Star Wars Episode VII THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

[dooog]

 

Thirdly, as you mentioned Luke - we never see him getting any more lightsaber training after his work with the remote in ANH. During his training with Yoda, there's no real suggestion that Yoda spent much time on saber combat, etc.

 

To be fair, just because it isn't explicitly shown in ESB, (when Luke is only beginning his training) it doesn't mean he wasn't trained with a lightsaber. Yoda keeps telling him he has to face Vader so it's safe to assume.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

To be fair, just because it isn't explicitly shown in ESB, (when Luke is only beginning his training) it doesn't mean he wasn't trained with a lightsaber. Yoda keeps telling him he has to face Vader so it's safe to assume.

We're gonna need a montage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9Uwhjlog8

 

[ab aeterno]

To be fair, just because it isn't explicitly shown in ESB, (when Luke is only beginning his training) it doesn't mean he wasn't trained with a lightsaber. Yoda keeps telling him he has to face Vader so it's safe to assume.

I wouldn't say it's safe to assume, to be honest. Yoda's whole point is that being a Jedi isn't about being a warrior, and that he shouldn't be rushing to confront Vader. -

"I don't think so. I'm looking for a great warrior."

"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great."

And there wasn't really any indicator prior to the prequels that Yoda used a lightsaber at all.

It would make sense that he had at least some pointers on lightsaber combat, but it's also entirely plausible that he didn't. Even when he goes into the cave to confront his fears/Vader, Yoda tells him to leave his saber behind, indicating that the training is about himself and the force, not his ability to fight.

 

 

[dooog]

I wouldn't say it's safe to assume, to be honest. Yoda's whole point is that being a Jedi isn't about being a warrior, and that he shouldn't be rushing to confront Vader. -

"I don't think so. I'm looking for a great warrior."

"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great."

And there wasn't really any indicator prior to the prequels that Yoda used a lightsaber at all.

It would make sense that he had at least some pointers on lightsaber combat, but it's also entirely plausible that he didn't. Even when he goes into the cave to confront his fears/Vader, Yoda tells him to leave his saber behind, indicating that the training is about himself and the force, not his ability to fight.

 

 

In ESB Yoda doesn't want him to pursue Vader because he isn't ready. Most of his training then takes place in between ESB and ROTJ. In ROTJ  both Yoda and Obi Wan tell him he must face Vader or "the Emperor has already won"  It's safe to assume he would have taught him fighting forms and instructed him on how to make a new lightsaber.

[HexMachina]

Good point about Ren. He never finished his own training, which lessens the gap between him and Rey further. Thinking back on the various occasions where he uses his lightsaber, it always seems to be more about brute force and anger than actual skill. Clearly Snoke (ugh, that name  ) has a lot to do to finish his training. 

Also agree about the destroyed planets. Probably the weakest part of the film in terms of writing/plot.

ETA: And another small point, is there a reason we didn't get Lando, even just making an appearance? The garden gnome thing showed up, so I expected him to 

[ab aeterno]

In ESB Yoda doesn't want him to pursue Vader because he isn't ready. Most of his training then takes place in between ESB and ROTJ. In ROTJ  both Yoda and Obi Wan tell him he must face Vader or "the Emperor has already won"  It's safe to assume he would have taught him fighting forms and instructed him on how to make a new lightsaber.

I'm not sure I agree. I believe that Luke isn't supposed to return to Dagobah after ESB for about a year (when he returns during RotJ,) which is why he tells R2 that he has a promise to keep to an old friend - he'd told Yoda that he would return - and the line wouldn't really make sense if he'd just spent the last year training with Yoda.

It's true that Yoda doesn't want him to fight Vader because he isn't ready, but even in RotJ, he doesn't defeat Vader with his lightsaber, in fact, his anger nearly leads him to turn to the dark side, and he throws his lightsaber down. Yoda not only never mentions actual combat, but whenever fighting is brought up at all, Yoda is fairly dismissive. 

So again, while I think it would make sense for him to have had instruction in lightsaber combat, there's plenty of reason to question whether he did or not. I wouldn't call it a safe assumption.

 

Also it's worth noting that Luke already has a new lightsaber before he returns to Dagobah, and Vader attributes the lightsaber building to Luke, which would seem a bit of a pointless line to include if Yoda had basically just told him how to do it.

