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Small Questions v. 10104


Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Are Varys's child spies (little birds) named after Bloodraven's spies (actual not-so-little birds)?

Probably not a small question, but a very interesting notion!

I always thought he called them that because of the saying "a little bird told me" and because it's really creepy.

But then, Bloodraven could have been saying that back then, which sounds very much like his kind of humor-only-myself-gets, as in the case of Maynard Plumm jokes, in which case your theory stands and would indicate Varys studied/admired/tries to emulate Bloodraven. Which, again, is an idea I really love and have never seen mentionned before!

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Half a year of hard fighting remained before the  Stepstones and the Disputed Lands were freed from the remaining Band of Nine, and it would be six years before Alequo Adarys, the Tyrant of Tyrosh, was poisoned by his queen and the Archon of Tyrosh was restored. For the Seven Kingdoms, it had been a grand victory, though not without cost in lives or suffering.

 

Does this mean that Alequo died six years after the War of the Ninepenny Kings ended? Or six and a half years after the war ended?

I figured six, but I wanted to check here.

If it would have meant six and a half, it should have been "and it would be six more years" right?

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Half a year of hard fighting remained before the  Stepstones and the Disputed Lands were freed from the remaining Band of Nine, and it would be six years before Alequo Adarys, the Tyrant of Tyrosh, was poisoned by his queen and the Archon of Tyrosh was restored. For the Seven Kingdoms, it had been a grand victory, though not without cost in lives or suffering.

 

Does this mean that Alequo died six years after the War of the Ninepenny Kings ended? Or six and a half years after the war ended?

 

I figured six, but I wanted to check here.

If it would have meant six and a half, it should have been "and it would be six more years" right?

 

 

As a native English speaker I read it as you do.

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Half a year of hard fighting remained before the  Stepstones and the Disputed Lands were freed from the remaining Band of Nine, and it would be six years before Alequo Adarys, the Tyrant of Tyrosh, was poisoned by his queen and the Archon of Tyrosh was restored. For the Seven Kingdoms, it had been a grand victory, though not without cost in lives or suffering.

 

Does this mean that Alequo died six years after the War of the Ninepenny Kings ended? Or six and a half years after the war ended?

 

I figured six, but I wanted to check here.

If it would have meant six and a half, it should have been "and it would be six more years" right?

 

 

I would agree with your interpretation. 

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Why did the Mad King, who was extremely paranoid, allow Jaime to keep his arms?  He strongly suspected the Lannisters were going to revolt and was using Jaime as a hostage - why would he let that hostage roam free with a sword? 

Or did Jaime only get his arms back just as Tywin arrived at KL when Aerys thought the Lannisters had proved themselves loyal after all?

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On 12/16/2015 at 4:20 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

A place for small questions that you feel don't need a thread of their own...

This is meant as an addition to the question about men who usually are/are not made knights... Number 4, hedge knights and freeriders who are drawn to the spotlight for their actions, Lothor Brune and Bronn come to mind specifically, as well as (likely) a number of the six hundred others dubbed that day. 

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

As a native English speaker I read it as you do.

 

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I would agree with your interpretation. 

 

Thanks to you both! :)

 

 

19 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

This is meant as an addition to the question about men who usually are/are not made knights... Number 4, hedge knights and freeriders who are drawn to the spotlight for their actions, Lothor Brune and Bronn come to mind specifically, as well as (likely) a number of the six hundred others dubbed that day. 

Will adjust

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Then he drew his sword and asked if Lord Mooton's men were waiting outside the door to take them captive. When told that the maester had come alone and in secret, Prince Daemon sheathed his sword, saying, "You are a bad maester, but a good man," and then bade him leave, commanding him to "speak no word of this to lord nor love until the morrow."

What did Daemon mean by love here? A maester's lover? Nettles? Or is it just a set phrase?

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8 minutes ago, ar3t3 said:

Then he drew his sword and asked if Lord Mooton's men were waiting outside the door to take them captive. When told that the maester had come alone and in secret, Prince Daemon sheathed his sword, saying, "You are a bad maester, but a good man," and then bade him leave, commanding him to "speak no word of this to lord nor love until the morrow."

What did Daemon mean by love here? A maester's lover? Nettles? Or is it just a set phrase?

To anyone that the maester loves. It is a poetic way of talking about anyone that has power over the maester, either a lord or a person that he loves.

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R_T, Have you ever been able to date when the Mance went over? If not, does this help?

“Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath.”

“I remember,” said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes … “You swore not to tell.”

“And kept my vow. That one, at least.”

“We dumped the snow on Fat Tom. He was Father’s slowest guardsman.” Tom had chased them around the yard afterward, until all three were red as autumn apples.

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On 1/28/2016 at 7:04 PM, Roddy Darwin said:

 

Probably not a small question, but a very interesting notion!

