Star Wars Episode VII THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

[Mark Antony]

+ Whole First Order Nazi symbolism and show off

That was one of the weaker scenes for me, it was so over the top it kinda took me out of the movie for a sec. I surprisingly thought Gleeson who I really like was completely miscast.

[Lord Varys]

"All the Star Wars sequels that were written," isn't the same thing as "all the Star Wars sequels that are possible." Sure, it's a shame losing some of the better EU stuff, but the EU was also full of a huge amount of crap. It's time to move on from it.

Well, if you consider this version of a continuation of Star Wars a very good story, you are welcome to it.

I for one won't 'move' to this new continuity in any meaningful sense. Yes, I most likely will watch the new movies, but I see no reason to spend money or effort to buy, read, or learn anything about this new stuff, and I most certainly won't invest any emotion in all of that. I'm an old man now, and I've better things to do than to actually make an effort to get accustomed to this new 'canon'.

But that is not really the issue with the new movie. I actually expected a (reasonably) bad sequel to the OT. I did not expect to see another version of ANH - and most likely a new version of the OT in the trilogy - when I watched this movie. I honestly thought since they were not making a reboot they would actually have a new story to tell.

[The King in Black]

That was one of the weaker scenes for me, it was so over the top it kinda took me out of the movie for a sec. I surprisingly thought Gleeson who I really like was completely miscast.

The only explanation I could think of for his presence is that he really wanted to be associated with Star Wars ( besides $$$ of course). As for the character, I suppose we'll 'Find out in Ep. 8 !' 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ok, so I enjoyed the movie overall, exept for the last 20 minutes, - really from Han Solo's death onwards, which was dramatic and potentially well done in its own right, but which they did not capitlize on to end the movie properly.

In short, Kylo Ren is built up as a menacing villain, but either we are in an era of lesser quality Dark Jedi, or else this Rey character is already more skilled than Obi Wan was as a trained Jedi Knight.

After killing Solo, Ren is established as a very credible Dark Jedi villain, only for a totally untrained girl to defeat him? That diminishes his stature tremendously, and basically wastes him as a villain, immediately after sacrificing the life of Han Solo himself to establish his credentials in the first place.

Such a weak ending.

The dramatic option would have been, in the middle of that fight in the snow, when Ren was trying to summon the lightsaber to him, and it was resisting his pull, it should suddenly have flown through the air - and into the waiting robotic hand of Luke Skywalker. THAT would have been dramatic and awe-inspiring. For Luke to then take him apart.

But for a totally untrained girl to do that, that is just wrong.

All I can deduce is that Kylo Ren is not 10% the Dark Force user that Darth Maul was. So I guess we are in an era of low power Force users. Because Qui-Gon Jinn as a trained Jedi Knight could not even do to Darth Maul - the least of Palpatine's apprentices - what the untrained scavenger did to Kylo Ren.

That ending rips the whole movie apart, in my view.

[The King in Black]

And then there's the obvious 'Maybe this girl who's story sounds totally unconvincing isn't untrained after all !' implication. She was clearly mind wiped and was at some point trained alongside kylo under Luke.

[Free Northman Reborn]

And then there's the obvious 'Maybe this girl who's story sounds totally unconvincing isn't untrained after all !' implication. She was clearly mind wiped and was at some point trained alongside kylo under Luke.

Well, the only explanation I could come up with for her sudden ability to mind control the Stormtrooper, use telekenises on a lightsabre more strongly than Kylo Ren, and being able to defeat a Dark Jedi in light sabre combat, was that Luke was channeling himself through her from his monastary on the island throughout the movie.

In other words, it was Luke doing all of those things remotely, and not Rey the Scavenger. Otherwise there is no way it makes sense.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Also, a problem with this movie is that it ended way too positively for the good guys. If the Death Star Supreme is destroyed, and Kylo Ren is whipped like a dog by less than a novice, the need to find Luke Skywalker is greatly diminished.

 

 

[polishgenius]

In other words, it was Luke doing all of those things remotely, and not Rey the Scavenger. Otherwise there is no way it makes sense.

 

Dude, King in Black just told you another way it would make sense.

[Relic]

Look, the only way a GIRL can beat a MAN is if another MAN is mind controlling her. Duh. 

[Red Tiger]

I thought Gleeson was good, not great but good. He was cast to be a military dick with genocidal ideas and he brought this across, I could easily picture him as a descendant of Hitler.

Compare him in this to his role in Ex Machina.

