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Why do you like this character: Jaime


shizett

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No I would never be open to liking Catelyn and I wouldn't want anyone to convince me either. So you posted just to lecture me IncBlackbird.(and I don't appreciate being lectured) But since you think they actually are open to it:

I didn't post just to lecture you, but I'm sorry it came accross that way. And also, ok, you're not open to people trying to convince you to like Catelyn, that's  fine, I asked because I couldn't know, that's why there's a question mark there. My point was though, that even if this goes for you, it could be different for them (which is totally fine obviously) and also what I meant is that even if you think your time is waisted because they wouldn't like Jaime (which is also fine) I personally think there's more too it than just getting people to like a character. But again, that's just my experience, I'm not trying to lecture you, I'm just giving you my personal opinion.

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You won't like him just like I will never like Catelyn. Nothing anyone said could convince me of the good in her and nothing I say will ever let you see the good in Jaime.

I feel the same as youabout Catelyn. I'll never be convinced that she didn't ruin everything she touched. But I've always loved Jaime and Jon better than all the characters. My initial reaction to Jaime when I started the series back in 2003 was "Ha! He's such an ass! I like this guy," but when I read as a more mature reader I better understood his complexities. 

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That is a bit extreme. He can go back and help/make Kevan help Cersei come out of this mess somehow. Don't you agree? Also, exiled kids are better than dead ones.

I agree that he could have gone back and tried to help Kevan help Cersei out of this mess, but I don't see any way that he could have been a bigger part of his kids lives. He will never get to be their father. Cersei had also started to reject him when he returned to King's Landing missing his hand. She didn't see him as a protector for her and their children anymore. She only wanted him back when she was at her most desperate. Add that to him being heartbroken when Tyrion told him about Cersei screwing around with other people while he was being held captive and trying desperately to get back to her, he may feel that she is just trying to use him to get her out of this situation and will abandon him once she is free.

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This last update sucked.   That said, I read the topic wishing shizett would apply this critical eye to Cat, who I find absolutely nothing redeemable in either.   Well said Jamie4Brienne.   She's worthless.   As to Jamie, there are so many layers upon layers of struggle within this character's story.    And I don't see any valid reason for Jamie to push Bran out of a window.   That was my 1st taste of Jamie Lannister, diabolical, despicable, disgusting.  GRRM has allowed me to travel with this villain often in his head.   I get to see what motivates and terrorizes this privileged, manipulated and tortured soul.    He is no different than anyone who has to grow as a consequence of living among the players.    Curiously, Jamie never actually wants to be a player, which is fascinating given the scene with Ned where Jamie merely waits upon the IT for the conqueror to claim it.    He has killed the king for 2 very valid reasons, saving the city and freeing Tywin of his loyalty, face to face, as it were.   That was huge in my estimation.   Jamie would not allow his father's loyalties to fail because of Jamie's position as a virtual hostage.    So very clever and loyal of Jamie.   This guy can act on the fly.  And then he takes all the scorn and gossip in stride.   He never once feels he needs to explain himself to anyone.    This is brave in my estimation.   

In that I adore Tyrion and see a great deal redeemable in him Jamie gets points for being Tyrion's only champion.   Jamie's a very good older brother to a demon monkey who is otherwise defenseless.   Jamie shows no fear when aiding and defending or even just enjoying Tyrion.   No one else seems to be able to do this in the entire story. 

Brienne is what Jamie was meant to be.   Jamie appears to be the only person in the story who can see beyond her utter strangeness to the deep inner beauty and goodness she is.   

Watch Jamie's singular opinions to see his potential greatness.   And I don't find him whiny at all.   He has a lot on his shoulders for a good deal more than just the Lannisters.   

Oh, I completely missed your post.

Tbh, I am learning things from this so I will do the same for Deanerys and Sansa. I don't really like Cat too, but she is not that likable, is she?

As for Bran, I am sure if King Robert learned about the incest, all of them would die. One person against five, all of whom his family and loved-ones, is something I understand. I find the act very cruel too. I wasn't defending him in anyways.

As for Aerys, he is a monster, but so what? I see your point about his loyalties to his father and raise you Master Aemon. I would say, maybe if Jaime would think a bit about the vows he made and did not see himself so above everything and everyone, he might have taken more care in making those vows.

As for not explaining himself to others, it does take courage, but it does put bad precedence. If everybody made so low of their vows, westeros would be even worst that it is now.

