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Rhaenys_Targaryen

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14 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Which year does AGOT open in 297 or 298?

 

13 hours ago, RumHam said:

Rhaenys can probably go into more detail, but the prologue and at least the first Daenerys chapter are set in 297. 

The Prologue indeed takes place in 297 AC. We know that with quite a lot of certainty. Around the middle of the year, to be more specific.

Bran I, takes place in 298 AC, rather early, on the same day as Catelyn I. 

Daenerys I and II are more difficult to say. Daenerys III ends in the middle of 298 AC, with her discovering that she is pregnant, but it is rather difficult to say how much time exactly has passes. A lot, we can estimate, from her experience with the khalassar and the language, but not how much exactly. Neither can we say how much times passes between Dany I and II, though that seems to be only little time, leading to the conclusion that Dany I and II most likely take place around the turning of the year, though exactly which one occurs when we can't say (yet).

AGOT ends in the early weeks of 299 AC, with all storylines more or less synchronized on the timeline.

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We know that to skinchange into another living human is considered an "abomination" among the wargs if the world. And we know that usually a discovered skinchanger is sent to learn from other wargs and such at a young age to learn the ways and rules. The Stark kids don't get that learning experience so we can forgive them for a few things like Jon and his wolf denial, Robb and Sansa maybe learning something but not quite, and Arya doing things in her own quick and dirty ways half a world across. 

Bran is the only one to have any guidance from Jojen but he is not a warg and Jojen doesn't know everything. For instance, Bran doesn't know that skinchanging into Hodor is morally wrong. But then Bran gets to Bloodraven who is a true warg and greenseer and teaches him tree stuff, yet Bran continues to warg Hodor. 

Why hasn't BR told him the rules of warging and to not slip into Hodor? Coldhands admits he is dead so BR isn't guilty of that. 

For the record, I do think Bloodraven is a bad guy and is up to no good which is really cool. 

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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

We know that to skinchange into another living human is considered an "abomination" among the wargs if the world. And we know that usually a discovered skinchanger is sent to learn from other wargs and such at a young age to learn the ways and rules. The Stark kids don't get that learning experience so we can forgive them for a few things like Jon and his wolf denial, Robb and Sansa maybe learning something but not quite, and Arya doing things in her own quick and dirty ways half a world across. 

Bran is the only one to have any guidance from Jojen but he is not a warg and Jojen doesn't know everything. For instance, Bran doesn't know that skinchanging into Hodor is morally wrong. But then Bran gets to Bloodraven who is a true warg and greenseer and teaches him tree stuff, yet Bran continues to warg Hodor. 

Why hasn't BR told him the rules of warging and to not slip into Hodor? Coldhands admits he is dead so BR isn't guilty of that. 

For the record, I do think Bloodraven is a bad guy and is up to no good which is really cool. 

I have always felt that Bloodraven is perhaps the most intriguing character of the entire series.  I am not convinced that his motives are entirely altruistic, particularly given the way that he seems to have guided Bran and his friends north. Perhaps the rules are different for Greenseers, or perhaps Bloodraven sees it that way - the idea that their connection to the Old Gods places them above the laws of men, maybe?

The Varamyr chapter is sometimes seen as a How To for Jon and a second life in Ghost, but there is a lot of information in the chapter regarding warging which I think is just as relevant to Bran. Like the fact that warging another human is seen as an abomination. We haven't judged Bran for doing that previously because he hasn't done it out of spite or for gain, but to help the group as a whole. And yet, in Dance we see him slipping into Hodor's skin in the cave more than once so he can explore places he cannot reach on foot.  

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55 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Perhaps the rules are different for Greenseers, or perhaps Bloodraven sees it that way - the idea that their connection to the Old Gods places them above the laws of men, maybe?

I think his violation of guest right in executing Aenys Blackfire might indicate that he felt he was above the law even before becoming a greenseer. (I'm assuming here that he didn't become a greenseer until later in his life when he was sent north. Though he may have dabbled in skinchanging before that. ) 

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4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I think his violation of guest right in executing Aenys Blackfire might indicate that he felt he was above the law even before becoming a greenseer. (I'm assuming here that he didn't become a greenseer until later in his life when he was sent north. Though he may have dabbled in skinchanging before that. ) 

The section on Aegon V's reign in TWoIaF says:

The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.