[Ran]

Speaking of Hux, Linda noted that all the First Order seemed quite young compared to their counterparts in the OT. Assuming that is deliberate, it's another sign of the First Order being sort of a cult formed in emulation of the Empire and not actually a direct splinter of it. "Supreme Leader" Snoke (terrible name, I agree) may have co-opted the accoutrements of the Empire to draw in people... and may also have built up his forces by indoctrinating children rather than recruiting adults.

[red snow]

And then there's the obvious 'Maybe this girl who's story sounds totally unconvincing isn't untrained after all !' implication. She was clearly mind wiped and was at some point trained alongside kylo under Luke.

Yeah, Chewie and Leia were really cheery about it. As were the several billion wiped out by the super laser. The villains didn't do too badly overall - although the financial cost of losing a cannon planet isn't great.

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

Okay now that I am on my computer I can type out my thoughts.

It was a pretty good film. I liked it, the action looked more real than the prequels and I laughed at most of the jokes. I enjoyed it but I am critical of movies that I both like and dislike. 

This movie has wasted potential. The cast for the most part is great and they mostly do a great job. But the plot to me suffers because it becomes A New Hope reboot over paying a homage. We can argue this all day but homages are great when they aren't most of the movie.

Hero knows they will be captured hides important data on droid.

Droid is found coincidentally by someone who has a connection in the story.

Captured hero is freed by not-quite-a stormtrooper

Heroes escape on the Millenium Falcon

Hero is given lightsaber part way through film.

Heroes skirmish with villain and lose someone important in one way or another.

Villains have super weapon that destroys an important planet.

Heroes have inside info how to destroy super weapon.

Against all odds super weapon is destroyed.

 

Yes there are differences but this movie suffers because it switches objectives 2/3s of the way through. If you were to take the plot of all the movies of OT it more or less goes like this:

A rag-tag group of heroes uses stolen plans to attack and destroy the enemy superweapon.

The villains retaliate for the destruction. In defeat the heroes both try to hide out and learn new ways to defeat the villain. They find themselves at their lowest points.

Having regrouped and grown as people the heroes make a list ditch effort to finish off their enemy for good.

Force Awakens:

Heroes are looking for Luke Skywalker but then realize there is a new super weapon and need to destroy it on the fly.

 

The whole movie could have been the search for Luke Skywalker with fights and chase scenes. Can anyone here say they would have been dissatisfied if that had been the movie? Heck most of the movie was exactly that and it made it enjoyable. Heck without the super weapon plot it would have made more sense. We see how strong Kylo Ren is with his force mental abilities. Imagine if instead of a super weapon we had Snoke controlling large swaths of the population with force powers? Or at least enough to make the Empire/First Order a viable threat?

I mean honestly the Empire has been effectively messed up twice now yet they are still seemingly as strong if not arguably stronger than before.

Snoke is in control of the Republic through sheer darkside and has the Rebels on the run again. They are obviously looking for Luke because he's the strongest light side user anyone knows. The dark side wants to kill Luke because he is the only threat Snoke faces. Heck this could even lead to Ren being a redeemable character who was mentally controlled by Snoke when he did the thing.

And there's the movie and we can plug in most of the things that happen after the Starkiller reveal into that story line that we like. 

 

 

 

I didn't dislike the movie and I enjoyed a lot of it.

I particularly liked Kylo Rens struggle. He was a very human villain. It was pretty awesome and I remember taking a moment after he stopped Poe's blaster shot in mid air. I never felt he faltered even with the mask off. Removing the mask simply humanized him.

I like the idea of Rey being mind wiped. I thought of that the moment she started being strong in the force. I don't hope she is anyone's kid though. I'm sorry but after all the coincidences of plot in the other six can we get a non-family tie in?

I liked the idea of Luke, Han and Leia being split and separated by Ren's switch. It's rather believable and would feed better into a plot of a resurgence of the Empire. The three biggest heroes from the last war are suddenly torn apart by a close event? That would weaken the republic greatly.

I liked the idea of Finn being a stormtrooper switching sides. Though I didn't like how he was terrified of killing and battle to only then kill and fight so well on the other side. I think it dampened his arc a lot. At the end he did feel a bit more sidekick than a full fledged character in his own right. Though his ability to use a lightsaber probably comes from a latent force ability.

I mean if we were to draw comparsions

Luke-Rey force strong hero, probably going to be the one to bring down the Sith.

