Euron, Bloodraven and the Storm God

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

What's wrong with Euron Greyjoy?

We try to answer that question in our first video on YouTube. Theon thinks, Euron is a personification of the Old Way. But he has it all wrong, we think. We think that Euron has been contacted by Bloodraven one way or another and that he thinks that he is fulfilling the Storm God's will. What do you think? Is the connection between Euorn and Bloodraven one big red herring? Or is there more to it? What are Euron's plans and especially why?

Here's our video for more details on our idea of what's going on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ipk0M_7Awo

[edd tollett:(]

Idk if this means anything but another similarity between Euron and BR is, Euron had one of the warlocks he captured fed to the other 3, while BR has seemingly fed Bran Jojen paste. 

Also, do you think there is any connection between the Iron born religion and the religion of the 3 sisters? Both including a water diety and a storm one?

[TheSovereignGrave]

Also, do you think there is any connection between the Iron born religion and the religion of the 3 sisters? Both including a water diety and a storm one?

My opinion is that they're remnants of the religion the First Men had prior to their Pact with the Children. After all, the founding of Storm's End also involves sea and sky deities and that's hardly something associated with the Old Gods or Seven.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

Idk if this means anything but another similarity between Euron and BR is, Euron had one of the warlocks he captured fed to the other 3, while BR has seemingly fed Bran Jojen paste. 

Also, do you think there is any connection between the Iron born religion and the religion of the 3 sisters? Both including a water diety and a storm one?

 

My opinion is that they're remnants of the religion the First Men had prior to their Pact with the Children. After all, the founding of Storm's End also involves sea and sky deities and that's hardly something associated with the Old Gods or Seven.

Very good points you two are making. Actually the cannibalism thing never occurred to me. I never made that connection, but very interesting. If I should end up mentioning this in episode 2 (or maybe 3), in which I will go into more detail about why Bloodraven would contact Euron and how, I will give you a shout-out, edd tollett.

Concerning the gods: You are both talking about the Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skies, I suppose. I indeed think that these are variants of the same gods. We have these two, the Drowned God and the Storm God, then we have Elenei's parents who unleash storms trying to tear down Storm's End ... It's basically sufficiently similar to assume that they have developed from the some roots. (These things usually change over the centuries, like with the Germanic tribes. At some point the Vikings seem to have decided to make Woden/Wotan/Oden/Odin their most important deity and father of the gods instead of Ziu/Tius/Teiwaz/Tyr whe has the leading role in most other panthea and is the father of (most of) the gods as Zeus, for example.) The hottest question in that context for me personally is: Are all of them related to the Old Gods? Or are they maybe even what was initially called the Old Gods?

[TheSovereignGrave]

Concerning the gods: You are both talking about the Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skies, I suppose. I indeed think that these are variants of the same gods. We have these two, the Drowned God and the Storm God, then we have Elenei's parents who unleash storms trying to tear down Storm's End ... It's basically sufficiently similar to assume that they have developed from the some roots. (These things usually change over the centuries, like with the Germanic tribes. At some point the Vikings seem to have decided to make Woden/Wotan/Oden/Odin their most important deity and father of the gods instead of Ziu/Tius/Teiwaz/Tyr whe has the leading role in most other panthea and is the father of (most of) the gods as Zeus, for example.) The hottest question in that context for me personally is: Are all of them related to the Old Gods? Or are they maybe even what was initially called the Old Gods?

Pretty sure they're not related to the Old Gods. The Old Gods were the gods of the Children; the First Men would have no reason to adopt them until after the Pact.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I too have made the connection that BR may have contacted Euron.  Perhaps Euron couldn't fly in his dream, and was 1 of the impaled greenseers Bran saw.  Perhaps BR realized he was evil, perhaps were reading too much into it.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

Pretty sure they're not related to the Old Gods. The Old Gods were the gods of the Children; the First Men would have no reason to adopt them until after the Pact.

Well, what do we really know about that? I mean, they are called the Old Gods. What are the others then? The Even Older Gods? And what ARE the Old Gods? Have they never been anything more than this Greenseer-hive-mindish kind of thing? I mean, you might be right, but then, I'd say it's quite up in the air at this point.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

I too have made the connection that BR may have contacted Euron.  Perhaps Euron couldn't fly in his dream, and was 1 of the impaled greenseers Bran saw.  Perhaps BR realized he was evil, perhaps were reading too much into it.

I strongly disagree with the last sentence. "Reading too much into it" would imply that there really isn't much of a connection and we are seeing things that aren't there. That's not the case, I think. If the connection is not meaningful then George has put it in there on purpose as a red herring.

I personally think that Euron isn't simply a failed project of Bloodraven. I think that he has a role to play in what's to come. I will talk about it in episode 2. (Or probably in episode 3. I haven't cut the remaining material into episodes, yet.)

