Friends in the Reach

[Lost Melnibonean]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is dead in Westeros. What the Golden Company believe is irrelevant. They are serving a Targaryen prince, so Westeros is going to believe that he is a Targaryen prince. Or not.

Of course, silly goose. That's the reason for the long con. 

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But if they are not nobody is going to turn against Aegon because he is 'a Blackfyre'. They might turn on him because he is an impostor, a fake, a false Targaryen, not because he is a Blackfyre descendant.

Pull back the caul from your eyes, my fellow ASOIAF fanatic. It is the same thing. If they turn against him for being the Blackfyre, it is because he is the mummer's dragon, an impostor, a fake, a fraud, a chimera. 

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that the Golden Company accompanies Aegon could easily cause Arianne and others to suspect that he might be a Blackfyre descendant of unknown origins. However, if the boy is going to have any success that idea cannot gain any ground in Westeros, and Dany later on might have reasons to dismiss Aegon as a fake but the important point there will be that he is a fake not that he is Blackfyre.

I suspect they will be able to fool Arianne and other characters like Jon Connington, and many readers too, with statements like, "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon," and all they want is home. 

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And for the hundredth time: 

As Master Rigney once wrote, "History is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again," like our arguments.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Blackfyres themselves are dead, too. House Blackfyre is extinct, and since Aegon is not female he is as much a Blackfyre as Robb is a Tully, Mace a Redwyne, Catelyn a Whent, Rhaenyra an Arryn, Robert a Targaryen, or Dany a Blackwood.

He might be a Mopatis and a distant descendant of Daemon Blackfyre but that is not the same as him being a Blackfyre.

Recall your Shakespeare, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Our storyteller loves Shakespeare. 

 

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Of course, silly goose. That's the reason for the long con. 

But then they won't care about the whole Blackfyre crap. The relevant part is that Aegon might not be Rhaegar's son, not that he might be a Blackfyre. All people need to know or believe that he is a fraud, not what his actual story is.

The story that Aegon might some whore's son with some lowborn Pentoshi cheese monger might be far more devastating for his cause than any Blackfyre stuff. If Dany or anyone would ever challenge Aegon's claim they should spin that story rather than any fancy Blackfyre stories. A Blackfyre 

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I suspect they will be able to fool Arianne and other characters like Jon Connington, and many readers too, with statements like, "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon," and all they want is home. 

I see no reason to believe that the Golden Company officers who actual are descendants from some Westerosi people want back home. What else should they want? In George's world - just as much in the real world - the common people seldom fight crusades in the names of rightful kings. Harry Strickland isn't Bittersteel. And neither are Varys or Illyrio. They have a much more pragmatic view on reality and politics.

And do you really think Arianne has to believe Aegon is truly Elia's son to join forces with him? Or anybody else, really?

Thanks to Varys, a lot of people seem to be looking forward to a Targaryen restoration - it is just convenient for many people to believe this is the case, just as it was convenient for the Tyrells and a lot of Westermen that Cersei's children were actually Robert's despite the fact that they, most likely, found Stannis' story completely convincing.

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Recall your Shakespeare, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Our storyteller loves Shakespeare.

And that means what? That Henry Tudor is a Plantagenet despite the fact that he was born a Tudor and never named himself Plantagenet?The Blackfyres died with Maelys the Monstrous just as the Plantagenets lost the English throne when Richard III was killed.

Aegon isn't a dragon.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 11:15 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

I am not positive at all, and the men of Cape Wrath haven't joined anyone. They've just had their castles seized. Even with Arianne's chapter there's no evidence of that.

Eh the Tyrell men will have the advantage with cavalry -- most of the GC's horses were spread out along with the men -- and numbers. I really doubt they break first unless Mace is in command OR they get completely surprised. At some point Aegon's success is going to come to a complete halt.

Euron isn't going to use magic against anyone's fleet. When have we even seen anything close to magic that can affect that many people/things at once? After 5 books where there's been one deus ex shadowbaby and a buncha parlor tricks masquerading as magic (eg the gendry worms), we're suddenly going to Euron become a fantasy warlock? Maybe he gets a kraken, but Dany has Drogon. I'd be very surprised if Euron even bothers to sail around Dorne.

But don't you think Euron has to defeat the Redwyn fleet?  And given that, how else could he win other than magic?