I always thought he called them that because of the saying "a little bird told me" and because it's really creepy.

But then, Bloodraven could have been saying that back then, which sounds very much like his kind of humor-only-myself-gets, as in the case of Maynard Plumm jokes, in which case your theory stands and would indicate Varys studied/admired/tries to emulate Bloodraven. Which, again, is an idea I really love and have never seen mentionned before!

I have a theory that the story that Varys uses mute children as his spies is a clever piece of misdirection.  We never hear of de-tongued children being caught in the Red Keep or Kings Landing.. They are kids, not master spies, surely at least a few have been caught.  Varys would have to be disposing of them and replacing them constantly over the years, that seems beyond the means of even the greatest spymaster in the kingdom.  The slave trade is illegal in Westeros and Varys has many powerful enemies, why hasn't Little finger been able to intercept a shipment of mutilated child slaves and use it against him?

I think it is a myth spread by Varys himself.  It serves two purposes... First it makes Varys more frightening and powerful seeming... This is a man who has no trouble acquiring hundreds of child slaves, cutting out their tongues, and he is able to get away with it.. Do you really want to cross him if your own children might end up as his little birds?  Secondly, and most importantly I think, it distracted people from the true source of his information... He gets a lot of it himself as a master of disguise... He has been in charge of the Black Cells for years as an established character that nobody knows is him... He surely has many other roles we are unaware of, carefully placed in places where he can get information.  I think he probably also has a great number of servants on his employ, and they are practically invisibly to the important people.  In almost every scene where "private" conversations are had, the presence of a servant is mentioned, almost in passing.  Nobody suspects they are in the employ of Varys because everybody knows that the Little Birds are mutilated children, and if one is caught, they don't know either that they are in the employ of Varys - they are getting their payment from mysterious people from overseas, and reporting to people who obviously are not the bald, soft voiced eunuch that is Varys.  I would not be surprised if being a eunuch is a lie as well, he could maintain his secret identities better that way... "That jailer cannot be Varys, he visits prostitutes every week and has many bastards."

This also makes Varys much less morally grey and more likely to be someone who really does care for the common people.

 

 

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On 1/28/2016 at 10:26 PM, FuzzyJAM said:

Why did the Mad King, who was extremely paranoid, allow Jaime to keep his arms?  He strongly suspected the Lannisters were going to revolt and was using Jaime as a hostage - why would he let that hostage roam free with a sword? 

Or did Jaime only get his arms back just as Tywin arrived at KL when Aerys thought the Lannisters had proved themselves loyal after all?

Although Aerys was paranoid generally when it came to blades, he felt no qualms about the Kingsguard knights around him carrying swords. He seemed to think he was safe with the seven men sworn to serve and protect him. Aerys was brought up with his grandfather Aegon V as king, and would have known about the history of his friendship with Ser Duncan the Tall. Aerys was also at Summerhall, when Ser Duncan died (as, possibly did multiple other members of the Kingsguard, though we do not know for sure) and the WOIAF segment on the tragedy seems to possibly hint at Ser Duncan perhaps engaged in some sort of valor. We should also remember the risks Barristan took in rescuing Aerys from Duskendale during the Defiance. And so, as far as Aerys is concerned, the Kingsguard are there to give their lives for the king. 

It seems to have been after Jaime swore his vows that Aerys started to become concerned that he had placed the son of a man no longer his friend next to him. And that hand had a sword in it. He wanted to keep Jaime in KL because he believed it was the only way to prevent Tywin from joining the rebellion on Robert's side. The belief Aerys had in the Kingsguard seems to have won out over the concern he had about Jaime having a sword. But Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne were all in Dorne, Lewyn Martell, Barristan Selmy and Jonothor Darry were headed for the Trident with Rhaegar. It would probably have made sense for Aerys to keep either Barristan or Jonothor as well as Jaime (Lewyn was always going to be sent off to lead any Dornish troops) but he did not. He retained his faith in the Kingsguard to the end. 

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19 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

I have a theory that the story that Varys uses mute children as his spies is a clever piece of misdirection.  We never hear of de-tongued children being caught in the Red Keep or Kings Landing.. They are kids, not master spies, surely at least a few have been caught.  Varys would have to be disposing of them and replacing them constantly over the years, that seems beyond the means of even the greatest spymaster in the kingdom....

....I think it is a myth spread by Varys himself.  It serves two purposes... First it makes Varys more frightening and powerful seeming... This is a man who has no trouble acquiring hundreds of child slaves, cutting out their tongues, and he is able to get away with it.. Do you really want to cross him if your own children might end up as his little birds?  ....

