might even be something that Bloodraven and/or Bran sense and makes them go "What's going on here?" and cause them to then use the greenseer magic to look back into the past in order to figure out what is so important about Jon Snow that the forces of both Ice and Fire were involved in his resurrection. This in turn leads us over the course of several episodes to Bran experiencing various visions of the past that culminate with the Tower of Joy and the revelation that Jon is the child of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) and The Prince That Was Promised (with perhaps an actual explanation of the prophecy by Bloodraven because just the thought of Max Von Sydow explaining some ancient and all important prophecy gives me goosebumps).

That would be a way to deliver the immediate importance of Jon's resurrection, while at the same time adding a dramatic mystery into the mix that forms the backbone of Bran's season six arc.

And Yeah... Rickon has been Dead Stark Walking for quite some time. I've previously described him as the "backup Stark" and that backup plans always fail in act three. If D&D want to keep Natalia Tena around though she could always become Sansa's adviser and protector (under the cover of being a handmaiden) either before or immediately after Rickon dies. Perhaps Rickon asks Osha to watch over Sansa because he fears for her safety with Ramsey after her... which is what ends up leaving Rickon relatively undefended and easier to kill when the time comes.

Hmmm... a bit back in the thread people were discussing how awful it would be to lose Tormund because he was the face of the Wildlings. But Osha was the original face of the Wildlings all the way back in season one in many ways and if, as the spoilers suggest, most of the Wildling warriors are killed during the Battle of the Bastards then the choice might have been made to use Osha as a slightly less martial face of the Wildlings (she's still a kickass warrior, but in a less obvious way than Tormund was).

Osha would also be a VERY interesting opposite number to Melisandre as well... probably even more distrustful of her than even Tormund has been. I could certainly see a setup with Jon having Davos as an advisor/confidante and Sansa having Osha with Littlefinger as the spoiler/political opponent in the Northern story heading out of season six and into season seven (I see Melisandre dying by Davos' hand at the end of season six right after the Bolton banners drop because he's learned that she burned Shireen).

I just hope they won't try to push Sansa back to her Vale storyline, that ship had long sailed.

I don't think they will. I think putting Sansa into the Jeyne Poole role in S5 was a calculated risk because GRRM's bulletpoints for the last books indicated that the Vale storyline was just a big holding action to give those characters something to do while getting the rest of the field into position. Book readers were outraged, but the alternative was to basically sideline Sophie for a season (which they'd already done with Bran's storyline) while hiring a brand new actress to primarily interact with the most unlikable characters in the series. This approach gave us a more established character to care about and gave both Sophie and the Bolton actors more primary characters to interact with (the lack of which has been the bane of a lot of the characters... Arya and Brienne/Pod got a lot less interesting in s5 for a pretty similar reason).

I think another part of the decision though was the D&D wanted Sansa up North sooner than having her wait for the Vale armies (which is probably how she'll get there in the books) would have allowed. Presuming she heads North as the S5 anvils dropped indicated (there was no other reason for Ramsey to share the information that Jon had become Lord Commander than for the plot plot of giving Sansa someplace explicit to run to where she could expect to be safe when the time came for her to flee) it probably gives her ten extra episodes of interacting with various Northern characters than she would have had if she'd not arrived until the Vale armies did.

Regardless I do think the Vale storyline has sailed and, if they need to stall out her story they'll just park her in Jon's orbit and showcase her ease around and closeness to Jon (or lack thereof) as setup for what happens once Rickon is killed off. My hunch is they'll start off fairly formal, grow closer in a measured way over the course of the season and then Rickon's death will probably put a very "us vs. the world" mindset into play with them (in a familial rather than romantic sense) to close out season six.

[Colonel Green]

In both the show and the books Sansa spends a lot of time in Kings Landing she sees Littlefinger receiving rewards for his services towards the Lannisters. Littlefinger was right there when Ned was beheaded. She can see Littlefinger has a good relationship with the Lannisters, and yet somehow she has never discovered, or thought for herself that he might have played a part in betraying her father. That just seems unlikely and convenient for plot purposes. 

As far as the first goes, she knows Littlefinger worked for the Lannisters, and in that sense, worked against her dad.  She has no reason to think Ned as 'betrayed' by anyone in particular; now, it may be contrived that his actions aren't court gossip, but that's not really a matter of Sansa not doing something.