Tyrion is NOT a demon monkey. He is a person. He is an AMAZING person, he is kind, generous, loyal, smart. To be honest, anyone who isn't Cat or His immediate family sees how great of a guy he is. He makes tons of friends on the wall (Everyone other than Benjen. he even makes friends with Ghost) and in KL. Basically, anyone who is human enough to look past his being a dwarf, sees a great person there. I am going to great lengths to show you how popular he is outside of Lannister family, to show that he needed the most protection in his own family. Jaime did nothing, he also participated in Tysha thing.

As for Brienne, Renly, Cat, and Pod saw it too. Besically whoever who came in contact with Brienne. But he sees and appreciates it in its wholeness too.

As for him being whiny, Master Aemon goes through the same experience, Jon does too, and even Bran. They all give their own answers and then move on (and they do make a range of answers). They don't mock the whole system, or continue to live a very empty and shallow life and whine to those who are kind enough to listen to them.

As I have stated at the end of all my replies, Jaime is good, he is not awesome though. And for all the potential he has shown so far, others have bloomed multiple times.

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I agree that he could have gone back and tried to help Kevan help Cersei out of this mess, but I don't see any way that he could have been a bigger part of his kids lives. He will never get to be their father. Cersei had also started to reject him when he returned to King's Landing missing his hand. She didn't see him as a protector for her and their children anymore. She only wanted him back when she was at her most desperate. Add that to him being heartbroken when Tyrion told him about Cersei screwing around with other people while he was being held captive and trying desperately to get back to her, he may feel that she is just trying to use him to get her out of this situation and will abandon him once she is free.

You are right. He probably thinks Cersei is only using him.

But to be fair, Jaime and Cersei are family in more than one way. And Jaime used Cersei to explain away a lot of his decisions (and others do it for him to explain why he acted corrupted so many times) and actions. Duty seems to be completely lost on him.

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I agree that he could have gone back and tried to help Kevan help Cersei out of this mess, but I don't see any way that he could have been a bigger part of his kids lives. He will never get to be their father. Cersei had also started to reject him when he returned to King's Landing missing his hand. She didn't see him as a protector for her and their children anymore. She only wanted him back when she was at her most desperate. Add that to him being heartbroken when Tyrion told him about Cersei screwing around with other people while he was being held captive and trying desperately to get back to her, he may feel that she is just trying to use him to get her out of this situation and will abandon him once she is free.

Jaime puts a lot of pride into the fact that he has only been with Cersei. And he felt really judged by Ned Stark after King Aerys's story. Could it be he invests so much in this because Ned had been unfaithful to his wife? This was the only point he truly was superior to Ned (he mentions it multiple times in the story both to Ned and Catlyn) and maybe that is why he got so heartbroken by Cersei's betrayal.

What do you think?

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That is a bit extreme. He can go back and help/make Kevan help Cersei come out of this mess somehow. Don't you agree? Also, exiled kids are better than dead ones.

One main reason why Jaime abandoned Cersei at the end of FfC was because at that point he basically hated her. He now believes that she had lied, manipulated and used him his entire life, he had finally realized Cersei's true colours and now he wants nothing to do with her. Jaime didn't abandon the kids, he didn't think they were in the danger. 

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This is my first post, so please let me know if I am not abiding by forum etiquette and I would adjust my post. Also, since I will be talking about Jaime's story arc, there will be SPOILERS from all books.

I am sure this has been talked about many times (and in many threads), but since I couldn't find it through searching, I am writing it again.

I have read the books and watched the TV series, and I do not care for Jaime Lannister. I find him extremely irresponsible and whiny in general, and I cannot find a way to like him. I obviously understand that people have different tastes and find different things to like in others,

I’m replying while reading this so if I repeat things or it’s a bit all over the place, I’m sorry J also, warning: this is going to be really long.

Jaime is quite irresponsible, of all the things Cersei said about him, that one probably the one thing she got right. He’s impulsive and often acts without thinking.

 but I also see a lot of wishful thinking to see Jaime as a hero of some sort, and that just baffles me. Why? What has Jaime done so far that deserves so much forgiving or inspire such admiration?

I don’t think Jaime is any kind of classic hero, but I don’t think anyone in this series is, because black and white all-good heroes don’t exist and this series is realistic, not a cartoon, which is what’s so great about it if you ask me. That being said, I made a thread recently (that you might partially be referring to here) that’s all about how Jaime and Theon are the two characters where a deconstruction of the typical “hero saves the maiden from the monster’s castle” fairytale hero applies. And the whole point of that is that it is a deconstruction, neither Theon nor Jaime are anything like typical heroes yet they get that type of storyline, I think to show that people aren’t perfect but people who’ve done bad can still do good things and vise versa.