 

 

Folk within the story aren't aware he uses mute children, he says he uses 'little birds' but leaves people to believe that is servants and informers. As readers we know he uses mute children from incidents that Varys did not believe to be witnessed; the killing of Kevan by children Varys commanded, and the supposedly secret conversation with Illyrio that Arya overheard in the tunnels where he asked for fifty more and they said 'so young' and 'if they kept their tongues'.

The citizens of the palace have some awareness of there being ragged children within the grounds, when Arya was running around ragged she got taken for one by Tommen and Mycella. They would mostly not get caught because they are small and nimble and able to escape into tunnels, but if such children were ever caught by guardsmen that would likely be reported up through either the spymaster or chief gaoler, so it is little suprise that the high nobility that provide our POVs have no awareness of this.

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18 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Although Aerys was paranoid generally when it came to blades, he felt no qualms about the Kingsguard knights around him carrying swords. He seemed to think he was safe with the seven men sworn to serve and protect him. Aerys was brought up with his grandfather Aegon V as king, and would have known about the history of his friendship with Ser Duncan the Tall. Aerys was also at Summerhall, when Ser Duncan died (as, possibly did multiple other members of the Kingsguard, though we do not know for sure) and the WOIAF segment on the tragedy seems to possibly hint at Ser Duncan perhaps engaged in some sort of valor. We should also remember the risks Barristan took in rescuing Aerys from Duskendale during the Defiance. And so, as far as Aerys is concerned, the Kingsguard are there to give their lives for the king. 

It seems to have been after Jaime swore his vows that Aerys started to become concerned that he had placed the son of a man no longer his friend next to him. And that hand had a sword in it. He wanted to keep Jaime in KL because he believed it was the only way to prevent Tywin from joining the rebellion on Robert's side. The belief Aerys had in the Kingsguard seems to have won out over the concern he had about Jaime having a sword. But Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne were all in Dorne, Lewyn Martell, Barristan Selmy and Jonothor Darry were headed for the Trident with Rhaegar. It would probably have made sense for Aerys to keep either Barristan or Jonothor as well as Jaime (Lewyn was always going to be sent off to lead any Dornish troops) but he did not. He retained his faith in the Kingsguard to the end. 

I appreciate the effort but I don't think this really explains it.  A paranoid man does not seem likely to leave his personal defence to another he (reasonably!) has doubts over.  I was hoping there was something I'd missed, but it doesn't seem so.  Respect for the KG doesn't take away from the fact that he feared Jaime, so at most that amounts to cognitive dissonance: "I don't trust Jaime but I trust the KG so I'll allow my KG to defend me even when that individual is Jaime", essentially.  I guess it just boils down to "Aerys be cray-cray, yo", and that's it.  

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Some houses' sigils and the physical characteristics of the members of said houses match:

The Tullys have red hair and blue eyes, like the Tully banner.

Wylla Manderly matches the merman on the Manderly banner.  (I assume Wylla's green hair was an intentional nod to the Merling King on the Manderly banner.)

Petyr Baelish has grey(ing) hair and green eyes which match the Baelish family sigil and his personal sigil.

Aurane Waters has silver hair and grey-green eyes, like the Velaryon banner. 

Similarly, some of the Starks' wolves match their banner.  Four of the Stark children have grey wolves, as is on the Stark banner.  Jon Snow has a white wolf, which would match his own banner.  (Jon's banner would be a white wolf on a grey field: bastards' banner switch the colors of their families' house.)

Am I missing any?

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2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Some houses' sigils and the physical characteristics of the members of said houses match:

The Tullys have red hair and blue eyes, like the Tully banner.

Wylla Manderly matches the merman on the Manderly banner.  (I assume Wylla's green hair was an intentional nod to the Merling King on the Manderly banner.)

Petyr Baelish has grey(ing) hair and green eyes which match the Baelish family sigil and his personal sigil.

Aurane Waters has silver hair and grey-green eyes, like the Velaryon banner. 

Similarly, some of the Starks' wolves match their banner.  Four of the Stark children have grey wolves, as is on the Stark banner.  Jon Snow has a white wolf, which would match his own banner.  (Jon's banner would be a white wolf on a grey field: bastards' banner switch the colors of their families' house.)

Am I missing any?

The Greatjon is a giant of a man currently chained up.

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When Tyrion is on the Wall with Jon, he says to him- Many of my kin are bastards, but I've never had a bastard for a friend.  (paraphrased)  Seems he is talking about his niece and nephews, are there other Lannister bastards?  Is this quote used to support the A+J=C+J theory?

The quote can indeed be seen as an early hint that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are bastards. As far as I am aware, it isn't used to support A+J=C+J, but it has been a while since I've seen such a thread. In fact, "but Iv'e never had a bastard for a friend" is a bit contradictory to use to argue Jaime being a bastard, since he's Tyrion's friend, in addition to being his brother.

This quote is, however, used to support A+J=T.

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