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Christian Discussion II: We are an Advent people


MisterOJ

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On the death of Billy Graham:

I disagreed with him on much theologically, and he can be criticized for being too cozy with Presidents, but at least he was bipartisan in this coziness.

And unlike most younger preachers who the media tends to use as spokespersons for Christians, Graham never enriched himself from his fame. He was careful not to take a salary any larger than that the pastor of a large but not "mega" church would get, and he was never guilty of preaching "prosperity theology."  I was a bit upset when CNN immediately got Joel Osteen to comment on Graham's death -- Joel Osteen it no Billy Graham.

Unfortunately Billy's son Franklin is now one of the Evangelical leaders I least respect, since he's become one of Trump's chief cheerleaders.

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On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 3:20 PM, MisterOJ said:

Thanks, Ormond.

And yeah, the American Bible Belt can be a funny place. This week, after our Ash Wednesday service, we went out to eat at Captain D's, because... you know, fish. Emily was self conscious about walking in with the ashes on her forehead, but I assured here that there would probably be other folks in there, eating fish, with ashes on there head too. There wasn't. And one of the employees even came up to our table and asked, "What is that on your face?" So, yeah... I may have been wrong about that one. :)

I don't know if people are genuinely ignorant or they just point it out to be jerks. I'm in New York and there are tons of Catholics here and there are still the stories and the news every Ash Wednesday letting people know what the ashes are. CBS was setting up outside St. Patrick's Cathedral as I was coming out. They were even asking what people were giving up for Lent.

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26 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

I don't know if people are genuinely ignorant or they just point it out to be jerks. I'm in New York and there are tons of Catholics here and there are still the stories and the news every Ash Wednesday letting people know what the ashes are. CBS was setting up outside St. Patrick's Cathedral as I was coming out. They were even asking what people were giving up for Lent.

I think some of column A and some of column B.  Even in NYC, I've had people ask me about my ashes (though, to be fair, some if it is from friends at work who are Orthodox and are genuinely curious - we've had great conversations over the years in a very ecumenical spirit about different rituals and traditions).  But the column b people tell you "hey you have dirt on your face."  Whatever. 

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10 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I think some of column A and some of column B.  Even in NYC, I've had people ask me about my ashes (though, to be fair, some if it is from friends at work who are Orthodox and are genuinely curious - we've had great conversations over the years in a very ecumenical spirit about different rituals and traditions).  But the column b people tell you "hey you have dirt on your face."  Whatever. 

I had no idea the Orthodox didn't do ashes until last week. I don't mind answering if people ask because they really want to know.

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1 hour ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Exactly (and I was thinking about Orthodox Jewish, not Eastern Orthodox - interesting fact!).  

When my mother was growing up in Borough Park the Hasidim would ask about them periodically. One of the Priests at my parish liked to go out and walk when he was serving a parish upstate and would get together with some young Hasidic gentlemen who would pepper him with all sorts of questions about Catholicism and Christianity in general. They begged him not to tell the rabbi though.

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  • 1 month later...
On 17.11.2017 at 1:30 PM, Rippounet said:

When did written sources appear though?

This is far from cutting edge scholarship. The article, for example, lists "Wood (2003)" in regards to comparing the Sumerian Kings list with the Toledot in Genesis 5. That scholarship is about a hundred years old. Same with the idea that the Bible provides "re-tellings" of other popular myths and story motifs from its ancient West Asian context.

On 17.11.2017 at 3:13 PM, Rorshach said:

Different for different places and times. 

IIRC, the Old Testament is written somewhere between 900 and 600 BC. And the mythical history in Genesis 1-12 is largely found in earlier texts as well, believed to be derived from other religions in the neighbourhood.

The time difference is more than that for the Hebrew Bible texts. The Book of Daniel, for example, was likely written during the time of the Seleucid control of Judea (2nd century BCE). In fact, we have a solid textual evidence that it was composed during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. 

On 17.11.2017 at 5:50 PM, Tywin et al. said:

And I think it would be better. Most people would be down with the moral teachings of Jesus.

In all honesty, the Jefferson Bible is a flaming, stinking piece of shit devoid of any literary or ethical merit.