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But then they won't care about the whole Blackfyre crap. The relevant part is that Aegon might not be Rhaegar's son, not that he might be a Blackfyre. All people need to know or believe that he is a fraud, not what his actual story is.

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps you are wrong. I think it will matter, but I have been wrong before. Have you? 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The story that Aegon might some whore's son with some lowborn Pentoshi cheese monger might be far more devastating for his cause than any Blackfyre stuff. If Dany or anyone would ever challenge Aegon's claim they should spin that story rather than any fancy Blackfyre stories. 

I am sure some will try to do just that. Mace, Randyll, and Kevan began pushing that angle in the Epilogue to Dance, and 

Spoiler

Daemon Sand did it in 

Arianne I, Winds. 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 I see no reason to believe that the Golden Company officers who actual are descendants from some Westerosi people want back home. What else should they want? In George's world - just as much in the real world - the common people seldom fight crusades in the names of rightful kings. Harry Strickland isn't Bittersteel. And neither are Varys or Illyrio. They have a much more pragmatic view on reality and politics.

Your reading of the characters in ASOIAF differs from mine. Perhaps you are closer to the mark than me. Perhaps you are not. As I said above, I have been wrong before. 

But I would like to clarify that first sentence. Did you mean to say that the officers of the Golden Company just want to go back home? I am asking because the way you wrote that sentence suggests that you see no reason that they should want to go back to Westeros. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And do you really think Arianne has to believe Aegon is truly Elia's son to join forces with him? Or anybody else, really?

Yes...

Spoiler

"Gregor Clegane ripped Aegon out of Elia's arms and smashed his head against a wall," Ser Daemon said.  "If Lord Connington's prince has a crushed skull, I will believe that Aegon Targaryen has returned from the grave.  Elsewise, no.  This is some feigned boy, no more.  A sellsword's ploy to win support."

My father fears the same.  "If not, though... if this truly is Jon Connington, if the boy is Rhaegar's son... "

"Are you hoping that he is, or that he's not?"

"I... it would give great joy to my father if Elia's son were still alive.  He loved his sister well."

"It was you I asked about, not your father."

So it was.  "I was seven when Elia died.  They say I held her daughter Rhaenys once, when I was too young to remember.  Aegon will be a stranger to me, whether true or false."  The princess paused.  "We looked for Rhaegar's sister, not his son."  Her father had confided in Ser Daemon when he chose him as his daughter's shield; with him at least she could speak freely. 

Arianne I, Winds

I think Doran wants Arianne to determine whether Aegon is who he says he is, not just the measure of his military support. 

I think it is possible that Dorne might not back Aegon right away, and that Euron will put Aegon's ass in a sling, until Daenerys arrives with her dragons, and Euron gets what's coming to him, as Aegon bonds with Rhaegal, and then Dorne, and everybody else, including Daenerys, backs him. Or not. At least that's what I suspect. If I recall correctly, you think Aegon will already be on the throne by the time Daenerys arrives, and that she will proceed to kick his usurping ass immediately upon her arrival, unless Euron kills him first, right? 

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Thanks to Varys, a lot of people seem to be looking forward to a Targaryen restoration - it is just convenient for many people to believe this is the case, just as it was convenient for the Tyrells and a lot of Westermen that Cersei's children were actually Robert's despite the fact that they, most likely, found Stannis' story completely convincing.

And that means what? That Henry Tudor is a Plantagenet despite the fact that he was born a Tudor and never named himself Plantagenet?The Blackfyres died with Maelys the Monstrous just as the Plantagenets lost the English throne when Richard III was killed.

Aegon isn't a dragon.

Now there's a bold statement! 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps you are wrong. I think it will matter, but I have been wrong before. Have you? 

Sure, but actually not all that often.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am sure some will try to do just that. Mace, Randyll, and Kevan began pushing that angle in the Epilogue to Dance, and 

  Reveal hidden contents

Daemon Sand did it in 

Arianne I, Winds. 

Well, what else should they believe? There is no proof. It is hardly surprising that nobody who sees an advantage that Aegon is real is going to believe that. People believe what they want to believe. At least in the political sphere.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Your reading of the characters in ASOIAF differs from mine. Perhaps you are closer to the mark than me. Perhaps you are not. As I said above, I have been wrong before. 

