Christian Discussion II: We are an Advent people

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, Astromech said:

I know exactly what you are arguing. It is the standard problem of evil argument: "If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, how can there be suffering and evil in the world? Since suffering and evil exist, God isn't omnipotent and omnibenevolent, or doesn't exist. The existence of evil and suffering contradict omnibenevolence and omnipotence and thus God's existence." This argument doesn't hold up for us Christians because it only accepts an either or. For us being omnipotent and omnibenevolent doesn't preclude the existence of evil and suffering when God wills it. The world was made imperfect by design as part of God's plan for us: eternal life and salvation, if we accept God, his grace and guidance. It is that evil and suffering which tests us. Their existence in this world offer us the free will to ultimately accept or reject God. There is a greater good in God's design. Thus we do not see a contradiction of God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence with the existence of evil and suffering.

You don't see a contradiction because you're ignoring it, remember what I said about engaging logically. Anyone who could get the same results without suffering but chooses to make people suffer deliberately because they want to is fucking evil. God as you describe cannot be omnibenevolent.

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I have no problem with the meaning of omnipotent. "Free will cannot exist without suffering and evil because in a  perfect world, no choice is required" was a poorly phrased statement. Allow me to correct that. God gave us free will by choosing to include suffering and evil in the design of this world, creating a choice for us to make. This doesn't contradict God's omnipotence.

This doesn't solve anything, but then I'm still not sure just what the fuck you mean when you say free will. But then I've a feeling that if you were to define it we would find that the existence of a omnipotent being would make free will an impossibility anyway.

1 hour ago, sainttriple7 said:

God made Adam perfect. Adam also knew right from wrong. He knew eating from the tree in the middle of the garden was wrong. God allowed Adam everything except one thing to show obedience to God. Eternal life in paradise was what Adam had. He chose to reject it of his own free will. He was saying "God I don't need you. I can do what I want."  Satan rebelled against God. He wanted to be like God and tempted Eve with the very thing Satan wanted. We inherited sin from Adam. We were now imperfect. The angels in Heaven are looking at the situation and wondering if Satan is right. God 's authority was challenged. So God allowed Satan to influence angels and mankind.  God also said if Adam disobeyed he would die. Sin brings about death. It says in the Bible "the wages of sin are death."  

God created Adam as an adult fully formed, and god created Adam knowing everything Adam would do before he was even created. Such a being cannot have freewill by any definition I am aware of. Same ultimately goes for Satan. Neither Satan nor Adam did anything more or anything less than exactly what god created them to do. Follow this logically and realize who therefore is actually responsible for what happened.

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Satan is the one in control of this world now.  1John 5:19. The good news is that won't always be the case.

Sure, the non-omnipotent being somehow has control over the omnipotent being. Satan is nothing less than a cop-out.

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As far as the genocides in the old testament. God made a covenant with Israel to protect them. More importantly God promised Abraham that the means of salvation would go through his line. When anyone came against Israel God intervened to keep his promise. God's promise now is anyone exercising faith in Jesus will have everlasting life.

Right, the all powerful god of the universe wasn't able to figure out a way to protect his "chosen people" that didn't involve genocide. And that makes it okay. Ignoring the several genocides that had jack shit to do with protecting Israel I'll just say thanks for the great example of why faith is fucking terrifying.

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The chief two commandments now are to love your God with your whole being and to love others as yourself. All the laws hang on those two commandments. So obviously killing of any kind is unjustified and anyone doing so is not doing God's will.

There is no law on the books anywhere, especially the bible, that says killing of any kind is unjustified.

How do you even write something like just after talking about god committing genocide?

 

Shit am I arguing against a Poe?

[King Ned Stark]

@sainttriple7, yeah, Satan is in control of this world.  It seems fairly evident, to me, with the teachings of Jesus and how people act; what they value (yes even Christians, even me).  Temptation is a great and terrible thing, and moral fortitude  is not exactly one of our strengths.  My biggest struggle is love thy neighbor, how can you love people who hate you, call you names, blame you for being of a certain race and religion.  People corrupt everything they touch, everything, even religion.  Even the name of Jesus Christ.  It is on us, not him.  Jesus loved everyone, and told us to meet hate with love; but we are frail.