[polishgenius]

My main irritation: JJ Abrams is so bad at keeping an idea of the scale of space. Even worse than Star Trek for this and that was bad; the OT and PT both handwaved travel but at least it felt like things were far apart. The Big Death Star was meant to be firing between systems, right? But that didn't seem clear at all and even if it was, the way it was done is a stupid idea. It looked cool but nothing about that was executed well in any way at all. And the journeys between systems; I mean, the alliance hop into some X-Wings and launch an attack on the First Order despite that being described as a system 'a long way from here', and have full real-time communication with home base the whole way.

And yet at the same time we're supposed to believe that there was only one extant map of the galaxy in  the galaxy? Oh, good grief.

Other than that, though, I mostly enjoyed it. I wasn't very impressed by the lightsaber action (and they sounded wrong- not deep enough in the hum, although that might have been the cinema I was in), but the rest of the action was solid, the character work decent enough, the cast charismatic and had chemistry, the locations past Nottooine were nice.
I didn't mind that Ren was a bit pathetic and teeny. That was clearly the aim, nothing to do with a bad performance from Driver, and it made him a different sort of threat, a less powerful but more unstable villain.

I did mind that they didn't tell us who Rey's family is. I'm fairly sure it's Luke - it being Han and Leia's daughter would be too unbelievable, unless Luke also wiped all of their memories of her they'd at least surely have mentioned another lost child. But whoever it is, we're gonna get a 'No, I Am Your Relative' moment in film 2 and I'm really not up for that.

Fynn and Rey's relationship was great, though. Real chemistry and a believable friendship.

Even though the sequence itself was naff, I want to know more about those guys who were raiding Han's ship, just coz their outfits were pretty cool. Also, Han chucking one of them to the monsters was a nice note for the 'Han shot first' crowd.

I'm glad that Abrams isn't doing the next one, but I think he justified the decision to have him do this one.

[dooog]

I'm not sure I agree. I believe that Luke isn't supposed to return to Dagobah after ESB for about a year (when he returns during RotJ,) which is why he tells R2 that he has a promise to keep to an old friend - he'd told Yoda that he would return - and the line wouldn't really make sense if he'd just spent the last year training with Yoda.

It's true that Yoda doesn't want him to fight Vader because he isn't ready, but even in RotJ, he doesn't defeat Vader with his lightsaber, in fact, his anger nearly leads him to turn to the dark side, and he throws his lightsaber down. Yoda not only never mentions actual combat, but whenever fighting is brought up at all, Yoda is fairly dismissive. 

So again, while I think it would make sense for him to have had instruction in lightsaber combat, there's plenty of reason to question whether he did or not. I wouldn't call it a safe assumption.

 

Also it's worth noting that Luke already has a new lightsaber before he returns to Dagobah, and Vader attributes the lightsaber building to Luke, which would seem a bit of a pointless line to include if Yoda had basically just told him how to do it.

I suppose it comes down to whether or not Luke returns to Dagobah in between 5 & 6. I always assumed he had, what with his new zen-like demeanor and affinity with the force. Last time we see him, Yoda is pleading with Luke not to go to Cloud city telling him he's not yet ready, in ROTJ he says he's taught him everything he can, so I thought it was implying further training off-screen.

[lady narcissa]

Can someone who has seen the movie clarify who the hooded gloved person seen from behind with R2D2 in the trailer is?  Is it Luke?  Rey?  Someone else?  Or actually not a scene included in the movie?

[dooog]

Can someone who has seen the movie clarify who the hooded gloved person seen from behind with R2D2 in the trailer is?  Is it Luke?  Rey?  Someone else?  Or actually not a scene included in the movie?

Luke in a force vision

[Arkash]

Speaking of that vision.

Rey's probably a Skywalker (well, that's almost certain), but I do wonder if her reaction when coming in contact with the lightsaber was because (as some theories suggest) she had flashes of erased memories of training, or because whatever residue of the Force of the weapon's previous owners were calling to her... Even though, timewise, it doesnt make sense, I liked the theory that she was Vader's daughter (through whatever experiment he could have made to get an apprentice)... but that's probably too much of a stretch. She's probably just Luke's daughter. ^^

[Arataniello]

Just back from the first show here.  Whoops and yells of sheer exuberance at the appearance of the Star Wars logo at the beginning, and at the appearance of every returning character (including the Millennium Falcon).