But I would like to clarify that first sentence. Did you mean to say that the officers of the Golden Company just want to go back home?

Yeah, that's a typo.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 Yes...

  Reveal hidden contents

"Gregor Clegane ripped Aegon out of Elia's arms and smashed his head against a wall," Ser Daemon said.  "If Lord Connington's prince has a crushed skull, I will believe that Aegon Targaryen has returned from the grave.  Elsewise, no.  This is some feigned boy, no more.  A sellsword's ploy to win support."

My father fears the same.  "If not, though... if this truly is Jon Connington, if the boy is Rhaegar's son... "

"Are you hoping that he is, or that he's not?"

"I... it would give great joy to my father if Elia's son were still alive.  He loved his sister well."

"It was you I asked about, not your father."

So it was.  "I was seven when Elia died.  They say I held her daughter Rhaenys once, when I was too young to remember.  Aegon will be a stranger to me, whether true or false."  The princess paused.  "We looked for Rhaegar's sister, not his son."  Her father had confided in Ser Daemon when he chose him as his daughter's shield; with him at least she could speak freely. 

Arianne I, Winds

I think Doran wants Arianne to determine whether Aegon is who he says he is, not just the measure of his military support. 

I know what Doran wants from Arianne, but why do you think Arianne actually has to do what her father asked of her? Aegon cannot prove that he is who he says he is. Sure, they will try their best to convince her but what if Arianne receives word of Daenerys' marriage to one Hizdahr zo Loraq or hears about her death in Daznak's Pit while being at Storm's End?

She wants revenge and resents the fact that Viserys is dead and the idea of Quentyn becoming a king. With Dany dead/married to a Ghiscari nobleman the Quentyn plan is pretty much dead regardless whether Quentyn himself is still alive. Dorne can either continue to do nothing or Arianne can *believe* Aegon is her cousin or just tell herself she does. She makes the call. And once she sends word to the armies they will march, and then nothing Doran does or says will matter. At least not in the question of war or peace.

I'm pretty sure she would lie to herself and others to get what she wants. And why shouldn't she? Aegon will be her tool to acquire some real power.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think it is possible that Dorne might not back Aegon right away, and that Euron will put Aegon's ass in a sling, until Daenerys arrives with her dragons, and Euron gets what's coming to him, as Aegon bonds with Rhaegal, and then Dorne, and everybody else, including Daenerys, backs him. Or not. At least that's what I suspect. If I recall correctly, you think Aegon will already be on the throne by the time Daenerys arrives, and that she will proceed to kick his usurping ass immediately upon her arrival, unless Euron kills him first, right? 

I can't foresee the story this far. I just say that I'm pretty sure Euron will crush Aegon should the boy be foolish enough to challenge him in battle. The man has Valyrian armor and seems to be a powerful sorcerer. Aegon is no match for such kind of an opponent.

All I think we can say is that Aegon will take the Iron Throne. I'd base that on George's confirming that quite a few people will sit that chair before the series is over, the cloth dragon in front of cheering crowd vision, and the fact that Aegon should have some actual power should he become a major player in the Second Dance. If the latter is not the case then he can certainly be long dead by the time Dany shows up. But I'm inclined to believe he has to play a role in that war.

If Euron challenges Dany in some naval battle - possibly in alliance with some of the Free Cities (Lys and Tyrosh) then her forces could be weakened/dispersed enough for Aegon to actually challenge her in Westeros. If she just moves her vast armada to Westeros then she could simply land at KL and the war would be over if Aegon is there at this time.

But that whole thing is pretty far in the future at this point. The chances that Aegon ever mounts one of Dany's dragons is very unlikely. He wouldn't have all that much Targaryen blood if he isn't Rhaegar's son, and it is not very likely that the other two dragons have no riders at this point. Having some convoluted dragon-stealing attempt would take a lot of chapters. I'm not saying this is impossible but I won't speculate all that much about that while the dragons are still stuck in Slaver's Bay.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Now there's a bold statement! 

Not bolder than the idea that Robert is no dragon, Harry no falcon, Mace no grape, Robb no fish, Willas no lighthouse, etc.

[Lost Melnibonean]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but actually not all that often.