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For everything in the world, lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life; comes not from the father but from the world.

 

[King Ned Stark]

@Astromech, Nice post.

@TrueMetis, what is it exactly you want?  They have graciously answered your questions, obviously not to your liking, and maybe to the best of their ability (which is beyond mine).  Our existence; as in the world, humanity, can not be answered, any presumed idea on the creation of this world, whether it be from a Creator or not, relies on logical fallacies and leaps of faith.  They choose to believe in God, you do not, and that’s okay.

[TrueMetis]

2 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

@Astromech, Nice post.

@TrueMetis, what is it exactly you want?  They have graciously answered your questions, obviously not to your liking, and maybe to the best of their ability (which is beyond mine).  Our existence; as in the world, humanity, can not be answered, any presumed idea on the creation of this world, whether it be from a Creator or not, relies on logical fallacies and leaps of faith.  They choose to believe in God, you do not, and that’s okay.

I want people to think. To not say shit like "God is perfectly capable of preventing suffering but decides not to but yeah despite preferring to make people suffer that god is still good" and act like that haven't said something completely fucking crazy. I mean you get that right? He just said that god is good even though he wants people to suffer.

The world exists because a star went super nova and created higher order elements that eventually pulled together into our planet around our second generation star. Humanity exists because it turns out self-replicating chemical reactions can happen under a wide variety of conditions and on this particular planet they ended up turning into a particularly odd hairless monkey. No logical fallacies or leaps of faith needed. And I wouldn't use them even if I wasn't aware of the above, because I'm fine saying "I don't know" and I'm not going to make up a story instead.

Btw I don't choose not to believe in god, it's not a choice to me. Anymore than I could choose to believe in unicorns.

[Astromech]

50 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

You don't see a contradiction because you're ignoring it, remember what I said about engaging logically. Anyone who could get the same results without suffering but chooses to make people suffer deliberately because they want to is fucking evil. God as you describe cannot be omnibenevolent.

This doesn't solve anything, but then I'm still not sure just what the fuck you mean when you say free will. But then I've a feeling that if you were to define it we would find that the existence of a omnipotent being would make free will an impossibility anyway.

 

No, I know exactly what you are arguing: omnibenevolence requires God to never bring harm to us, to always be benevolent. But we clearly differ on our views of what that harm is. Part of God's omnipotence in omniscience. God knows all. What you consider harm may be for the greater good. What you consider harm contradicts the idea of omnibenevolence for you. I believe it as a part of a greater good God envisions for us. Similar to Anti-Targ's comparison of God to a doctor. God is acting in our best interests, just as a parent acts in the best interest of a child. A child may not realize or like the actions taken by the parent and is hurt by it, but the parent is acting benevolently. I know this sounds entirely dismissive of some of the massive suffering in this world, but my faith leads me to the belief that there is a greater good and God is ultimately acting benevolently towards that greater good. It is difficult to comprehend because we lack God's omniscience, knowledge of God's grand design. I often wrestle with this. I have a hard time with my faith and am far, far, far from being the poster child for Christian life. But my doubts, struggles and sufferings have always led to a deepening of my faith and love for God. This deepening I believe is the purpose of those struggles.

Free will, as I am using it, is our ability to choose good or evil.  Again by God's design. If you don't accept the existence of good and evil, then, yes, we obviously have a problem discussing it.

[GAROVORKIN]

God is either for all of us equally or none us at all.  He plays no favorites.  The idea that he does so  comes from us and not him.

[King Ned Stark]

That’s fine, I have no problems with other peoples beliefs.  About six years ago I quit arguing with my younger brother (a through and through atheist) even though he threw stuff in my face, and still does to this day.  And that’s fine, and maybe God will ask me why I didn’t try harder to spread the word, especially to those close to me, and I’ll have to answer to that.  My answer right now, and why I thought for almost an hour before joining this thread, because it seems I do more harm than good.

To the question of existence, I’ll say this as I am no great scholar; some supernova, a floating atom, or just some puddle of mud.  It still requires an answer. Abiogenesis is fine, but where did the first non-living organism come from?  Existence, to me, like eternity, is beyond human comprehension.  The Big Bang, a Creator, or otherwise; something had to start something.  Something was always here.  How?  What started everything?