The plot was definitely was too similar to ANH, and so obviously like Episode IV - droid with vital plans, get said plans to the good guys, big weapon for the bad guys with one weakness, plucky fighters attack said weakness for victory at the last moment before their base is annihilated.  

Thought the final lightsaber fight with Rey and Ren was great - miles better than any of those ridiculous CGI ones in Eps I, II and III.  Eager to hear the rationale for Finn being able to wield a lightsaber so readily.

Chewie and Han great in every scene together.  Any scene with Leia in it seemed rather bad.  Agree that Captain Phasma  was a complete non-event - after being described as a 'great female character' by all and sundry during the press junkets for the film, all she did was wander around in her shiny armor.  Domhall Gleeson was like a pantomime villain.  Snoke seemingly is the SW universe equivalent of the Wizard of Oz.

Glaring plotholes - laws of physics seemingly ignored at will when it comes to Starkiller Base powering up and firing.  Po Dameron's escape from Jammu - not explained at all (?).  Stormtroopers in troop carriers entering a planet's atmosphere apparently can just stay standing without suffering significant turbulence.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I'm just getting back from the theater. I really dug the movie. I don't think there was a bad performance in the film. I'm thinking Kylo Ren is swerving us all. I think he's well educated about Vader's path and wants to follow it, for the most part, to the letter. I think he's planning to double cross Snoke.

[lady narcissa]

Luke in a force vision

Thank you

[HokieStone]

Ok, just back from the theatre, and I'm going to post my initial impressions before reading any of the thread (partly because if I take the time to read it, there may be 3 more pages added before I'm done).

Consensus among reviewers seems to be that it's far better than the prequels, and right in line with the OT.  I'm not so sure.  Is it better than the prequels?  Yes, by virtue of better acting alone - although Adam Driver didn't particularly wow me - Kylo Ren is no Darth Vader, that's for sure (although maybe that's the point).  In any case, I find myself having a similar gut feeling to when I first saw Episode 1 - some cool stuff, but some disappointment/frustration as well.

Let me rattle off some of my frustration (some are nitpicks for sure)

- Starkiller Base.  Really...did we need a Death Star (and yes, that's what it is).  And the whole fire across the galaxy to destroy a distant planet, which people on yet another planet can see - I know it's Star Wars...but that's eye rolling.

- General Hux is way too young.  Compared Peter Cushing as Grand Moff Tarkin - absolutely no comparison.

- Rey being able to do Force things with absolutely no training - the mind control of the Stormtrooper mainly, but also being able to fight with a lightsaber against a foe who has at least some training and experience.  Same question for Finn in terms of lightsaber combat.

- Han Solo's death.  I know it's a pivotal moment.  And I know it's nostalgia speaking - but I don't like it.  And some of this has to do with the almost complete absence of Luke.  I feel cheated - I'm happy to transition over to the new heroes...but I wanted to see Han, Luke and Leia together one more time. 

- Lack of Luke.  I know a lot of people love Han, but Luke has always been my favorite character.  And based off of rumors, I was expecting him to not be in much of the movie.  But that little?  I suppose we'll see him a lot more in the next episode(s). 

- Lack of R2 and C-3PO.  I suspect we'll see them more next episode(s).  The reveal of R2 felt clumsy - he's stored in a corner, under a tarp, really?

- Carrie Fisher - not bad, but not great. I saw a few glimpses of the old Leia in there, but it seemed a bit of a struggle.

- Some of the humor felt forced/out of place.  Of particular note was Poe first encountering Kylo Ren - "Do you talk first, or do I?  It's really hard to understand you with that mask."  Felt like something out of Firefly, not Star Wars.

- Han and his using the bowcaster, and his "Wow, I like this".  Let Chewie use his weapon for crying out loud.  And in 30+ years of hanging out with Chewie, you were really that unfamiliar with the bowcaster?

Now, some of the things I liked -

- All of the new heroes - I look forward to seeing where Rey, Poe and Finn go from here.  BB-8 was as good as advertised (though R2 is still my favorite).

- Harrison Ford as Han Solo - wow.  Ford as old Han Solo is light years (pun intended) better than Ford as old Indiana Jones.  This was Han Solo, back on the big screen, no doubt.

- New background characters - Maz Kanata, the pirates who confronted Han - this felt like the Star Wars universe - populated by various aliens/groups.etc. 

