The Grimdark Appreciation thread III

[C.T. Phipps]

The second thread is available here.

A thread for discussing grimdark in all its glories!

Continue any discussion here.

 

[Magnar of Skagos]

Is it just me or is every time that one guy shows up, the thread closes? What a coincidence. 

Anyway, I don't feel like Ned is an anti-hero, at all.

[C.T. Phipps]

I think we just hit the post limit that time.

[peterbound]

Is it just me or is every time that one guy shows up, the thread closes? What a coincidence. 

Anyway, I don't feel like Ned is an anti-hero, at all.

'That guy' wasn't the problem, nor do I think you actually understand how the forum, post counts, or Gen chat works.

Saying that, I think CT have more thread kills than I. So I'm not sure you're pointing your finger in the right direction.

Also, I'm really surprised how much stock people put into labels. Between this, spec fic, and the confusion those terms cause, I'm starting to think we need to iron this shit out.

[Richard Writhen]

That guy is deff the problem lawl. So, grimdark ... working on Beyond Redemption. Entertaining, very gross ...

[Darth Richard II]

...what the what?

[peterbound]

Well the thread reached the post limit and Skagos blamed Puntificator for getting it locked because he got the first thread locked, then Peter implied it was Phipps because . . . reasons I guess?

So rather than going for a record lock on this one let's change the subject... So that there Abercrombie fella, I hear he writes his manuscripts in the blood of dead kittens, true or false?

Shockingly, there are more threads they people participate in outside of those focused on grim dark. Tough concept, I know, so the idea that I was referring to this tread/topic is a bit narrow sighted.

And no. Not dead kittens, just the blood of his enemies.

[Darth Richard II]

Eh, thread locks are easy. Just mention Bakker and Women.

[Magnar of Skagos]

 

'That guy' wasn't the problem, nor do I think you actually understand how the forum, post counts, or Gen chat works.

 

I fully understand how the forum works, sir. I was merely stating an observation that twice now the Grimdark thread has closed shortly after Puntifactor (probably spelling that wrong) showed up and sparked an argument with the whole "grimmer-than-thou" attitude.

 

Anyways. Picked up Prince of Thorns today after hearing some good things about it. Can't wait to give it a read. Anything I should know going in?

[Darth Richard II]

But the last thread was closed because it hit the post limit...

[Puntificator]

Well the thread reached the post limit and Skagos blamed Puntificator for getting it locked because he got the first thread locked, then Peter implied it was Phipps because . . . reasons I guess?

 

I didn't get the first one closed. It would be more accurate to say he thinks I got it closed, which has as much validity as his thinking I got the second one closed.

Has anyone else read the very recently published Rupert Wong, Cannibal Chef, by Cassandra Khaw? It's one of the best mixes of grimdark with "grimhumor" I've ever read. I.e., I recommend it. Here's the marketing blurb: 

"It’s not unusual to work two jobs in this day and age, but sorcerer and former triad soldier Rupert Wong’s life is more complicated than most. By day, he makes human hors d’oeuvres for a dynasty of ghouls; by night, he pushes pencils for the Ten Chinese Hells. Of course, it never seems to be enough to buy him a new car—or his restless, flesh-eating-ghost girlfriend passage from the reincarnation cycle—until opportunity comes smashing through his window. 

In Kuala Lumpur, where deities from a handful of major faiths tip-toe around each other and damned souls number in the millions, it’s important to tread carefully. Now the Dragon King of the South wants to throw Rupert right in it. The ocean god’s daughter and her once-mortal husband have been murdered, leaving a single clue: bloodied feathers from the Greek furies. It’s a clue that could start a war between pantheons, and Rupert’s stuck in the middle. Success promises wealth, power and freedom, and failure... doesn’t."

[Puntificator]

Another very recent debut novel that is a superb adult dark fantasy not getting enough buzz, is M.H. Boroson's The Girl with Ghost Eyes. Any of you read it? This one's blurb reads:

"It's the end of the nineteenth century in San Francisco's Chinatown, and ghost hunters from the Maoshan traditions of Daoism keep malevolent spiritual forces at bay. Li-lin, the daughter of a renowned Daoshi exorcist, is a young widow burdened with yin eyes—-the unique ability to see the spirit world. Her spiritual visions and the death of her husband bring shame to Li-lin and her father—and shame is not something this immigrant family can afford.