All believers of God have grave doubts, whether they’ll admit to it or not, IMHO.  I’m no different, less so actually, but here’s the thing for me, it doesn’t really matter.  I still get teary-eyed when I read what Jesus said, what he taught us.  If we could follow what he said, there would be no need for police, armies, etc.  I believe because I believe (which will never suit an intellectual), but when I have doubts, I know that I have still never read any other thing to believe in that is better than Him.  I strive everyday to be better because of Him.

[TrueMetis]

14 minutes ago, Astromech said:

No, I know exactly what you are arguing: omnibenevolence requires God to never bring harm to us, to always be benevolent. But we clearly differ on our views of what that harm is. Part of God's omnipotence in omniscience. God knows all. What you consider harm may be for the greater good. What you consider harm contradicts the idea of omnibenevolence for you. I believe it as a part of a greater good God envisions for us. Similar to Anti-Targ's comparison of God to a doctor. God is acting in our best interests, just as a parent acts in the best interest of a child. A child may not realize or like the actions taken by the parent and is hurt by it, but the parent is acting benevolently. I know this sounds entirely dismissive of some of the massive suffering in this world, but my faith leads me to the belief that there is a greater good and God is ultimately acting benevolently towards that greater good. It is difficult to comprehend because we lack God's omniscience, knowledge of God's grand design. I often wrestle with this. I have a hard time with my faith and am far, far, far from being the poster child for Christian life. But my doubts, struggles and sufferings have always led to a deepening of my faith and love for God. This deepening I believe is the purpose of those struggles.

Is your god omnipotent or not? How can you justify harm with an appeal to the greater good when your god can get the exact same good with no harm! Again this isn't some doctor who has to make a difficult choice because he's has limits on what he can do, this is a being who can fix all the problems with no downside and chooses not to for no reason. But at this point we're just going around in circles so fuck it.

9 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

To the question of existence, I’ll say this as I am no great scholar; some supernova, a floating atom, or just some puddle of mud.  It still requires an answer. Abiogenesis is fine, but where did the first non-living organism come from?  Existence, to me, like eternity, is beyond human comprehension.  The Big Bang, a Creator, or otherwise; something had to start something.  Something was always here.  How?  What started everything?

Good questions, maybe you should actually search for answers and test evidence instead of looking in a 2000 year old book and a "goddidit". Look dude "god" isn't an answer to anything. I'm going to paraphrase Sagan here. If we use "god" as the explanation for how everything came to be we must, if we are honest, ask how god came to be. If we conclude god always existed why not save a step and conclude that the universe, in some form or another, has always existed.

[Astromech]

1 hour ago, King Ned Stark said:

@Astromech, Nice post.

@TrueMetis, what is it exactly you want?  They have graciously answered your questions, obviously not to your liking, and maybe to the best of their ability (which is beyond mine).  Our existence; as in the world, humanity, can not be answered, any presumed idea on the creation of this world, whether it be from a Creator or not, relies on logical fallacies and leaps of faith.  They choose to believe in God, you do not, and that’s okay.

No, I actually do appreciate TrueMetis' challenge. We shouldn't take our beliefs for granted, but should question them. Only by doing so are we able to strengthen them and grow in our faith. TrueMetis may not like it or may vehemently deny it, but he/she is acting as a conduit for God by questioning our beliefs. Thank you, TrueMetis. Atheists are fully aware of logical and evidentiary flaws in our beliefs. But our strength is our belief, our faith. We don't require proof to believe. It wouldn't be faith if we did. This conversation is an important one to have for the reasons I just wrote above.

36 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Is your god omnipotent or not? How can you justify harm with an appeal to the greater good when your god can get the exact same good with no harm! Again this isn't some doctor who has to make a difficult choice because he's has limits on what he can do, this is a being who can fix all the problems with no downside and chooses not to for no reason. But at this point we're just going around in circles so fuck it.

Good questions, maybe you should actually search for answers and test evidence instead of looking in a 2000 year old book and a "goddidit". Look dude "god" isn't an answer to anything. I'm going to paraphrase Sagan here. If we use "god" as the explanation for how everything came to be we must, if we are honest, ask how god came to be. If we conclude god always existed why not save a step and conclude that the universe, in some form or another, has always existed.