- Special effects were by and large great.  For all the talk of practical effects, there was a fair amount of CGI as well, and by and large it worked well.

- I liked Kylo Ren's new force power of being able to pause a blaster bolt in mid air.

And of course, the obligatory questions

- Who is Rey's family?  Obvious answer is that she's Luke's daughter.  We'll see.

- Are there other Jedi?  Han (or Leia) mentioned that he began training a new order of Jedi, but then walked way after Kylo Ren turned to the dark side.  What about any others that he started training.

- Who was Max von Sydow's character?

- C-3PO's red arm?  He sort of clumsily referred to it, but no background on it.

- Is Finn force sensitive at all?

- I'd like to know more about the Stormtrooper training process - looks like they steal babies.  There was an interesting comment from one of the bad guys (Snoke?  Hux?) about using clones instead.

- Curious about Snoke (terrible name notwithstanding).  Is he really that gigantic, or is he just projected that way?

- Ready to see the Blu-Ray and slow down Rey's vision.  Seems like there was a lot in there that went by fast.

- I'd like to know how Anakin's/Luke's saber was found (from Cloud City, I guess).  I'm hoping they'll touch on that, as Han asked "How'd you get this", and Maz replied along the lines of "That's a long story".

- I'd like to know more about the political dynamic of the galaxy.  It seems that the New Republic and the Resistance are separate.  The New Republic perhaps the government for some portion of the galaxy...and the Resistance is just operating within First Order space?

[Mark Antony]

Worst sequence in the movie. Should have cut that and spent the allotted time developing a couple of other characters. 

+1 easily the worst part 

Just got back. I enjoyed it. Thought Kylo was just perfect. The chemistry between Finn/Rey and Poe/Finn were both top notch. Oscar Isaac is a national treasure. 

The story definitely borrows too much from ANH but if I typed out most of my other issues I feel like they'd be nit picks. They played it safe for sure but it's a solid start. 

[Jabronius Maximus]

I was also wondering about Finn and the force. The movie seemed to leave it unanswered. But he had some weird interactions with Kylo on Jakku - like knowing Kylo was near without even seeing his ship, and Kylo singling out Finn despite the fact he was in his armor. So there may be something there. Then again he just turned out to be a glorified sidekick. 

Story wise, I think he should be Force sensitive. Otherwise imo his role is reduced to that of a goofy sidekick. Maybe it was just the marketing, but I was expecting a major player in the trilogy alongside Rey, Kylo and Snoke (and a major player should be Force sensitive imo). In any event, he was just sliced across the back, so he won't really have any kind of role for a little while. 

[karaddin]

I took Ren stopping the blaster bolt to show his potential was massive, but he's super erratic and uncontrolled so didn't live up to it.

With Rey I'm unsure if she has prior training or was fully empowered by the force in a way we haven't seen before - the force is awakening after all, through her seems the main way. I also thought the children screaming when she found the saber was Anakin killing the younglings, she was getting the history off it, but I could be misreading that.

[Joe Pesci]

Overall, I liked it well enough, but the pace was really plodding along for the first half plus of the film. I expected a little more from Hux and Phasma, but I get this was more an introduction to the characters and the focus was needed elsewhere (Han/Finn/Rey). There were things that I would have liked to have seen explained better but I'm assuming that will come either in Ep VIII or more likely in books/comics. I'll see it again next week probably, and expect I will like it more on another viewing.

 

[The Human Abstract]

I'm going to just put this out there, since I see a bunch of surprisingly mediocre reviews on this thread.  The nostalgia is strong here I think.  

It's probably the best Star Wars film ever.  Maybe not in terms of importance, but please.  The acting is the best, the visuals are the best, the dialogue oscillates between cheesy and witty in ESB fashion at worst.  The action is the best.  The pacing is the best (I think we've actually conveniently forgotten the OT pacing).  The characters are terrific.  The villain may not be as classic, but he's more human and is interesting to me.  

I too was disappointed that the BIG BAD BASE plot was back again.  It was probably the worst part for me.  Almost comical.  Also, I felt maybe the tension could've been better in the "space" (really atmopsheric) battle, but there was just so much damn action there.  

I am very pleased.  A fine, fine reboot with just enough mysteries to keep me really excited.  And characters that were passed that torch that I am really interested in.