Personally, I don’t think Jaime needs to be forgiven because I don’t think he’s done anymore wrong than 90% of the other characters and they also don’t need to be forgiven because they live in a culture where either the bad things they do are part of society or it’s because they got into a situation where the choice was just difficult and I just can’t expect people to make perfect choices. Was Jaime Selfish in chosing his own life over Bran’s? certainly. But we all are, it’s normal that we chose our own survival over someone else’ being selfish is inherently human and not a bad thing in my opinion.

But I know this is a controversial opinion, and I honestly don’t expect many people to share it. So let’s say that I do think he needs to be forgiven. What has he done to be forgiven: for one he killed aerys, saving all of kingslanding in the process and going against the messed up idealogy of the society he lives in that dictates him that he needs to protect the king even when the king is planning on killing thousends of innocent people (and worse) that’s one of the things I find most admirable about him, he rises above the society he lives in at that moment, something I don’t expect of characters but admire when they do. Then there’s the fact that he went back to save Brienne when he only had one hand, he risked his own life, to save hers. That’s also pretty damn admirable.

 

- Jaime is obviously extremely privileged. He has the right sex, was born first, has the right family name, has a lot of natural talent (Ser Barristan says in TDWD about one of his knights in training "to have the most natural talent in sword fight since Jaime Lannister", I find that to be a high praise specially because it is a silent one).

in comparison to other people he is certainly privileged, but just because if you compare him to others he is, doesn’t make his own problems any less real. What you say here is true, but let’s not forget that as a child he wanted to be “Arthur Dayne” he was a young naïve boy, who romanticized life and knighthood (probably due to his privilege) in that sense he was the male Sansa. Sansa wanted to MARRY a knight in shining armor, Jaime wanted to BE a knight in shining armor. But when he becomes a member of the kingsguard at the age of 14? 15? (I don’t know exactly, someone who’s a bigger Jaime expert correct me if I’m wrong!?) that dream is instantly shattered because he discovers that honor doesn’t mean what he thought it meant. His romanticized version of the knights being the ones who protect the “innocent and the weak” is completely wrong. Honor is a lie, he’s been told and life is completely unfair. Because he is told that he can’t stop the king from brutally raping his wife in the name of honor. Jaime has to witness horrible things under aerys and I don’t think that can be underestimated, which is a thing I think often happens with parts of the story that we didn’t read about during the events, because we weren’t there to experience them so to speak, but just because we weren’t there doesn’t make them any worse for the characters who WERE there. Jaime tells several people (Brienne, Tommen…) to “go away inside”. It’s something he used to do when he had to witness those horrible things, it’s a sign of serious trauma. And after Jaime killed Aerys, finally saying “fuck honor, I’m doing the right thing” people insult him for it. This is why Jaime because so incredibly cynical. I think he had the idea of “ok, the world is completely fucked and there’s nothing I can do about it” So he forced himself to care about anyone but himself (and Cersei, Tyrion) because he figured that the world was inherently bad. A position that is of course extreme but understandable in my opinion considering that he started off with the extreme opposite opinion and that one was shattered in a very short time and a very harsh way.

He was born with the (self-professed) love of his life (Cersei).

 

He believes her to be, but she’s not. She also has been manipulating and even abusing him for years. From your perspective this might not be clear, but if you want me to clarify this, I’m writing an essay on these two (and I am a huge Cersei fan btw, she’s one of my absolute fav characters) and I could certainly get some quotes and clarify this position further.

 

- The only real honorable act of his life is supposed to be his killing of King Aerys for which he has been most criticized. Multiple times, when confronted by Ned Stark, he makes a point of telling him that he was not the only Kingsguard and witnessing whatever atrocities done under Aerys was done by all, not just him. Now, I understand that Jaime was only 16 (The same age as Jon, Rob, and older than Dany) and a very young knight, and he could not do much about King Aerys, but he can feel some remorse NOW. We do experience being in his head and there is NO remorse or any sense of shame or responsibility.  

Compare it to Theon who feels so ashamed of what he has done that cannot ask for help even from gods.

I don’t really understand what you’re saying here? 1) Are you saying that Jaime should feel guilty for Aerys actions because he didn’t stop hem sooner? Or 2) are you saying that he should feel guilty for killing Aerys?

In the case of 1) Jaime couldn’t have possibly stopped Aerys he would have been stopped before he could get to him and even if he could have, that would be the end of his life. I don’t think anyone should be expected to give up their own life for such a thing. And I don’t think anyone is responsible for someone else’s actions regardless of if they could have done something about it, so nothing here for Jaime to feel guilty about.