Yes, I believe God is omnipotent, which includes omniscience, knowing all. I can question and try to understand God's plan, which will be futile, but I have the faith to trust in God's design and plan. Of course we are going around in circles. You require concrete answers and evidence for the existence of God. I don't. For me, it is enough to believe. For me that is a strength, for you it is a weakness.

Actually, the more science advances the more it reinforces my faith. The unraveling complexities of the universe show me the beauty and pure genius of God. As a reply to your Sagan paraphrase, God always was and always will be. God is not dependent on the universe, but the universe is dependent on God.

[sainttriple7]

TrueMetis,

Your comment gets right to the heart of a really important matter. Predestination vs. Free Will. Also in there is Accountability. 

Definitions to be clear:

Predestination: Divine foreordaining of all that will happen, especially with regard to salvation of some and not others.

Free Will: The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Accountability: An obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions.

So with those definitions out of the way a couple questions.

Do you believe that we have free will? Do you believe that we should be held accountable for our actions? 

To your others responses: I never said that Satan had power over God. I said God is allowing Satan to influence the world. We can resist influence from Satan. How can we do that? Follow God's word the Bible.

As far as killing or more accurately murder: Exodus 20:13 says "You shalt not murder."  That is one of many commandments God gave to man. Do you think God is bound by the same laws as man? Do you think God has a right to kill the wicked? There is a really famous passage that has Abraham asking God if there were righteous people in a town would God spare it for their sake. The account can be read at Genesis Ch.18.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TM,

A created world without pain and where everything is always perfectly happy is one in stasis, right?  After all if there is no pain and everyone is always perfectly happy why would anyone ever seek change?

[TrueMetis]

7 hours ago, sainttriple7 said:

TrueMetis,

Do you believe that we have free will? Do you believe that we should be held accountable for our actions?

 

By the definitions you gave? Not in a universe with an omnipotent god. Omnipotents necessitates omniscience, omniscience means knowing everything that would happen before it happens, humans in a universe with an omnipotent god are doing nothing more than exactly what that god planned.

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To your others responses: I never said that Satan had power over God. I said God is allowing Satan to influence the world. We can resist influence from Satan. How can we do that? Follow God's word the Bible.

 

That's not any better mate, allowing someone to hurt people while you have the power to stop it is incredibly immoral.

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As far as killing or more accurately murder: Exodus 20:13 says "You shalt not murder."  That is one of many commandments God gave to man. Do you think God is bound by the same laws as man? Do you think God has a right to kill the wicked? There is a really famous passage that has Abraham asking God if there were righteous people in a town would God spare it for their sake. The account can be read at Genesis Ch.18.

The Arahamic god has never, ever, limited itself to just the "wicked" your god kills babies.

12 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

TM,

A created world without pain and where everything is always perfectly happy is one in stasis, right?  After all if there is no pain and everyone is always perfectly happy why would anyone ever seek change?

Why wouldn't people seek change? More to the point why wouldn't your god create the world such that everything's perfect yet people seek change.

Scot at this point I'm wondering what your version of heaven is exactly. Most people consider it a place where everything is perfect, where there is no evil, yet by your arguments that can't be what you think heaven is because your arguments imply that would actually be terrible for humans.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

24 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Scot at this point I'm wondering what your version of heaven is exactly. Most people consider it a place where everything is perfect, where there is no evil, yet by your arguments that can't be what you think heaven is because your arguments imply that would actually be terrible for humans.

Something completely other than that which I anticipate.  I expect to be completely surprised.

[Rippounet]

There's no escaping the fact that an omnipotent being would have to be described as cruel since he allows the suffering of innocents.
That's cruel *by our standards* though. Since religion claims that there is an overarching design at work, it's always possible to assume the suffering of innocents serves a purpose -at least in the long run.
I've personally concluded that God has little interest for individual human lives, but that the design of the world nonetheless allows most (if not all) of us to grow as much as possible. And that maybe there is an afterlife for some of us. The fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is consciousness itself, and through conscience (and reasoning, and imagination...), humans have the capacity to turn the world into heaven (or hell). In other words, human life is a challenge, and while challenges are always inherently cruel on some level, they're also meant to provide something for those who succeed in the end.
Of course, since we have different religions and different interpretations of each one, there's no way to know what "success" really is.
I think in the end, whether you believe in God or not, you still have to do the best you can, and be the best person possible. Even without faith in God, you still need to have faith in yourself and in others. In other words, basic logic would dictate that the presence or absence of God hardly changes anything.
And perhaps at times some of us may feel that they're getting a little help from above, or that their faith in a benevolent overseer helps them in some ways. And maybe it's true, or maybe it's not. If we knew for certain it would lessen the challenge of our existence, and possibly diminish the value of any rewards that might be promised. And if there is no afterlife and no reward, spiritually is still a way to encourage people to better the world, and being the best person you can be brings its own rewards anyway.