I think Bloodraven thought he was doing the Realm a service. Whether or not that is him seeing himself above the law at the same time is something that is, I think, open to a certain amount of interpretation - though I think that where people come down on it depends to a certain extent on their opinion of Bloodraven himself. Personally, I am not completely convinced of his motives, but do find him perhaps the most intriguing character in the series. Interestingly, Bloodraven is not the only character in the series to voice the sentiments he expresses above; the other is a character in whom Bloodraven shows an interest, and with whom he shares more in common than is shown on the surface. The below is from Jon VIII in Dance

"You have my word, Lord Snow. I will return, with Tormund or without him." Val glanced at the sky. The moon was but half-full. "Look for me on the first day of the full moon."

"I will." Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. "Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor.

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The guy also put people in cages to die because they dissed him in public.

I think I know where I come down on it. :)

Also, re: Fattest Leech's original post, are we sure Bloodraven even know Bran is warging Hodor? If he tried himself, he could feel that Hodor had already been "broken into" (ew), but why the hell would he try? And considering Bran feels bad about it, somehow I doubt he mentioned it.

Actually, as far as we know, that skinchanging humans is an abomination is only something we hear from Varamyr's mentor, right? Although I agree it was probably the consensus among wargs beyond the Wall, for all we know Bloodraven himself never heard about that "rule" either, and wouldn't care if Bran did it, regardless of where he put himself with regards to rules.

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45 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

The section on Aegon V's reign in TWoIaF says:

The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.

I think Bloodraven thought he was doing the Realm a service. Whether or not that is him seeing himself above the law at the same time is something that is, I think, open to a certain amount of interpretation - though I think that where people come down on it depends to a certain extent on their opinion of Bloodraven himself. Personally, I am not completely convinced of his motives, but do find him perhaps the most intriguing character in the series. Interestingly, Bloodraven is not the only character in the series to voice the sentiments he expresses above; the other is a character in whom Bloodraven shows an interest, and with whom he shares more in common than is shown on the surface. The below is from Jon VIII in Dance

"You have my word, Lord Snow. I will return, with Tormund or without him." Val glanced at the sky. The moon was but half-full. "Look for me on the first day of the full moon."

"I will." Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. "Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor.

I agree he's a very interesting character, I look forward to learning more about him. Especially in later Dunk & Egg stories. So much of what we hear about him is rumor or accusations. 

Anyway I agree he felt he was doing the realm a service. But I also think he did not expect to be executed/imprisoned/exiled to the Wall for his actions. Otherwise I suspect he would have found another way to neutralize Aenys, or at least not have presented his head to the Great Council the way he did. There's no reason Aenys couldn't have "choked on a pie" or fallen down some stair or something if Bloodraven wanted to be more discreet about it. 

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But I also think he did not expect to be executed/imprisoned/exiled to the Wall for his actions. Otherwise I suspect he would have found another way to neutralize Aenys, or at least not have presented his head to the Great Council the way he did. There's no reason Aenys couldn't have "choked on a pie" or fallen down some stair or something if Bloodraven wanted to be more discreet about it. 

Hmmm, I agree with your last statement but interpret it in the exact other way: perhaps he somehow knew it was time for him to get to the Wall anyway, and he figured he might as well rid the Realm of a Blackfyre at the same time.

I even like to think he was confident, with Egg's ascension, that the court/kingdoms/south were in safe hands, and he could focus his own attention on the next big shitstorm he saw coming, by greendream or something else (a call from the previous greenseer?!)

Anyway, sorry about the digression. Definitely agree he's about as fascinating a character as it gets.

Completely unrelated: did someone a few posts back ask about a collection of ASOIAF-related things on Not a Blog, or was that in Wow I Never Noticed that? Either way, BryndenBFish's done it!

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-complete-notablog-asoiaf-resource/

If I may, I think this link even deserves its place in the Small Questions' OP. So many gems in there, it's like a whole new SSM to keep us waiting some more. That thing about Tyrion flying... Hmmm.

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13 minutes ago, Roddy Darwin said:

Completely unrelated: did someone a few posts back ask about a collection of ASOIAF-related things on Not a Blog, or was that in Wow I Never Noticed that? Either way, BryndenBFish's done it!

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-complete-notablog-asoiaf-resource/

If I may, I think this link even deserves its place in the Small Questions' OP. So many gems in there, it's like a whole new SSM to keep us waiting some more. That thing about Tyrion flying... Hmmm.

Yeah that was me, thank you! I'll have to read through all that later. I just scanned through it quickly. That comment about Tyrion flying was great. 

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Question for anyone who can answer me this. 

We know when the war broke out that Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep because Jaime remembered the convo he had with Rhaegar. 

My question is was Elia and the children there also at that time because we know Aerys called them back or did they go to the Red Keep after Rhaegar went to war? 

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15 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Question for anyone who can answer me this. 

We know when the war broke out that Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep because Jaime remembered the convo he had with Rhaegar. 

My question is was Elia and the children there also at that time because we know Aerys called them back or did they go to the Red Keep after Rhaegar went to war? 

