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Jon Snow and Theon Greyjoy


Wolf's Bane

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I see a lot of similarities between Theon and Jon.  Theon committed his heinous acts against his adoptive family because he was empty inside.  Theon had a major character flaw, lacked true self-esteem, and all that was made worse when his father gave him up for hostage.  Theon felt discarded and unworthy, unloved by his family.  Yet, he hung on to his identity as Ironborn and wanted so much to belong to them after his meeting with dad and sis.  Because of his low esteem, his need to be accepted, he was prone to do something bad.  Jon Snow had a big chip on his shoulder, which caused him to be rather abrasive to people and have negative views.  If you read that chapter in aGoT, during the Robert's banquet, Jon was very judgmental and very harsh with people he barely knew.  He was a bitter young man.  Like Theon, he wanted acceptance.  Unlike Theon, he found acceptance from little Arya, who cared not whether he was bastard or not.  I think this made Jon vulnerable in the same way Theon was.  He had excessive affection for Arya, bordering on the unhealthy.  That led him to betray the men he was sworn to lead and to send a small attack force to the Boltons. 

What I am saying is, both men did not really act impetuously.  They were emotionally damaged goods, with chips on their shoulders.  They were on the edge and the wrong thing could make them do something terrible.  Which they both did.  Their actions were premeditated and calculated, but that's because their mental and emotional algorithms are flawed.  Jon and Theon are very much alike.  One could say, Jon's is the greater crime.  In many ways, they parallel one another.  Boys who never felt they belonged.  

Please, share your thoughts. 

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I don't see how Jon's crime could possibly equal Theon's. Theon murdered two children to keep from looking weak Jon sent some people to save what he thought was his sister. Now I do agree that their lifes shaped them as people, and that's part of GRRM's brilliance as a writer. However Jon is far and away more honorable and just a all around better person than Theon.  Being half drunk and a little snarky doesn't change that. I am no fan of Jon but I just can't get behind this argument. 

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Jon and Theon are nothing alike. 

Nothing about Jon's affection for Arya is unhealthy it's the most healthy sibling/relationship in the whole series he would do just as more for Sansa if she was in that situation I have no doubt. 

Land yeah Jon is harsh and was judge mental at the feast but some of his judgements were spot on he was just being a kid. And Jon has never done anything as terrible as what Theon did. 

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Did Martin juxtapose Theon and Jon? A little bit here and there, he connects both to Stannis, the Girl in Grey could easily been Asha or fake Arya. Theon betrayed his adoptive brother Robb, Jon betrayed his adoptive brothers, though different circumstances, but that just fits contrasting positions. Jon would double cross Mance, Yiggy and the Wildlings who had accepted and spared Jon as well. I don;t even know if you could call them juxtaposed but they share some similar ideas with contrasting themes. Like both betrayed their adopted families Jon's brothers and OF course Theon and the Starks. Though it is a little more complicated with the watch. To save face and show strength Jon executed Slynt and that clearly involved some revenge for his father. Theon also sought some measure of revenge and that involved his father. Theon had trouble controlling Winterfell and executed the boys though another Snow executing Ser Rodrick seems more a parallel than Theon. Theon had trouble controlling Winterfell, Jon had problems controlling the Wildlings and the watch. Osha and Yig, some similarities but it seems rather stretched. Could be different people, different paths the same results, all roads lead to Rome.   

 

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I guess you can make the case for this comparison, but Theon has more in common with that flop Quentyn:

1) Both were handed out as wards/hostages to settle a family feud

2) Both fear the mockery of an older sister who is more liked 

3) Both strive to earn the respect of their father

4) Both relate more to their foster family than they do to their biological relatives

5) Both wanted to become an official part of said foster familes by marrying Sansa and Gwyneth Yronwood, respectively

6) Both have absent mothers - Mellario because she left and Alannys because she suffered from a crippling depression after the loss of her sons

7) Both do some pretty stupid shit to prove their worth to others

It's for stuff like this that the Quentyn character just grinds my gears. He's just a very poor rehash of the vastly superior and far more complex and interesting Theon

 

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I don't think it's fair to say Theon never found acceptance/friendship within the Stark household. Theon and Robb seemed to have a pretty good relationship, and Robb treats Theon as one of his closest advisors when he's serving as Lord of Winterfell and during the war. It's mentioned several times that Theon was raised with the Stark children, and he even says "Lord Eddard is a second father to me" in AGoT. He at least had as much of a place and friendship at Winterfell as Jon did.