In the case of 2) Killing Aerys was the right thing to do, so again nothing for jaime here to feel sorry about.

Theon is one of the most remorsefull characters in the series and i'm actually glad you bring tis up because hey, big Theon fan here. But anyone I digress: Jaime also expresses remores not for loving Cersei but “for the things he did in order to hide it”

 

- He mocks Knighthood and has little respect for the vow he made as a kingsguard or as a knight. I usually read that people say "oathbreaking" is a terrible crime before the eyes of God and he did betray the King, while being his body guard. But it is more than that. We can actually see the other surviving kingsguard's (Ser Barristan) reaction to the whole story of Robert's rebellion, and he does feel the responsibility, he does think about missing signs of King Aerys's madness and feels remorse for it. By making a vow about lifelong service to the King, they also shoulder some of the King's responsibility in actions. Jaime doesn't, and he feels so righteous about it too.

 

 

Jaime mocks knighthood because knighthood is a lie, the image of the honorable knight in shining armor that is spread to children is wrong, Jaime experiences this first hand so he becomes cynical about it. I actually consider this a good thing. Someone being a knight doesn’t make them a good person, in most cases it’s the opposite. Same with the vows, they’re all ways of society to keep the lowborn people low and rise up and protect the high class cloaked under the pretense of “honor” and Jaime feels righteous about it because he’s one of the few people who cares about that. In short, he feels righteous because in this case he IS righteous.

 

- He does whine A LOT about the Jaime Delimma (making many vows that do contradict each other) but never actually shows any sign of understanding that the difficulty is part of knighthood. No body made Jaime be a knight, he decided it on his own. No body made Jaime become a Kingsguard (King Aerys did manipulate him of sorts, but if he didn't want to, his father was more than capable of defending him). Why does he feel so entitled to be put off the hook?

 

I don’t think he’s whining about the dilemma, I think he’s cynical and “whining” if you will, about how unfair the world is in that regard. And I don’t think it’s a part of knighthood, I think it’s a part of many things, every male highborn person in this world will have to swear vows, because the world is based on vows pretty much. And you say, it was his choice to become a knight. And sure it was his choice but when he made that choice he didn’t know any of this about knighthood because he was stuck I his idealistic ideal of the world, which you can hardly blame him for I think.

 

- Again going back to King Aerys's killing, he never considers any other options he had about the king. He just killed him, it was easy, it was lazy, it had the least amount of risk, it did serve his own personal gain and his family's, and was done in the most convenient time. He never protested to his father about "sacking" of the city he so gallantly saved or killing of Rheagar's kids. He might have been gallant for a second, but it finished there and then. He is angry at Ned Stark for having judged him so harshly, but he felt so superior that never even explained to him of the reasons. Why does he feel so superior? He knew then (and probably now) that the reasons weren't enough, his act was without honor, and people would have still judged him. He could have grown out of it after some time, but he never did make the effort.

Ned Stark, one of the people who seems to be universally accepted as an honorable guy, does go above and beyond to stay honorable, he does pay the price in many ways. For Jon, he took the blame, suffered all the judgement of others (whose insults continue til his death) and pettiness of his wife and became the better man for it. Jon IS a great guy, to his parents (he is great to Catelyn too), his siblings, his friends, and whoever he serves. Regardless of who his parents are, Ned did add value to the world by taking Jon in. How did Jaime do so? Jaime does hide behind his age a lot, but Jon dies being 16 at the end of DWD because he was tactless and Rob died by Freys as a result of breaking some treaty. They are all 15-16. It seems to be an age that people are held responsible for their actions (even here and now in our forum).

 

I don’t think he needed to consider any other options, killing him would get rid of him forever, Jaime saw all the horrible things he could do so to him it was “good riddance” I think, which in my opinion is a perfectly valid thought.

It wasn’t on Jaime to explain to Ned what had happened, it was on Ned not to judge Jaime when he didn’t know what had happened. Ned made assumptions and prejudiced him. If you make a bad judgement without knowing all the facts than that’s on you. Not to mention that Ned knew what Aerys was capable off, and he was fighting Aerys himself, he rebelled against him (for good reason) then what right had he to judge Jaime for doing the same? Jaime had every right to be angry at Ned in my opinion.

And you bring it up yourself here, Ned makes exceptions to his own honor to do the right thing (which is good! It’s how it should be) but when others do the same thing, he judges them for it. Ned is honorable (and honorable in this world is a bad thing, although Ned doesn’t realize this) but he’s also judgemental.