Well, what else should they believe? There is no proof. It is hardly surprising that nobody who sees an advantage that Aegon is real is going to believe that. People believe what they want to believe. At least in the political sphere.

Yeah, that's a typo.

I know what Doran wants from Arianne, but why do you think Arianne actually has to do what her father asked of her? Aegon cannot prove that he is who he says he is. Sure, they will try their best to convince her but what if Arianne receives word of Daenerys' marriage to one Hizdahr zo Loraq or hears about her death in Daznak's Pit while being at Storm's End?

She wants revenge and resents the fact that Viserys is dead and the idea of Quentyn becoming a king. With Dany dead/married to a Ghiscari nobleman the Quentyn plan is pretty much dead regardless whether Quentyn himself is still alive. Dorne can either continue to do nothing or Arianne can *believe* Aegon is her cousin or just tell herself she does. She makes the call. And once she sends word to the armies they will march, and then nothing Doran does or says will matter. At least not in the question of war or peace.

I'm pretty sure she would lie to herself and others to get what she wants. And why shouldn't she? Aegon will be her tool to acquire some real power.

I can't foresee the story this far. I just say that I'm pretty sure Euron will crush Aegon should the boy be foolish enough to challenge him in battle. The man has Valyrian armor and seems to be a powerful sorcerer. Aegon is no match for such kind of an opponent.

All I think we can say is that Aegon will take the Iron Throne. I'd base that on George's confirming that quite a few people will sit that chair before the series is over, the cloth dragon in front of cheering crowd vision, and the fact that Aegon should have some actual power should he become a major player in the Second Dance. If the latter is not the case then he can certainly be long dead by the time Dany shows up. But I'm inclined to believe he has to play a role in that war.

If Euron challenges Dany in some naval battle - possibly in alliance with some of the Free Cities (Lys and Tyrosh) then her forces could be weakened/dispersed enough for Aegon to actually challenge her in Westeros. If she just moves her vast armada to Westeros then she could simply land at KL and the war would be over if Aegon is there at this time.

But that whole thing is pretty far in the future at this point. The chances that Aegon ever mounts one of Dany's dragons is very unlikely. He wouldn't have all that much Targaryen blood if he isn't Rhaegar's son, and it is not very likely that the other two dragons have no riders at this point. Having some convoluted dragon-stealing attempt would take a lot of chapters. I'm not saying this is impossible but I won't speculate all that much about that while the dragons are still stuck in Slaver's Bay.

Not bolder than the idea that Robert is no dragon, Harry no falcon, Mace no grape, Robb no fish, Willas no lighthouse, etc.

Were Daemon Blackfyre, Aegor Rivers, and Brynden Rivers dragons?

Oh, and in the absence of Martel inbreeding, I assume several sons of that house took their mother's name. If Doran is a sun, does that mean a child of Arianne could be a sun? 

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Were Daemon Blackfyre, Aegor Rivers, and Brynden Rivers dragons?

Sure, after they were legitimized as sons of King Aegon IV on the man's deathbed. But if they had grandchildren through the female they are not dragons. And they also weren't dragons while they bastards.

11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Oh, and in the absence of Martel inbreeding, I assume several sons of that house took their mother's name. If Doran is a sun, does that mean a child of Arianne could be a sun? 

Those are Dornish laws. In Dorne children take the name of their mother if said mother is a Ruling Lady or the Princess of Dorne. The same might also go by special permission for Ruling Ladies in the other kingdoms but we know that Rhaenyra Targaryen's sons by Laenor Velaryon were Velaryons not Targaryens, so the idea that some Blackfyre descendant through the female line is also a Blackfyre or a dragon doesn't make much sense.

If that was the case then we should also call Robert a dragon, Brown Ben Plumm and the other Plumms, all the Martells, the Penroses, the Velaryons, etc. But they clearly aren't. Nobody descended from a female Lannister is lion, no Waynwood, Corbray, or Templeton in the Vale is a direwolf, and so on.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, after they were legitimized as sons of King Aegon IV on the man's deathbed. But if they had grandchildren through the female they are not dragons. And they also weren't dragons while they bastards.