Leia-Finn force latent hero

Han-Po smart-ass pilot 

 

3.5/5 for me. The camera work is pretty great, the CGI blends well with physical world and stunts and most of the characters are well done. I hope that the fanfare isn't as bad next flick. I kind of understand why it was in this one. I just wish a little bit that it wasn't. There was a lot of potential and I felt it was squandered for nostalgic feel.

[HexMachina]

Yep, rehashing the same points again I know, but Ren never really displays any sort of exceptional skills with a lightsaber, and his own training would have been incomplete too. That's the reason I enjoyed him so much as a villain - they didn't try to make him crazy powerful. They made him realistic - a conflicted, partially trained individual who wants so desperately to be seen as something more than he is

[Lord Varys]

Speaking of Hux, Linda noted that all the First Order seemed quite young compared to their counterparts in the OT. Assuming that is deliberate, it's another sign of the First Order being sort of a cult formed in emulation of the Empire and not actually a direct splinter of it. "Supreme Leader" Snoke (terrible name, I agree) may have co-opted the accoutrements of the Empire to draw in people... and may also have built up his forces by indoctrinating children rather than recruiting adults.

What is known about this 'First Order' thing is that it is sort of the official continuation of it or at least one of its splinters. The producers compare it to an organization founded by exiled Nazis who went to South America and began working together again. Considering that continuity would be among the most important things for such an exiled government one would actually expect that those 'First Order' guys would actually refer to themselves as the Galactic Empire and not come up with a stupid new name.

If I didn't misunderstand things then those new Stormtroopers, Finn included, are all indoctrinated clones (we have Finn only having a number rather than a name, and him not remembering any other life, suggesting he wasn't one of the drafted Stormtroopers the Empire began gradually using after the Clone Wars).

Considering that this 'First Order' thing doesn't seem to be around for all that long nor does it seem to have been very successful in the past it makes sense to make all the mid- and low-level personnel young people rather than the old guard - those people would have died during the internal wars for dominance among the Imperial leadership (that Palpatine Clone guy doesn't seem to be the type who allows rivals to live) as well as during the post-Endor wars between the remnants of the Empire and the New Republic.

By the way, the Fascist/Nazi parallels between the 'First Order' thugs aren't much different from what Lucas imagined originally for the Empire back in ANH. We just didn't see all that much of that back then. Thinking about that, the unclear chain of command between the 'dark cultist in the mask' and the regular military personnel was another direct ripoff from ANH during which Vader's position in the chain of command isn't clear. They really had not a single new idea in connection to the plot besides modernizing the whole thing - having a woman as the main hero is great, as is the gender and racial diversity thing. But then, they suck in the sense that they forget that there are actually different species in this universe. All the main characters are human, after all.

[Nictarion]

Finn wasn't a clone. He remarks about being taken from his family. 

[karaddin]

So on Ren's "I will finish what you [Vader] started" line - it was clear that he has his own agenda at play in finding Luke beyond that of Snoke who would have been satisfied with Luke just staying hidden.  Either he has an accurate view of Vader, which given Luke was training him is at least possible - recount stories of how Dad fell to the dark as a cautionary tale to try prevent your nephew from doing the same - or he doesn't, in which case his beliefs around Vader may be inventions of Snoke. If the former, what exactly was Vader trying to do in a concrete way that could be accomplished by his grandson? Taking power doesn't really fit as that's an individual thing. Given his desperation to find his Uncle, and what he believes about the Force given his view of the Light as corruption, my wild theory is that he wants to turn Luke not kill him.  Killing Han was just to fight the corruption of the Light and end that pull on him.

[Lord Varys]

Finn wasn't a clone. He remarks about being taken from his family. 

But wasn't there talk among the evil guys about clone troopers and stuff? Could be that I misremember and they were complaining that clones were better at being programmed and stuff...?

[The Human Abstract]

 

And then there's the obvious 'Maybe this girl who's story sounds totally unconvincing isn't untrained after all !' implication. She was clearly mind wiped and was at some point trained alongside kylo under Luke.

I don't know if I would use "clearly", but there was a small moment when I thought this was indeed the case that there was more to the story.  I thought it was this movie's equivalent of "Luke, use the force".  There was a "oh wow.  I feel it" kind of awakening moment.  

[Red Tiger]

But wasn't there talk among the evil guys about clone troopers and stuff? Could be that I misremember and they were complaining that clones were better at being programmed and stuff...?

Programmed can mean different things. It can mean that you were trained and brainwashed thoroughly.