It has not yet been stated when Elia was summoned to KL with her children, nor when exactly Rhaehar arrived at KL again.

I would assume that Elia had already been summoned before Rhaegar went to war, as Aerys had  been threatening Lewyn Martell that he held Elia and her children.

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10 hours ago, RumHam said:

I agree he's a very interesting character, I look forward to learning more about him. Especially in later Dunk & Egg stories. So much of what we hear about him is rumor or accusations. 

Anyway I agree he felt he was doing the realm a service. But I also think he did not expect to be executed/imprisoned/exiled to the Wall for his actions. Otherwise I suspect he would have found another way to neutralize Aenys, or at least not have presented his head to the Great Council the way he did. There's no reason Aenys couldn't have "choked on a pie" or fallen down some stair or something if Bloodraven wanted to be more discreet about it. 

We know little of what actually happened at that time, so it is difficult to say for sure. As Roddy Darwin points out, this could have been Bloodraven angling for a move to the Wall to begin the next phase of his life. But without knowing more about him and when he first realized what his fate would be, we cannot say for sure. Although Bloodraven is associated with weirwoods from early on in our encounters with him, we do not know when he had his first green dream, or what led him to the cave he is living in during Dance. We do not even know if he always followed the Old Gods of his mother, or if he followed the Seven while he lived in King's Landing. 

Perhaps after years of running Westeros on behalf of the ineffectual Aerys (who seems to have spent as much time reading as Baelor the Blessed did praying), Bloodraven had become so used to power and politics that he did not see the decision on taking Aenys's life was not his to make. And from the sections below we get an idea of how Aerys and Bloodraven ruled the realm:

"Some will be pardoned, so long as they tell the truth of what they know and give up a son or daughter to vouchsafe their future loyalty. It will go harder for those who took pardons after the Redgrass Field. They'll be imprisoned or attainted. The worst will lose their heads." Bloodraven had made a start on that already, Dunk saw when they came up on his pavilion. Flanking the entrance, the severed heads of Gormon Peake and Black Torn Heddle had been impaled on spears, with their shields displayed beneath them. Three castles, black on orange. The man who slew Roger of Pennytree.

And later:

He is marking down the men to die, Dunk realized. "My lord," he said, "we saw the heads outside. Is that… will the Fiddler… Daemon… will you have his head as well?" Lord Bloodraven looked up from his parchment. "That is for King Aerys to decide… but Daemon has four younger brothers, and sisters as well. Should I be so foolish as to remove his pretty head, his mother will mourn, his friends will curse me for a kinslayer, and Bittersteel will crown his brother Haegon. Dead, young Daemon is a hero. Alive, he is an obstacle in my half brother's path. He can hardly make a third Blackfyre king whilst the second remains so inconveniently alive. Besides, such a noble captive will be an ornament to our court, and a living testament to the mercy and benevolence of His Grace King Aerys."

It might be up to Aerys to decide, but it is implied, I think, with all we know of Aerys, that he will do as the more politically astute Bloodraven suggests. 

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6 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

We know little of what actually happened at that time, so it is difficult to say for sure. As Roddy Darwin points out, this could have been Bloodraven angling for a move to the Wall to begin the next phase of his life. But without knowing more about him and when he first realized what his fate would be, we cannot say for sure. Although Bloodraven is associated with weirwoods from early on in our encounters with him, we do not know when he had his first green dream, or what led him to the cave he is living in during Dance. We do not even know if he always followed the Old Gods of his mother, or if he followed the Seven while he lived in King's Landing. 

Perhaps after years of running Westeros on behalf of the ineffectual Aerys (who seems to have spent as much time reading as Baelor the Blessed did praying), Bloodraven had become so used to power and politics that he did not see the decision on taking Aenys's life was not his to make. And from the sections below we get an idea of how Aerys and Bloodraven ruled the realm:

"Some will be pardoned, so long as they tell the truth of what they know and give up a son or daughter to vouchsafe their future loyalty. It will go harder for those who took pardons after the Redgrass Field. They'll be imprisoned or attainted. The worst will lose their heads." Bloodraven had made a start on that already, Dunk saw when they came up on his pavilion. Flanking the entrance, the severed heads of Gormon Peake and Black Torn Heddle had been impaled on spears, with their shields displayed beneath them. Three castles, black on orange. The man who slew Roger of Pennytree.