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9 hours ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

This is far from cutting edge scholarship. The article, for example, lists "Wood (2003)" in regards to comparing the Sumerian Kings list with the Toledot in Genesis 5. That scholarship is about a hundred years old. Same with the idea that the Bible provides "re-tellings" of other popular myths and story motifs from its ancient West Asian context.

Could you point me in the direction of the recent scolarship? I’m far out of date, and - working with students 13-16 years old does not give me the time to stay abreast. At all.

9 hours ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

The time difference is more than that for the Hebrew Bible texts. The Book of Daniel, for example, was likely written during the time of the Seleucid control of Judea (2nd century BCE). In fact, we have a solid textual evidence that it was composed during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. .

Now that you mention it, I recall that. Somewhere in the back of my head, I seem to recall that the book of Daniel had multiple authors (not that this is limited to Daniel, of course)? Were they (if my memory is correct) written at the same time?

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20 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Could you point me in the direction of the recent scolarship? I’m far out of date, and - working with students 13-16 years old does not give me the time to stay abreast. At all.

Now that you mention it, I recall that. Somewhere in the back of my head, I seem to recall that the book of Daniel had multiple authors (not that this is limited to Daniel, of course)? Were they (if my memory is correct) written at the same time?

1) A lot of recent scholarship still has to cover the old basics, which is likely why the Sumerian Kings list was mentioned in the Woods book. I will get back to you on a few recommendations tomorrow. 

2) You may be thinking of how the Book of Daniel switches from Hebrew to Aramaic in a few sections. I'm not too familiar with the scholarship surrounding the authorship of Daniel. Regardless of the number of authors, I think most scholarship is strongly convinced of its dating in the 2nd century BCE, because we have copies of Daniel among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which provides a terminal date. 

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8 hours ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

2) You may be thinking of how the Book of Daniel switches from Hebrew to Aramaic in a few sections. I'm not too familiar with the scholarship surrounding the authorship of Daniel. Regardless of the number of authors, I think most scholarship is strongly convinced of its dating in the 2nd century BCE, because we have copies of Daniel among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which provides a terminal date. 

That was it, yes. It also changes style at the same time, IIRC - from the story of Daniel to his apocalyptic visions. 

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On 27.3.2018 at 10:43 PM, Rorshach said:

Could you point me in the direction of the recent scolarship? I’m far out of date, and - working with students 13-16 years old does not give me the time to stay abreast. At all.

From the archaeological side of things, I used The Bible Unearthed (Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman, 2001) as the subject of a Sunday School course in 2015. Its grand conclusions that it draws from the archaeological evidence are not uncontroversial - mainly the sense that the authors attempt to tie everything to the reigns of Hezekiah to Josiah - but it does provide a nice overview of some of the historical and archaeological basics. This includes things like skepticism of a United Monarchy. The reality that Jerusalem was a backwater town and King David was probably more akin to a warlord.

In terms of Old Testament / Hebrew Bible, the OT faculty here at Uni Vienna primarily uses T&T Clark Handbook of the Old Testament (Jan Christian Gertz, Angelika Berlejung, Konrad Schmid, Markus Witte; 2012), which you you can find translated.

 

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1 hour ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

From the archaeological side of things, I used The Bible Unearthed (Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman, 2001) as the subject of a Sunday School course in 2015. Its grand conclusions that it draws from the archaeological evidence are not uncontroversial - mainly the sense that the authors attempt to tie everything to the reigns of Hezekiah to Josiah - but it does provide a nice overview of some of the historical and archaeological basics. This includes things like skepticism of a United Monarchy. The reality that Jerusalem was a backwater town and King David was probably more akin to a warlord.

In terms of Old Testament / Hebrew Bible, the OT faculty here at Uni Vienna primarily uses T&T Clark Handbook of the Old Testament (Jan Christian Gertz, Angelika Berlejung, Konrad Schmid, Markus Witte; 2012), which you you can find translated.

 

Thanks!

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  • 3 weeks later...
11 hours ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

One of the strange things about growing up is how you discover through Facebook that your old childhood Southern Baptist ministers are actually closet liberals.

Well, if you read what he says, Jesus is about the most left-wing person you can get. ;) 

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