[Lord Friendzone]

I think Jon will be resurrected at the very end of episode one and that his resurrection and the revelation of his heritage do not have to be narratively linked in the same episode. Indeed, I could easily see the first being used to lead to the second.

I think it will be later than that. I would say ep. 3 at the best to leave room to deal with post FTW. Mel needs some help or guidance to help Jon, otherwise she has no need from her perspective to help him right now. She need to figured it out how to do it and where. Of course people at NW will be less than happy with her, Davos is pretty pissed too and Tormund with Wildlings well she burned their king. They don't need to be linked together...TOJ and resurrection can happen separately.

If, as rumors suggest, both Ghost (i.e. potential warging/ice magic) and Melisandre (Last Kiss/fire magic) are involved in his resurrection that might be something unique enough that it creates the equivalent of a mystical "PING." Sure, people have been brought back using the Last Kiss before and others have lived a second life by warging into their totem animal, but this could be the first time the two have ever coincided to restore both body and soul completely.

As Ice and Fire. Yes, the spoiler said that Ghost and Mel are involved, but hey never say how. It might be that some sacrifice is required in this case, but we'll see.

This supernatural event might even be something that Bloodraven and/or Bran sense and makes them go "What's going on here?" and cause them to then use the greenseer magic to look back into the past in order to figure out what is so important about Jon Snow that the forces of both Ice and Fire were involved in his resurrection. This in turn leads us over the course of several episodes to Bran experiencing various visions of the past that culminate with the Tower of Joy and the revelation that Jon is the child of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) and The Prince That Was Promised (with perhaps an actual explanation of the prophecy by Bloodraven because just the thought of Max Von Sydow explaining some ancient and all important prophecy gives me goosebumps).

Hmmm... a bit back in the thread people were discussing how awful it would be to lose Tormund because he was the face of the Wildlings. But Osha was the original face of the Wildlings all the way back in season one in many ways and if, as the spoilers suggest, most of the Wildling warriors are killed during the Battle of the Bastards then the choice might have been made to use Osha as a slightly less martial face of the Wildlings (she's still a kickass warrior, but in a less obvious way than Tormund was).

Or they simply eliminate Wildlinga altogther or introduce another character. They might not be needed if the rumours are true. It would be shame tro lose Tormund or Wun Wun.

Osha would also be a VERY interesting opposite number to Melisandre as well... probably even more distrustful of her than even Tormund has been. I could certainly see a setup with Jon having Davos as an advisor/confidante and Sansa having Osha with Littlefinger as the spoiler/political opponent in the Northern story heading out of season six and into season seven (I see Melisandre dying by Davos' hand at the end of season six right after the Bolton banners drop because he's learned that she burned Shireen).

I think you're a bit of a overestimate Osha's role. She's important for Rickon...for sure. Jon will probably have Davos and Mel that is enough and of course for the time being if the rumours are true Tormund. As for Mel dying...Davos or Arya. Remember they said that they'll meet again somewhere down the road.

I think another part of the decision though was the D&D wanted Sansa up North sooner than having her wait for the Vale armies (which is probably how she'll get there in the books) would have allowed. Presuming she heads North as the S5 anvils dropped indicated (there was no other reason for Ramsey to share the information that Jon had become Lord Commander than for the plot plot of giving Sansa someplace explicit to run to where she could expect to be safe when the time came for her to flee) it probably gives her ten extra episodes of interacting with various Northern characters than she would have had if she'd not arrived until the Vale armies did.

Regardless I do think the Vale storyline has sailed and, if they need to stall out her story they'll just park her in Jon's orbit and showcase her ease around and closeness to Jon (or lack thereof) as setup for what happens once Rickon is killed off. My hunch is they'll start off fairly formal, grow closer in a measured way over the course of the season and then Rickon's death will probably put a very "us vs. the world" mindset into play with them (in a familial rather than romantic sense) to close out season six.

Sansa arc is described by Liam as amazing. It depends what you think of as amazing...she might be on her own. It's clear that she's heading to Castle Black, but she'll not get there.

 

[Dolorous Gabe]

On the discussion about how RIckon may be brought back only to be killed off like Myrcella was, they are both loose ends for the show; unimportant characters who are merely a complication for the showrunners.

I suspect that had D&D known exactly how their version of the story would be progressing now right from the start they may have cut Rickon altogether and perhaps have had Tyrion send Myrcella somewhere other than Dorne.

Forethought is too often lacking.