Magnar of Skagos Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 So, random thought exercise:Do zombie horror stories count as grimdark? In my mind, that's just horror. When I read "grimdark" I always assume its a subgenre (may not be the right word) of fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 In my mind, that's just horror. When I read "grimdark" I always assume its a subgenre (may not be the right word) of fantasy.It's one of those things that I think exists on the borderline because I tend to think horror is the supernatural or terrifying intruding on the mundane. Zombie shows like The Walking Dead franchise are about a new reality (fantasy) where things have turned into a horrible new reality based on the fantastic. For example, The Last of Us is science-fiction in the same vein as I am Legend. Which, I think, qualifies it as grimdark applicable.Is it grimdark?No.But I think of it as proto-grimdark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar of Skagos Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 It's one of those things that I think exists on the borderline because I tend to think horror is the supernatural or terrifying intruding on the mundane. Zombie shows like The Walking Dead franchise are about a new reality (fantasy) where things have turned into a horrible new reality based on the fantastic. For example, The Last of Us is science-fiction in the same vein as I am Legend. Which, I think, qualifies it as grimdark applicable.Is it grimdark?No.But I think of it as proto-grimdark.Very true. I think that for me, I always associate it with fantasy specifically because the first (and virtually only times) I hear about it is in a fantasy context. That being said, I don't really feel the need to dictate what grimdark should or shouldn't be. Just my own two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 So, random thought exercise:Do zombie horror stories count as grimdark? This Dark Earth by John Hornor Jacobs has zombies. It's also pretty grim, and quite dark. And while not Jacob's best work, it's still pretty damn good and well worth a read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Do zombie horror stories count as grimdark? It depends on the specific story. Some definitely would be grimdark. A cinematic example is Night of the Living Dead. A novel that i believe fits as grimdark is The Reapers Are the Angels by Alden Bell. A zombie horror novel that I don't consider to be grimdark is Patient Zero by Jonathan Maberry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 .Joe Abercrombie can be George Martin.And Martin?Well, no one reads him anyway.That's because George Martin's All You Need Is Ears and With a Little Help From My Friends (aka Summer of Love) are out of print. But lots of people still listen to the albums he produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I thought horror didn't count as grimdark, since grimdark contains elements of horror, thus making stuff like Alien not grimdark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 I thought horror didn't count as grimdark, since grimdark contains elements of horror, thus making stuff like Alien not grimdark.I think the genres are related the way Urban Fantasy and Horror can be related.Though someone had a good argument on it.http://www.tor.com/2015/11/02/is-it-grimdark-or-is-it-horror/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I think the genres are related the way Urban Fantasy and Horror can be related.Though someone had a good argument on it.e that articke.http://www.tor.com/2015/11/02/is-it-grimdark-or-is-it-horror/I like that article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I greatly admire the writer of the article as an author of dark fantasy, but I hate the article itself. It's a very bad one, ill-informed, with errors and flawed thinking, as demonstrated in comment #8 to the article. Teresa makes some outright mistakes.As I said earlier, there is absolutely no reason why a horror story cannot also be a grimdark story. I don't understand why people don't get this. A horror story is simply any story intended to arouse feelings of horror or dread. Such a story can also be a fantasy story, a science fiction story, a western, a spy story, a crime story, a "thriller," etc. It can belong to sub-genres of these, such as urban fantasy or sword and sorcery. And it can be grimdark. Genre and sub-genre terms are not mutually exclusive; never have been and likely never will be.Edit: Up until very recently the World Fantasy Award trophy was a statuette modelled on H.P. Lovecraft, whose work is well-recognized as horror. Why do you suppose a major fantasy award used a writer of horror to represent the fantasy genre? Obviously, because Lovecraft's horror stories are also considered to be fantasy stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 I would actually agree with you Puntificator and made my own disagreement. However, when discussing a subject like the totally of a genre it's good to get opinions both big and small on the subject. Were I to make a diagram with circles, it would look like five circles.FantasyHorrorNoirSci-FiWith a circle in the center called Grimdark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I greatly admire the writer of the article as an author of dark fantasy, but I hate the article itself. It's a very bad one, ill-informed, with errors and flawed thinking, as demonstrated in comment #8 to the article. Teresa makes some outright mistakes.As I said earlier, there is absolutely no reason why a horror story cannot also be a grimdark story. I don't understand why people don't get this. A horror story is simply