Those are Dornish laws. In Dorne children take the name of their mother if said mother is a Ruling Lady or the Princess of Dorne. The same might also go by special permission for Ruling Ladies in the other kingdoms but we know that Rhaenyra Targaryen's sons by Laenor Velaryon were Velaryons not Targaryens, so the idea that some Blackfyre descendant through the female line is also a Blackfyre or a dragon doesn't make much sense.

If that was the case then we should also call Robert a dragon, Brown Ben Plumm and the other Plumms, all the Martells, the Penroses, the Velaryons, etc. But they clearly aren't. Nobody descended from a female Lannister is lion, no Waynwood, Corbray, or Templeton in the Vale is a direwolf, and so on.

So, Tommen is a stag, right? We all know he is a bastard, but if Cersei wins her trial, his legal status as a Baratheon will be confirmed, right? 

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, Tommen is a stag, right? We all know he is a bastard, but if Cersei wins her trial, his legal status as a Baratheon will be confirmed, right? 

Sure, Robert's children by Cersei are all stags. They were born in wedlock and acknowledged by Robert Baratheon as his children. Rumors are not facts.

[PCK]

Hightower and Redwyne probably. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Robert's children by Cersei are all stags. They were born in wedlock and acknowledged by Robert Baratheon as his children. Rumors are not facts.

Did Daemon Blackfyre become a dragon when he took the name Blackfyre and adopted the black dragon as his sigil, or after his (presumed and acknowleged) father legitimized him? 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Robert's children by Cersei are all stags. They were born in wedlock and acknowledged by Robert Baratheon as his children. Rumors are not facts.

Conversely if she loses the trial by combat, at the very least Tommen's legitimacy is called into question, if not legally annulled. Incest is one of the crimes she's accused of.

Ser Kevan was unmoved. "If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason."

Kevan says as much to Mace:

“ If my niece is proved guilty of these treasons, the legitimacy of her children will be called into question. If Tommen ceases to be a king, Margaery will cease to be a queen.”

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Conversely if she loses the trial by combat, at the very least Tommen's legitimacy is called into question, if not legally annulled. Incest is one of the crimes she's accused of.

Ser Kevan was unmoved. "If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason."

Kevan says as much to Mace:

“ If my niece is proved guilty of these treasons, the legitimacy of her children will be called into question. If Tommen ceases to be a king, Margaery will cease to be a queen.”

 

In which case, under @Lord Varys strict (arbitrary?)rules of nomenclature Tommen would suddenly cease to be a stag. So, would he be a river or a hill? If he inverted the lion of Lannister, would he then be a scarlet lion? Could he adopt the name Brightroar? 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Did Daemon Blackfyre become a dragon when he took the name Blackfyre and adopted the black dragon as his sigil, or after his (presumed and acknowleged) father legitimized him? 

Daemon Blackfyre only took a sigil after he became Daemon Blackfyre when his father acknowledged him as his son. But pretty much anybody can take his own sigil. Even Dunk has his a personal sigil. If he had taken a pink dragon with a yellow tail he also would have been 'a dragon' but not in the sense we are talking about here (you and I could also take a dragon sigil - it wouldn't make us royal or Targaryens). He would not have been a Targaryen. And neither was Daemon Blackfyre while he was not yet legitimized.

55 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Conversely if she loses the trial by combat, at the very least Tommen's legitimacy is called into question, if not legally annulled. Incest is one of the crimes she's accused of.

Ser Kevan was unmoved. "If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason."

Kevan says as much to Mace:

“ If my niece is proved guilty of these treasons, the legitimacy of her children will be called into question. If Tommen ceases to be a king, Margaery will cease to be a queen.”

That is an interesting question. Since King Tommen restored the right to conduct trials - even trials against members of the royal family - to the Faith it might be that His High Holiness can actually declare a king a bastard. King Robert presumably would have been able to declare his children bastards had he believed Cersei committed adultery.

Whether this will also unmake King Tommen remains to be seen. That would come down to raw power but I'm inclined the believe that the Faith would keep the upper considering that we are talking about a pretty weak boy king.

I'd like the outcome of Cersei's trial-by-combat to go horribly awry with Ser Robert butchering his opponent but revealing both his true identity and nature in the process, resulting in the High Septon denouncing Cersei and Tommen as abominations and blasphemers. I'm reasonably positive that the Seven and the Faith don't look kindly on people who use black magic to betray the gods.