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I don't see how Jon's crime could possibly equal Theon's. Theon murdered two children to keep from looking weak Jon sent some people to save what he thought was his sister. Now I do agree that their lifes shaped them as people, and that's part of GRRM's brilliance as a writer. However Jon is far and away more honorable and just a all around better person than Theon.  Being half drunk and a little snarky doesn't change that. I am no fan of Jon but I just can't get behind this argument. 

Have you heard of Vlad the Impaler? He put entire villages to the sword to save ten times the number of villages. So not looking weak is extremely important for a feudal lord.

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I guess you can make the case for this comparison, but Theon has more in common with that flop Quentyn:

1) Both were handed out as wards/hostages to settle a family feud

2) Both fear the mockery of an older sister who is more liked 

3) Both strive to earn the respect of their father

4) Both relate more to their foster family than they do to their biological relatives

5) Both wanted to become an official part of said foster familes by marrying Sansa and Gwyneth Yronwood, respectively

6) Both have absent mothers - Mellario because she left and Alannys because she suffered from a crippling depression after the loss of her sons

7) Both do some pretty stupid shit to prove their worth to others

It's for stuff like this that the Quentyn character just grinds my gears. He's just a very poor rehash of the vastly superior and far more complex and interesting Theon

 

Well if they are meant to contrast then yes, nice work by the way. Theon was clearly meant to be charming and very much not like Quen in appearance and personality. Though the whole Theon/Reek Ramsey thing is where Theon really gets deep. I don't know a parallel for that part of Theon's life, Sansa to an extent with Joff. Nobody has anything else that really compares to play time with Ramsey save Jeyne a non POV, though she still has all her parts, may loose part of her nose. I can't think of anything else like Reek in the series, I mean yes original Reek but we never meet him and I don't even want to know what all was wrong with that guy, but my first guess is a lot. 

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To some extent, Theon and Jon are foils.

- In the Stark household, Theon is a trueborn outsider, Jon is a bastard insider.

- Theon is obsessed with birthright. Jon (officially) lacks birthright (and renounces it).

- Theon takes Winterfell, but can't hold it. Jon is offered Winterfell, and refuses it.

- Theon prefers bow and arrow. Jon prefers the sword.

- Theon's Dad rebelled against Robert Baratheon. Robert Baratheon rebelled against Jon's (likely) Dad.

- Sexuality defines Theon's identity. Lack of sexuality defines Jon.

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To some extent, Theon and Jon are foils.

- In the Stark household, Theon is a trueborn outsider, Jon is a bastard insider.

- Theon is obsessed with birthright. Jon (officially) lacks birthright (and renounces it).

- Theon takes Winterfell, but can't hold it. Jon is offered Winterfell, and refuses it.

- Theon prefers bow and arrow. Jon prefers the sword.

- Theon's Dad rebelled against Robert Baratheon. Robert Baratheon rebelled against Jon's (likely) Dad.

- Sexuality defines Theon's identity. Lack of sexuality defines Jon.

I came here to say this but you beat me too it. I'll add some things though, but first of all I have to say that the Starks are NOT Theon's adoptive family. Ned did not take Theon home out of the goodness of his heart, Theon was his hostage, he was a political tool to him (which I don't blame him for btw, it was common practice in that world) The Starks were Theon's captors, call it what it is.

Ok with that out of the way, here's some more reasons why Theon and Jon are foils:

Jon is observant of others, Theon is very self-absorbed.

- Jon thinks before he acts, Theon acts before he thinks

- Jon is more introverted while Theon is more extroverted

- Jon acts more rationally, Theon acts more emotionally.

 

 

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Yeah, I'm going to agree with those saying that Jon and Theon are closer to polar opposites.  A few surface similarities, of course, but they're two of the most different people in the series.  

Another thing I would note is that Jon is generally competent but fails at the end of Dance, while Theon is generally incompetent but succeeds at the end of Dance.  

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Yeah, I'm going to agree with those saying that Jon and Theon are closer to polar opposites.  A few surface similarities, of course, but they're two of the most different people in the series.  

Another thing I would note is that Jon is generally competent but fails at the end of Dance, while Theon is generally incompetent but succeeds at the end of Dance.  

Good one! that's a nice parallel.