[Eggegg]

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

There's no escaping the fact that an omnipotent being would have to be described as cruel since he allows the suffering of innocents.
That's cruel *by our standards* though. Since religion claims that there is an overarching design at work, it's always possible to assume the suffering of innocents serves a purpose -at least in the long run.
I've personally concluded that God has little interest for individual human lives, but that the design of the world nonetheless allows most (if not all) of us to grow as much as possible. And that maybe there is an afterlife for some of us. The fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is consciousness itself, and through conscience (and reasoning, and imagination...), humans have the capacity to turn the world into heaven (or hell). In other words, human life is a challenge, and while challenges are always inherently cruel on some level, they're also meant to provide something for those who succeed in the end.
Of course, since we have different religions and different interpretations of each one, there's no way to know what "success" really is.
I think in the end, whether you believe in God or not, you still have to do the best you can, and be the best person possible. Even without faith in God, you still need to have faith in yourself and in others. In other words, basic logic would dictate that the presence or absence of God hardly changes anything.
And perhaps at times some of us may feel that they're getting a little help from above, or that their faith in a benevolent overseer helps them in some ways. And maybe it's true, or maybe it's not. If we knew for certain it would lessen the challenge of our existence, and possibly diminish the value of any rewards that might be promised. And if there is no afterlife and no reward, spiritually is still a way to encourage people to better the world, and being the best person you can be brings its own rewards anyway.

This is a good post, thank you for it. My personal opinion is that good and evil really boil down to 'what is good for the group, and what is bad for the group'. The group being humankind, a community.. country.. whatever. I think that changes over time but our essential moral beliefs are founded on the ideas of helping others in our group, not harming others in our group and being selfless and not selfish. Now whether you consider those ideas were brought to us by God or by evolutionary psychology then I don't think it matters. Almost everyone has a fundamental understanding of good and evil on some level.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 hours ago, Astromech said:

No, I actually do appreciate TrueMetis' challenge. We shouldn't take our beliefs for granted, but should question them. Only by doing so are we able to strengthen them and grow in our faith.

That’s not truly possible here though, since those of us who would actually make you question yourself are essentially handcuffed by the disclaimer.

As to your debate about god’s omnipotence, it’s answered fairly early in the Old Testament. And the answer is no, he’s not.

But you’re asking the wrong question.

[Free Northman Reborn]

As I said upthread, Nature is clearly cruel and evil, considering that it preys on the weak and allows the strong to dominate. This world, therefore, is clearly fallen, and currently not operating according to how God would have wanted it to.

However, what if the entire span of the Universe, 13 billion or whatever years, is but an insignificant blink of an eye in the context of all eternity, and this is all insignificant in the bigger scheme of things? What if souls that die can be born again in another era, and get another chance to achieve salvation, for example?

What if there are trillions of other Universes out there, each going through its own gradual development, including the development of life forms with Free Will, on its way to whatever the ultimate goal of it all is?

My point is that our context is simply too limited to understand God's larger plan.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

32 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

That’s not truly possible here though, since those of us who would actually make you question yourself are essentially handcuffed by the disclaimer.

As to your debate about god’s omnipotence, it’s answered fairly early in the Old Testament. And the answer is no, he’s not.

But you’re asking the wrong question.

Could you share what you believe the right question to be?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Could you share what you believe the right question to be?

Hopefully you can answer this for yourself. When examining any religious doctrine, what’s the first thing you should ask yourself?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hopefully you can answer this for yourself. When examining any religious doctrine, what’s the first thing you should ask yourself?

I ask myself that frequently.  Yes, I believe that God exists.