8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

In which case, under @Lord Varys strict (arbitrary?)rules of nomenclature Tommen would suddenly cease to be a stag. So, would he be a river or a hill? If he inverted the lion of Lannister, would he then be a scarlet lion? Could he adopt the name Brightroar? 

If Cersei's children would be officially declared bastards in a sense that was binding to anybody - which could, perhaps, only be done by the Faith or another king - then they might either become Waters or Hills. But it is actually more likely that they get no names just as they had no names in Stannis' letter - he just talks about the boys Joffrey and Tommen and the girl Myrcella - because only recognized royal or noble bastards get the traditional names. And one doubts whether Cersei will have the time to formally recognize them as Lannister bastards if they are declared abominations born of incest.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Daemon Blackfyre only took a sigil after he became Daemon Blackfyre when his father acknowledged him as his son. But pretty much anybody can take his own sigil. Even Dunk has his a personal sigil. If he had taken a pink dragon with a yellow tail he also would have been 'a dragon' but not in the sense we are talking about here (you and I could also take a dragon sigil - it wouldn't make us royal or Targaryens). He would not have been a Targaryen. And neither was Daemon Blackfyre while he was not yet legitimized.

Ok, so Jon Snow is not a Stark or a Targaryen, right? So he is not a direwolf, but just a Snow, right? But if he had sworn his sword to Stannis, he would have been transformed into a direwolf, right? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd like the outcome of Cersei's trial-by-combat to go horribly awry with Ser Robert butchering his opponent but revealing both his true identity and nature in the process, resulting in the High Septon denouncing Cersei and Tommen as abominations and blasphemers. I'm reasonably positive that the Seven and the Faith don't look kindly on people who use black magic to betray the gods.

You just might get your wish...

Quote

Near the kennels a group of men-at-arms were fighting a pair of dogs. Tyrion stopped long enough to see the smaller dog tear half the face off the larger one, and earned a few coarse laughs by observing that the loser now resembled Sandor Clegane.

Tyrion II, Storm

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ok, so Jon Snow is not a Stark or a Targaryen, right? So he is not a direwolf, but just a Snow, right? But if he had sworn his sword to Stannis, he would have been transformed into a direwolf, right? 

If he had taken a direwolf sigil even before Stannis had legitimized him in this hypothetical scenario he might also have been 'a direwolf' in a sense, but not in the same sense as a trueborn Stark is. In that sense he would be a direwolf after he became legitimized.

But this has nothing to do with the original point that Aegon as a Blackfyre descendant would never be the son of a male Blackfyre and thus never eligible to bear the Blackfyre name or the Blackfyre arms. At least not according to Westerosi customs. He could include the sigil of his Blackfyre ancestor - whoever he or she might be - into his personal arms just as Rhaenyra included Laenor's seahorse and Aemma's moon-and-falcon into her own banner (and just as Harrold Hardyng also bears the Arryn sigil along with the arms of Houses Waynwood and Hardyng).

But he could never bear only the black dragon on a red field as a real Blackfyre can because he simply isn't a Blackfyre.

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You just might get your wish...

Tyrion II, Storm

Glad that you agree with me. I just don't see what those dogs have anything to do with that.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Glad that you agree with me. I just don't see what those dogs have anything to do with that.

I know you don't, Sheldon. You have no song in your heart. You approach ASOIAF as if it were a history. That of course is an element of ASOIAF, but it is also a high fantasy in literature, a work of art, a song. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I know you don't, Sheldon. You have no song in your heart. You approach ASOIAF as if it were a history. That of course is an element of ASOIAF, but it is also a high fantasy in literature, a work of art, a song. 

It is a work of fiction written by a man who repeatedly confessed that he doesn't like to write stuff when he knows the ending or all the details. A man who said he knows the broad strokes where the story is going but has no idea what's going to happen to a lot of minor characters.

If the series was finished one could actually look after such parallels spreading throughout all the books but right now we are dealing with an unfinished story.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I know you don't, Sheldon.

Arghhhhhhhhhhh  u 2 (LV & LM) I couldn't help myself when I saw the word Sheldon. I hadda contribute.

 

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a work of fiction written by a man who repeatedly confessed that he doesn't like to write stuff when he knows the ending or all the details

In other words I ain't gettin' an ending