And later:

He is marking down the men to die, Dunk realized. "My lord," he said, "we saw the heads outside. Is that… will the Fiddler… Daemon… will you have his head as well?" Lord Bloodraven looked up from his parchment. "That is for King Aerys to decide… but Daemon has four younger brothers, and sisters as well. Should I be so foolish as to remove his pretty head, his mother will mourn, his friends will curse me for a kinslayer, and Bittersteel will crown his brother Haegon. Dead, young Daemon is a hero. Alive, he is an obstacle in my half brother's path. He can hardly make a third Blackfyre king whilst the second remains so inconveniently alive. Besides, such a noble captive will be an ornament to our court, and a living testament to the mercy and benevolence of His Grace King Aerys."

It might be up to Aerys to decide, but it is implied, I think, with all we know of Aerys, that he will do as the more politically astute Bloodraven suggests. 

Lord Bloodraven said that when you pardon rebels, you only plant the seeds of the next rebellion.

 

Daeron II was willing to pardon some of those who fought at the Redgrass Field, and it is important to do such things, because if you execute or kill all those who have opposed you, you teach your enemies that there is only the choice between fighting and winning, or certain death, whereas a man defeated or on the losing side will be more willing to surrender knowing that he might be punished, but allowed to live. There is, however, also a bit of truth in Bloodravens words. Of those who were pardonned for supporting Daemon I, there were some who were plotting to rebel using Daemon II (Peake, ect.). So that he chose to execute those who had already been pardonned before, is not a surprise.

 

Bloodraven had spend a significant amount of his life fighting against the Blackfyres. He was involved in three Blackfyre Rebellions, and it seems there were several Blackfyre-related skirmishes as well (like the battle in whig Maekar died). So to allow even the chance to exist that the Lords of Westeros might chose a Blackfyre as their King, despite the fact that there are several Targaryen heirs available, just because they mislike Aegon, was something Bloodraven couldn't do, I think. Something like 'the end justifies the means'. I don't think he did it just to be send to the Wall (he could also voluntarily have gone, whenever he wanted), and I am not convinced that Bloodraven had become too used to power.. he might have practically ruled during Aerys's reign, but Maekar most definitely ruled by himself during his 12 year reign, with Bloodraven as his Hand.

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18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Lord Bloodraven said that when you pardon rebels, you only plant the seeds of the next rebellion.

 

Daeron II was willing to pardon some of those who fought at the Redgrass Field, and it is important to do such things, because if you execute or kill all those who have opposed you, you teach your enemies that there is only the choice between fighting and winning, or certain death, whereas a man defeated or on the losing side will be more willing to surrender knowing that he might be punished, but allowed to live. There is, however, also a bit of truth in Bloodravens words. Of those who were pardonned for supporting Daemon I, there were some who were plotting to rebel using Daemon II (Peake, ect.). So that he chose to execute those who had already been pardonned before, is not a surprise.

 

Bloodraven had spend a significant amount of his life fighting against the Blackfyres. He was involved in three Blackfyre Rebellions, and it seems there were several Blackfyre-related skirmishes as well (like the battle in whig Maekar died). So to allow even the chance to exist that the Lords of Westeros might chose a Blackfyre as their King, despite the fact that there are several Targaryen heirs available, just because they mislike Aegon, was something Bloodraven couldn't do, I think. Something like 'the end justifies the means'. I don't think he did it just to be send to the Wall (he could also voluntarily have gone, whenever he wanted), and I am not convinced that Bloodraven had become too used to power.. he might have practically ruled during Aerys's reign, but Maekar most definitely ruled by himself during his 12 year reign, with Bloodraven as his Hand.

For some reason I had somehow completely forgotten that Maekar ruled between Aerys and Aegon. Really not sure how I could have managed to do that! I agree that Bloodraven is doing the right thing, I think my point was rather that Aerys may have tended to go along with what Bloodraven suggested rather than take control of the situation on his own; he was not an effective leader and left the business of ruling to his Hand. You are right, Bloodraven cannot pardon those who have been pardoned before, otherwise he truly is planting the seeds of the next rebellion. For me it ties into this quote in the main series from Storm:

Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. 

Perhaps then the answer in Bloodraven's actions lies partly in his growing obsession with eliminating the Blackfyre threat. We know from TMK that it was the threat from Bittersteel he was focused on. He was loyal to his true-born Targaryen relations, and it was their actions that resulted in Maekar's death. Perhaps he did not consider this reaction from Aegon as the Blackfyres had been responsible for his father's death? 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is there any indication that Illyrio is dying? 

There are a few passages that suggest he is healthy, he is described as surprisingly light on his feet, and he tells Tyrion he fucked a girl vigorously until the madness passed, the madness referring to his desire to rape Danaerys before she married Khal Drogo.

His diet seems like it is not high in red meat, more sea food and fowl, so less chance of heart problems, which would explain his dick still working and his use of the word "vigorously".

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