any story intended to arouse feelings of horror or dread. Such a story can also be a fantasy story, a science fiction story, a western, a spy story, a crime story, a "thriller," etc. It can belong to sub-genres of these, such as urban fantasy or sword and sorcery. And it can be grimdark. Genre and sub-genre terms are not mutually exclusive; never have been and likely never will be.Edit: Up until very recently the World Fantasy Award trophy was a statuette modelled on H.P. Lovecraft, whose work is well-recognized as horror. Why do you suppose a major fantasy award used a writer of horror to represent the fantasy genre? Obviously, because Lovecraft's horror stories are also considered to be fantasy stories.Ha, I love the 'because I don't agree with it, it must be wrong' mentality you have. And the idea that an author, writing an article for one of the biggest fantasy publishers in the industry, that writes on grim dark much..much more than you, and is intimate with the industry is 'ill informed' fucking silly. How much more informed do you need them to be? Do you need to get an email from you telling them what is ok to write so it falls within your set parameters? What makes someone 'informed' about the topic? Publication? than CT has you by rights. Reading in the genre? Then I think I've already said that most are better read than you around here, so that's not valid. Can't seem to find anything that would make her 'ill informed' other than she doesn't agree with your outlook on the subject. That doesn't make her ill informed... hell, in this case it makes her right. Also, doesn't the blurring of genre lines mess with your weird obsession with classification for shopping? Seems like, to me, keeping the two separate works better for your type of obsession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Ha, I love the 'because I don't agree with it, it must be wrong' mentality you have. Also, doesn't the blurring of genre lines mess with you weird obsession with classification for shopping? Seems like, to me, keeping the two separate works better for your type of obsession. Well this is awkward.I agree.Well, in the context that I think the blurring of lines of genre is a perfectly valid truth of writing and horror stories, grimdark stories, and so on are things which can and do dip into each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 You guys know the author of that post actually writes books, right? and you should look up the history behind the world fantasy award before you mouth off yet again. Might learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 You guys know the author of that post actually writes books, right?and you should look up the history behind the world fantasy award before you mouth off yet again. Might learn something.I thought it was extremely well written even if I disagree with their conclusions.As for the World Fantasy Award, Lovecraft is one of the great genre blenders. Horror, science fiction, fantasy, Pulp, and more. Honestly, I think he, himself, would probably agree that he didn't fit into any single category and that's why he created his own of "weird" fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I think her definition needs some more refinement but it is a lot closer then anything else ive seen bantered around here. Not sure what's so ill informed about it. Maybe it's because an icky girl write it?and its late and i could be misremembering but it was my impression the WFA was a bust of HPL because the guy who started the award wanted it that way and didn't give two shits if it made sense or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 I think her definition needs some more refinement but it is a lot closer then anything else ive seen bantered around here. Not sure what's so ill informed about it. Maybe it's because an icky girl write it?I think she made a lot of salient points. What I wrote in response to her on the comments section was:11. C.T. Phipps Mon Nov 2, 2015 10:55pmFavorite ThisYou’re in luck as I happen to write both grimdark as well as horror fiction. I think you’re right there’s some definite parallels between grimdark and horror. I also think the two can have a Venn diagram where they occupy both. The Walking Dead, for example, is pretty damn grimdark while also being explicitly of the horror genre.For me, it’s simply a question of literary intent. Horror fiction can be both science-fiction and fantasy with H.P. Lovecraft having done quite a bit combining but the intent is to frighten and revolt the reader. Jason Voorhees, post-resurrection, is a zombie and a monster but the Friday movies are not fantasy. His intent is to make us afraid for the characters and their survival and frighten us (as well as thrill) with his unstoppable ability to kill.Grimdark, for me, is a descriptor which can only apply to science-fiction and fantasy storytelling (urban or otherwise) but the purpose is the same as the above two in escapism. To quote The Dark Knight‘s Scarecrow, “I said it’d take you places. I didn’t say it would be places you wanted to go.” Grimdark takes us to the seedy noir and nightmarish horrors of the fantasy genre. The purpose is to transport us to another world. Whereas horror is very much about bringing another world’s horrors to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 [mod] Thread is well past its 400 post limit. Also, I think we've exhausted the discussion of "what is grimdark" when the same arguments get posted ad nauseum. As such, it's probably time to give this topic a rest for awhile. Thank you. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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