[Lord Wraith]

Well, what do we really know about that? I mean, they are called the Old Gods. What are the others then? The Even Older Gods? And what ARE the Old Gods? Have they never been anything more than this Greenseer-hive-mindish kind of thing? I mean, you might be right, but then, I'd say it's quite up in the air at this point.

I believe the Old Gods are the hive mind of the CoTF and maybe others who follow them? They use Bloodraven/whoever is connected to the Weirnet to interact with the outside world.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

I believe the Old Gods are the hive mind of the CoTF and maybe others who follow them? They use Bloodraven/whoever is connected to the Weirnet to interact with the outside world.

I don't actually want to doubt that, I guess. But is that everything there is? I have a hard time getting my thought on these questions in order, because it is pure speculation, but this Storm God versus Drowned God thing fits this general theme of balance in A Song of Ice and Fire. Probably that's why I am looking for a connection. The fight between Nagga and the Storm God reminds me a whole lot of the fight between the Lord of Light and his army and the Great Other as Melisandre thinks about it, I guess. It then comes down to one question: What role do the Old Gods/Children/Greenseers play in this quest for dominance or balance? I do have an idea, which I am going to try to explain in a future video.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I strongly disagree with the last sentence. "Reading too much into it" would imply that there really isn't much of a connection and we are seeing things that aren't there. That's not the case, I think. If the connection is not meaningful then George has put it in there on purpose as a red herring.
I personally think that Euron isn't simply a failed project of Bloodraven. I think that he has a role to play in what's to come. I will talk about it in episode 2. (Or probably in episode 3. I haven't cut the remaining material into episodes, yet.)

O I certainly don't think we're reading too much into it, just that we don't really know exactly what is going on.  However I don't agree with the connections people try to draw between the Others and Euron.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

O I certainly don't think we're reading too much into it, just that we don't really know exactly what is going on.  However I don't agree with the connections people try to draw between the Others and Euron.

I guess I haven't even heard of connections between Euron and the Others. Sounds pretty strange to me. Can I read about that idea somewhere? Or could you elaborate?

[aryagonnakill#2]

I guess I haven't even heard of connections between Euron and the Others. Sounds pretty strange to me. Can I read about that idea somewhere? Or could you elaborate?

I'm not fond of the idea so I don't think I can really describe it fully, but basically the whole Ironborn mantra of what is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger makes some people think they actually worship the Others since they raise the dead, whether they know that's who they are worshipping or not.  The theory, which I disagree with then go's on to say that Euron is basically working for the Others by creating a bunch of dead bodies for them to raise and chaos so the realm is weaker and cannot fight back.  There isn't much substance to it as far as I know, but like I said I haven't read into it much, someone might be able to give you more.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

I'm not fond of the idea so I don't think I can really describe it fully, but basically the whole Ironborn mantra of what is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger makes some people think they actually worship the Others since they raise the dead, whether they know that's who they are worshipping or not.  The theory, which I disagree with then go's on to say that Euron is basically working for the Others by creating a bunch of dead bodies for them to raise and chaos so the realm is weaker and cannot fight back.  There isn't much substance to it as far as I know, but like I said I haven't read into it much, someone might be able to give you more.

Now that you told me about it, I am alo not fond of it, I guess.  I mean, even if we follow that logic, then the Drowned God would be the Great Other or something. But Euron doesn't even care about the Drowned God. I think that's pretty clear. I point that out in the video above and I think it's clear as day overall. I suppose such a theory might come from notorious ironborn-haters, I don't know.

[Myself656]

What role do the Old Gods/Children/Greenseers play in this quest for dominance or balance?

My growing hunch is that ASoIaF is the story where the world was thrown out of balance by past events and that the resolution requires a reunion of the opposites that balance now swings wildly between. I'm a growing fan of the cosmic catastrophe theory and if you connect that (that AA is the sun, NN the now lost moon and LB the comet that destroyed the moon) with the fact that Children attempted to stop the First Men by essentially calling down a comet to cut off the land bridge the First Men invaded Westeros through I think there is case for the following;

The Old Gods/Children were the ones who caused the great imbalance that lead to the Long Night and Planetos' erratic and long season in the first place and whatever powers men call R'hllor/the Storm God and The Great Other/Drowned God are the natural responses to that disruption of the world (and that the Red Priests and Others/Blue Priests are men transformed by these two forces and misguidedly trying to bring about final victory for one or the other when the real answer is a restoration of the balance).

The big question is if the imbalance created was intentional (implying malice and a reveal as the ultimate villains of the story) or accidental (implying a sin for which they wish to repent by aiding the heroes to put right what they put wrong).