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I would argue that Theon was a hostage and therefore, no longer had any obligations to the Starks after his father decided to rebel again.  If you look at it this way, if Robb is anything like Ned, Theon's life would be forfeit when it becomes known that Balon is about to rebel for the second time.  Theon really had little choice if he wanted to continue living.  Look what Robb did to Walder and to Karstark.  Do you all think Robb would allow Theon to live after he finds out that Balon rebelled?  I don't think so.  This is Robb, "Theon, you and I were as brothers, but your father is in rebellion.  You must bear his sins."  CHOP

Don't get me wrong, Theon did some heinous things, like killing those two boys from the mill.  However, since his family had declared war on the Starks, you could argue it was a war tactic, a poor one, to take Winterfell.  But, a war tactic nevertheless. 

From this angle, what Jon did could be considered worse.  Jon betrayed men who followed him, tolerated his decisions though they disagreed.  Men who elected him to lead them and uphold the laws of the Night Watch.  Jon's actions not only damaged the Night Watch but it might be the straw that finally breaks down the watch.  Rather than having a watch prepared to take on the Others, his actions against the Boltons, all just for his sister, could become the reason the Others get past the wall.  I know, on the surface it seems like a good thing to go rescue your sister from a marriage that she doesn't want.  But look deeper and it becomes obvious that what Jon did was damaging to the realm, very, very wrong. 

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I would argue that Theon was a hostage and therefore, no longer had any obligations to the Starks after his father decided to rebel again.  If you look at it this way, if Robb is anything like Ned, Theon's life would be forfeit when it becomes known that Balon is about to rebel for the second time.  Theon really had little choice if he wanted to continue living.  Look what Robb did to Walder and to Karstark.  Do you all think Robb would allow Theon to live after he finds out that Balon rebelled?  I don't think so.  This is Robb, "Theon, you and I were as brothers, but your father is in rebellion.  You must bear his sins."  CHOP

Don't get me wrong, Theon did some heinous things, like killing those two boys from the mill.  However, since his family had declared war on the Starks, you could argue it was a war tactic, a poor one, to take Winterfell.  But, a war tactic nevertheless. 

From this angle, what Jon did could be considered worse.  Jon betrayed men who followed him, tolerated his decisions though they disagreed.  Men who elected him to lead them and uphold the laws of the Night Watch.  Jon's actions not only damaged the Night Watch but it might be the straw that finally breaks down the watch.  Rather than having a watch prepared to take on the Others, his actions against the Boltons, all just for his sister, could become the reason the Others get past the wall.  I know, on the surface it seems like a good thing to go rescue your sister from a marriage that she doesn't want.  But look deeper and it becomes obvious that what Jon did was damaging to the realm, very, very wrong. 

I am a huge Theon fan but I have to disagree with you on some things. I really don't think Robb would have killed Theon. They were really good friends, I mean, Bran is jealous because Robb spents so much time with Theon (and Jon). Also, Robb is nothing like Ned if you ask me, and even if he were like Ned he wouldn't have killed Theon because he was close to Theon, Ned tends to make exceptions for the people he's close to (he emotionally distanced himself from Theon for a reason) That being said I still think Theon had little choice, family is everything in a feudal society, not siding with them would have gotten him even more disrepect, plus he would have to leave his inheritence and more importantly the acceptence and feeling of belonging he so craved behind. Robb would have probably appreciated it, but no one else would have.

I am personally of the opinion that Jon did nothing wrong, mainly because I disagree with the whole notion that if you make a vow you have to hold to it no matter what. In many occasions this vow will go against doing the right thing (see Jaime) then doing the right thing shouldn't be considered a bad thing. I also think that the idea that when someone pledges to the night's watch they can't go and help their family is ridiculous, it goes against everything humans are. Don't get me wrong, I get why these things are nessacary in a society like this, I get that it's the only way they can control people properly, so practically I understand it, in theory i'm still against it. Like I'm against in all cases in theory because I don't think it's ever worth it, but in practice I know it's the only solution sometimes.


This is all just speaking from my perspective of course but i'm an individualist, I really really hate collectivism because it leads to terrible things. so from my perspective what Jon has done might have been damaging to the realm but the individual is more important than the "realm" a person doing something that is bad for the system but good for them (and certain others) isn't bad, it's their right as an individual. If it's all about the realm it's easy to say "this person isn't contributing to the realm, besides they disagree so they're actually bad for the realm so we are no justified in stripping this person of their personal rights, in the name of the realm"

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Have you heard of Vlad the Impaler? He put entire villages to the sword to save ten times the number of villages. So not looking weak is extremely important for a feudal lord.