When a sorcerer cripples her father, terrible plans are set in motion, and only Li-lin can stop them. To aid her are her martial arts and a peachwood sword, her burning paper talismans, and a wisecracking spirit in the form of a human eyeball tucked away in her pocket. Navigating the dangerous alleys and backrooms of a male-dominated Chinatown, Li-lin must confront evil spirits, gangsters, and soulstealers before the sorcerer's ritual summons an ancient evil that could burn Chinatown to the ground.

With a rich and inventive historical setting, nonstop martial arts action, authentic Chinese magic, and bizarre monsters from Asian folklore, The Girl with Ghost Eyes is also the poignant story of a young immigrant searching to find her place beside the long shadow of a demanding father and the stigma of widowhood. In a Chinatown caught between tradition and modernity, one woman may be the key to holding everything together." 

[Magnar of Skagos]

But the last thread was closed because it hit the post limit...

I'm not trying to mean he alone caused the grimdark thread to get locked. The first thing I think of when I see a locked thread is that some sort of trolling or flame war went on. Force of habit. Westeros is the only forum I know where they lock a thread after twenty pages or so. Sometimes I have to remind myself

[Puntificator]

 

I fully understand how the forum works, sir. I was merely stating an observation that twice now the Grimdark thread has closed shortly after Puntifactor (probably spelling that wrong) showed up and sparked an argument with the whole "grimmer-than-thou" attitude.

 

 

I didn't just "show up"; I had been in both threads from almost the beginning of their existences (I joined each on the day after they were started). So they didn't close shortly after I showed up. And I didn't spark any arguments: I responded to comments (some of them inflammatory) just as I am doing now. If this thread gets closed now, it will be YOU who just showed up and sparked an argument. So can we please move on and avoid these kinds of misrepresentations that are completely unnecessary and off-topic?

 

[Puntificator]

Has anyone read M.D. Lachlan's great Craw series of books? It's grimdark historical fantasy that was supposed to be a trilogy, but so far has reached four books: Wolfsangel; Fenrir; Lord of Slaughter; Valkyrie's Song.

[peterbound]

Ha. My ego lead me to believe you were saying I was the one that got the threads locked.

If that's not the case, my apologies, press on.

And yes, pontificator is a bit of an annoyance, they come and go though. Just got to ride it out. Wait until the next wave of the floob moves in post season premier.

[C.T. Phipps]

An interesting case of grimdark for me is the work of Scott Lynch (best wishes to his personal recovery) in the Gentleman Bastards series. I really would like to give credit to that series for managing a surprisingly deft balance. It is both grimdark as well as hilarious. It is a grimdark series set in a hellish world of visceral violence, corruption, and almost nightmarish caricature of Renaissance Italy yet stars a swashbuckling rogue with his near-godlike genius associate. It is a series which can go from horrific death to absolute absurdity and it juggles those extremes with a jongleur's grace.

I'm a person who tends to think of humor as a natural reaction to the horrors and absurdities of the world. As Mel Brooks would say, "tragedy is when I prick my finger, humor is when you fall into a hole and die." So, I think this isn't actually too of a problem even as a lot of people think humor equates to lightness. Instead, much of the humor in the GB books is based around dealing with how utterly rotten the system is. While obviously not in George R.R. Martin's Planetos, I think it actually manages to convey a lot of the attitudes I think would be prevalent in a story set in, say, Braavos.

The first book, The Lies of Locke Lamora is the grimdarkiest of the books as it starts with Locke and company at the top of their game before showing just how far their group can fall. However, I think all of the books have some very good moments of darkness to them. Red Seas under Red Skies is a work I've mentioned I wasn't too fond of the end of but in terms of grimness is probably the second best. The Republic of Thieves is the lightest of the books and, honestly, verges closer to fantasy than the others but I still have a fondness for it due to the Weekend at Bernie's plot of which I'll say no more as well as the subversiveness of the Sabetha character.