One sidelong interesting facet to consider is how The Seven Who Are One fit into this. There is a dualistic split in that faith as well (thee male aspects and three female aspects) with the Stranger as balance between the two. We also do not know whether this faith predates or postdates the Long Night. If it predates it, the Faith of the Seven might actually represent worship of the Unified Whole that was disrupted by the Children of the Forest and gave us two equal and opposite forces. If it postdates it, then the dualistic elements and certain legends (the blue-eyed bride who gives the first Andal king 44 sons might relate to the moon's destruction and raining of fragments down upon the world for example) might be the same sort of attempts to relate to that cosmic phenomena that the stories of AA/NN/LB and R'hllor vs. the Great Other are to the Red Priests, but in a way that still attempts to reconnect the fractured opposites into their once unified form.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

My growing hunch is that ASoIaF is the story where the world was thrown out of balance by past events and that the resolution requires a reunion of the opposites that balance now swings wildly between. I'm a growing fan of the cosmic catastrophe theory and if you connect that (that AA is the sun, NN the now lost moon and LB the comet that destroyed the moon) with the fact that Children attempted to stop the First Men by essentially calling down a comet to cut off the land bridge the First Men invaded Westeros through I think there is case for the following;

The Old Gods/Children were the ones who caused the great imbalance that lead to the Long Night and Planetos' erratic and long season in the first place and whatever powers men call R'hllor/the Storm God and The Great Other/Drowned God are the natural responses to that disruption of the world (and that the Red Priests and Others/Blue Priests are men transformed by these two forces and misguidedly trying to bring about final victory for one or the other when the real answer is a restoration of the balance).

The big question is if the imbalance created was intentional (implying malice and a reveal as the ultimate villains of the story) or accidental (implying a sin for which they wish to repent by aiding the heroes to put right what they put wrong).

One sidelong interesting facet to consider is how The Seven Who Are One fit into this. There is a dualistic split in that faith as well (thee male aspects and three female aspects) with the Stranger as balance between the two. We also do not know whether this faith predates or postdates the Long Night. If it predates it, the Faith of the Seven might actually represent worship of the Unified Whole that was disrupted by the Children of the Forest and gave us two equal and opposite forces. If it postdates it, then the dualistic elements and certain legends (the blue-eyed bride who gives the first Andal king 44 sons might relate to the moon's destruction and raining of fragments down upon the world for example) might be the same sort of attempts to relate to that cosmic phenomena that the stories of AA/NN/LB and R'hllor vs. the Great Other are to the Red Priests, but in a way that still attempts to reconnect the fractured opposites into their once unified form.

Very interesting point and many ideas in there that I share. The Children/Greenseers/Old Gods having caused the imbalance is a possibility that I see, but on the other hand ... I can also see the Children trying to avert the human invasion as an act of keeping things in balance. So I am really unsure which idea I find more convincing. However, I am relatively sure that Bloodraven and his crew are trying to rebalance things right now. Would you agree? This, by the way, leads to another question I have been thinking about: How many Children are there and are they all on the same side?

[aryagonnakill#2]

Now that you told me about it, I am alo not fond of it, I guess.  I mean, even if we follow that logic, then the Drowned God would be the Great Other or something. But Euron doesn't even care about the Drowned God. I think that's pretty clear. I point that out in the video above and I think it's clear as day overall. I suppose such a theory might come from notorious ironborn-haters, I don't know.

Ya, I just remembered that Moqorro also tells VIc that the Drowned god is a thrall to the great Other, so I think thats part of it too.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

Ya, I just remembered that Moqorro also tells VIc that the Drowned god is a thrall to the great Other, so I think thats part of it too.

Well, it's not surprising that Moqorro would say that, is it? That's what monotheistic/dualistic religions always say: Other gods are in fact demons.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well, it's not surprising that Moqorro would say that, is it? That's what monotheistic/dualistic religions always say: Other gods are in fact demons.

No not surprising at all.  Moqorro does seem much better at reading his visions than Mel tho. I'm very interesting in seeing more of him.  He also seems to insinuate that Euron will be Danys biggest threat.  A Kraken sailing on a sea of blood or something like that.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

No not surprising at all.  Moqorro does seem much better at reading his visions than Mel tho. I'm very interesting in seeing more of him.  He also seems to insinuate that Euron will be Danys biggest threat.  A Kraken sailing on a sea of blood or something like that.

I guess, I agree that Moqorro is superior to Mel in these respects. We have seen too little of him to really make sense of him, however. I am not sure where his story is going. The second problem is that we don't really know, where Euron's story is going. I think, as hinted in the video above, that Euron thinks he is doing what the Storm God wants him to do, but he has actually been manipulated by Bloodraven. So, while the Storm God might be an equivalent - of sorts - to R'hllor, we can't simply put Euron on R'hllor's side. That said, Moqorro might also be mistaken, if he considers Euron the enemy. We still don't even know if this whole story is about fighting Others and the dark and what not or if it is about incorporating it somehow. There are too many variables to really be sure about those things at this point.