Are we really comparing Vlad to Theon? Vlad was defended his people Theon was trying to hold a castle he could never have held and killed two boys for basically no reason.  The really odd part is Theon had a beautiful plan if he would have just sacked Winterfell and taken Bran and Rickon hostage he would have been a iron born hero. Instead he does the weakest stupidest thing in the books and pays dearly for it. Vlad III held his lands for 22 years I believe and he never needed to prove he wasn't weak Theon was weak and proved it by his actions. 

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{snipped a bit}

Don't get me wrong, Theon did some heinous things, like killing those two boys from the mill.  However, since his family had declared war on the Starks, you could argue it was a war tactic, a poor one, to take Winterfell.  (1)But, a war tactic nevertheless. 

From this angle, what Jon did could be considered worse.  Jon betrayed men who followed him, tolerated his decisions though they disagreed.  Men who elected him to lead them and uphold the laws of the Night Watch.  Jon's actions not only damaged the Night Watch but it might be the straw that finally breaks down the watch.  Rather than having a watch prepared to take on the Others, his actions against the Boltons, (2)all just for his sister, could become the reason the Others get past the wall.  I know, on the surface it seems like a good thing to go rescue your sister from a marriage that she doesn't want.  But look deeper and it becomes obvious that what Jon did was damaging to the realm, very, very wrong. 

(1) It was a war tactic that Theon had no business doing in the first place. Balon had no interest in taking Winterfell; he's an idiot but even he knew that taking and then maintaining possession of a castle so far inland would be counter-productive and a waste of supplies and men. Theon's orders were to reave up and down the coast, not march inland taking the heart of Stark territory.

Remember, the remaining Northern lords were quarrelling among themselves: Ser Rodrick attacking Ramsay Snow over the Hornwood lands, Manderley grabbing bits and pieces of the Hornwood lands for himself, and many of the others off away in the south. Piecemeal attacks up and down the coast would likely not cause the North to unite against the invader, while taking Winterfell certainly would.

I understand that you acknowledged that this "war tactic" was a "poor one", but Theon disobeyed his orders and completely destroyed his father's (tiny) chance of success by his action. That does not make what he did a "war tactic".

(2) It wasn't all just for his sister, though. I don't believe it was about rescuing his sister really (although Jon privately hoped that would be a result). The sender of the Pink Letter announced that an army was on its way to attack Castle Black from the south, where it is undefended. Jon thought it would be better to march south and meet that army before it had a chance to get to them. It's a much sounder strategy than them just being sitting ducks waiting to be attacked at Castle Black. That's the threat Jon was responding to, not the predicament of his sister.

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Are we really comparing Vlad to Theon? Vlad was defended his people Theon was trying to hold a castle he could never have held and killed two boys for basically no reason.  The really odd part is Theon had a beautiful plan if he would have just sacked Winterfell and taken Bran and Rickon hostage he would have been a iron born hero. Instead he does the weakest stupidest thing in the books and pays dearly for it. Vlad III held his lands for 22 years I believe and he never needed to prove he wasn't weak Theon was weak and proved it by his actions. 

Yeah... the guy who conquered Winterfell with 30 men is weak... the guy who survived being Ramsay's slave for 9 months is weak...

The problem isn't that he IS weak, the problem is that he BELIEVES himself to be weak.

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Jon and Theon had similar beginnings to very different paths.   There are initial surface similarities as noted previously.   However, let's not get so hung up on who's crimes were worse.    Everyone was shocked at the extent of Theon's conquest power hunger at Winterfell.   I certainly didn't expect the extremes.   We were given far more indication of the potential danger facing Jon...and he did what he did anyway.   An argument could be made that Theon was ignorant of how badly events could have turned but Jon could not claim ignorance as there were clear indicators.   This makes them neither similar nor parallel.   It makes them young and inexperienced.  There is a part of me that hopes these experiences will directly influence the characters they will become in the future story, both having to make their places in the struggles as well as deal with the real consequences of oath or faith breaking.    Then again, I also hope they both find homes and families to truly belong to.   

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Yeah... the guy who conquered Winterfell with 30 men is weak... the guy who survived being Ramsay's slave for 9 months is weak...
The problem isn't that he IS weak, the problem is that he BELIEVES himself to be weak.

He had a good plan for taking Winterfell but that hardly makes him a strong person. Being a mentally broken slave hardly makes you strong he is weak minded weak willed, and pretty much all around a weak attention starved glory hound.

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He had a good plan for taking Winterfell but that hardly makes him a strong person. Being a mentally broken slave hardly makes you strong he is weak minded weak willed, and pretty much all around a weak attention starved glory hound.

So basically people with mental illness are weak, and people who are abused/tortured are weak. congradulations, i'm disgusted.

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