There's a lot of truly great grimdark moments from the series which stick in the mind. Scott Lynch has a way of creating scenes which manage to stick in the mind well after you depart from his world and that's a skill every author should envy (I know I do). I can't quite pick which one does the best though I do admit I love the human-chess and its humiliations from the second book. The whole thing encapsulates a delightfully twisted anarchist sentiment of the poor allowing themselves to be horrifically abused and debased for coin while the rich indulge their most sadistic impulses just for the sheer hell of indulging it. Then make it all a show for the onlookers that puts in mind the lowest form of TV.

To use Locke Lamora as a counterpoint to the Ned Stark debate, he IS a morally ambiguous hero as he is a figure whose only virtues are that he strikes at people who really need striking against as well as undying loyalty to his adopted family. Yet, he's in such a rotten awful world that you stand with him anyway.

[Magnar of Skagos]

Ha. My ego lead me to believe you were saying I was the one that got the threads locked.

 

If that's not the case, my apologies, press on.

 

And yes, pontificator is a bit of an annoyance, they come and go though. Just got to ride it out. Wait until the next wave of the floob moves in post season premier.

No, I wasn't talking about you  Sorry about the confusion.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Anyways. Picked up Prince of Thorns today after hearing some good things about it. Can't wait to give it a read. Anything I should know going in?

Fast moving and very much a fantasy Clockwork Orange.

[SeanF]

An interesting case of grimdark for me is the work of Scott Lynch (best wishes to his personal recovery) in the Gentleman Bastards series. I really would like to give credit to that series for managing a surprisingly deft balance. It is both grimdark as well as hilarious. It is a grimdark series set in a hellish world of visceral violence, corruption, and almost nightmarish caricature of Renaissance Italy yet stars a swashbuckling rogue with his near-godlike genius associate. It is a series which can go from horrific death to absolute absurdity and it juggles those extremes with a jongleur's grace.

I'm a person who tends to think of humor as a natural reaction to the horrors and absurdities of the world. As Mel Brooks would say, "tragedy is when I prick my finger, humor is when you fall into a hole and die." So, I think this isn't actually too of a problem even as a lot of people think humor equates to lightness. Instead, much of the humor in the GB books is based around dealing with how utterly rotten the system is. While obviously not in George R.R. Martin's Planetos, I think it actually manages to convey a lot of the attitudes I think would be prevalent in a story set in, say, Braavos.

The first book, The Lies of Locke Lamora is the grimdarkiest of the books as it starts with Locke and company at the top of their game before showing just how far their group can fall. However, I think all of the books have some very good moments of darkness to them. Red Seas under Red Skies is a work I've mentioned I wasn't too fond of the end of but in terms of grimness is probably the second best. The Republic of Thieves is the lightest of the books and, honestly, verges closer to fantasy than the others but I still have a fondness for it due to the Weekend at Bernie's plot of which I'll say no more as well as the subversiveness of the Sabetha character.

There's a lot of truly great grimdark moments from the series which stick in the mind. Scott Lynch has a way of creating scenes which manage to stick in the mind well after you depart from his world and that's a skill every author should envy (I know I do). I can't quite pick which one does the best though I do admit I love the human-chess and its humiliations from the second book. The whole thing encapsulates a delightfully twisted anarchist sentiment of the poor allowing themselves to be horrifically abused and debased for coin while the rich indulge their most sadistic impulses just for the sheer hell of indulging it. Then make it all a show for the onlookers that puts in mind the lowest form of TV.

To use Locke Lamora as a counterpoint to the Ned Stark debate, he IS a morally ambiguous hero as he is a figure whose only virtues are that he strikes at people who really need striking against as well as undying loyalty to his adopted family. Yet, he's in such a rotten awful world that you stand with him anyway.

I like the series but...........

We discussed how most of the nobility in the The First Law come over as caricatures.  I felt much the same in this series (there are exceptions, such as the Spider, or Don and Donna Salvara), but these are people who buy kittens for their children to torture (!) and enjoy watching members of the lower classes being beaten within an inch of their lives at Salon Corbeau.  That's not really like Braavos at all.  Braavos is the most economically advanced society in Martin's world, and one of the few places where the lower classes can openly make fun of their social superiors.  I couldn't really understand why Locke would care whether such an outrageously decadent bunch were reduced to the status of vegetables.

That said, I really like the portrayal of the criminal underworld, which seems convincing and authentic to me, even down to the description of fellow criminals as "the Right People" (an expression used by Tony Soprano).