 

- He attacks Ned Stark in the middle of the city in KL after Catelyn captures Tyrion. Again, with the same unnecessary aggression. He kills all the people with Ned, why? They could keep a captive or discuss terms with Ned, why act so aggressively for no apparent reason other than arrogance and feeling superior?

Compare this to Ned's action of warning Cersei to flee with her kids before he tells Robert. Ned might be all shades of stupid, but he definitely has learned his lesson from the previous war about kids. He and his family do pay the price for him being honorable, he probably is aware of it and does it anyways.

 

 

Jaime acts aggressively because he’s impulsive and he loves Tyrion so he’s angry that Cat took him, and probably scared for his wellbeing. His impulsive and aggressive behavior is certainly not a good thing and he killed a lot of innocent people there but he did it because of the love for his brother (who btw, no one else loves based on the way he looks)

Ned and Jaime are vastly different people and Ned is a much more competent person.

 

- He gets captured, and kills some kin and non-kin trying to escape. Catelyn gets possessed and frees him based on a promise (Har!). Shit happens, he loses his hand, keeps whining. Tells Brienne his story (gets all sort of compassion from her), saves her from the bear and finally makes it to Kingslanding. Almost rapes her sister (notice ALMOST) in front of the body of their son. Has a falling with his father, helps his brother escape. Now, his story with Tyrion is truely sad. The whole point about Tysha is so sad because Jaime betrayed Tyrion as much as Tyrion betrayed Tysha. Of course as a result, Tysha got raped multiple times, Tyrion raped the love of his life, did become a drunk and has basically lived in agony ever since, and Jaime... ofcourse he is golden and never gives a fuck. Again, he takes no responsibility, it was their father's fault. Tyrion lies to Jaime that he did indeed kill Joff and then goes on to kill their father. Jaime gets mad at Tyrion.

Now Tyrion, is one of the kindest characters in the book up to this point. He has many bad habits, but he does not lack humanity and he worships his older brother. The amount of trust Tyrion puts into Jaime is heartbreaking. Jaime of course never does anything meaningful to shield him from their sister or their father, but again, what could he do? We see Rob shielding his half brother(Jon) from his mother (and he is only 15, younger than when Jaime was breaking all sorts of oaths and killing all sorts of kings), but what could Jaime (a full grown man with all sorts of power) do?

 

I don’t think Jaime killed anyone in trying to escape (did he even try to escape in the books? I don’t think so. This a show thing. I think it’s a bit insensitive to call his sadness after losing his hand “whining” tbh. I mean… his hand was cut off, and this was his swordhand, it’s basically half his identity being stripped away from him, and that’s not even talking about the trauma of simply having a hand cut off and it starting to infect even. I also don’t think that Jaime betrayed Tyrion, I don’t think I’ve even ever heard anyone say that. His father forced Jaime to lie to Tyrion. Equally I don’t think Tyrion betrayed Tysha, he was acting on the wrong information and again forced by his father. This whole situation is on Tywin if you ask me.

Yeah, Jaime did nothing… except save Tyrion’s life. He also often defends Tyrion Certainly towards Cersei, probably also towards Tywin. But it’s not like he can control their actions, neither is this his responsibility.

 

- Goes to Riverlands, does some negotiation which ties all the loos ends in war, her sister (the love of his life, the girl who he pushed a 7yo kid out the window for) asks for his help, but he is heartbroken and now... he is even superior to his sister. He needs an honorable quest, and his sister is not honorable enough for him. Please bear in mind that if Cersei fails to prove her innocence its not only her who will be in danger, it is also both their kids and the peace of the realm too. By ignoring Cersei, he is also neglecting/ignoring his son too.

Agian, compare this to Ned Stark. Ned, one of the most aggression-averse characters in the book, loses almost all his family members, marries a woman he does not love, and fights a war for Lyana. Either Lyana was abducted or she did go with Rheagar of her own will, but Ned never judges her sister. He does his duty, makes it to her sister, fights some of his personal heroes (he never fails to mention how awesome Ser Arthur Dayne was) and finishes the story. He still shoulders all the cruelty and broken promises that happened as a result of war.

 

I’ll try to keep this short but again, Cersei has been abusing Jaime for years. We see first hands how she manipulates him in all manner of ways not to mention that she only comes to him when she needs something and when he returns after being held captive for a year and losing his hand (all of this a very traumatizing situation, I hope you agree with that?) Cersei blames him for the death of Joffrey because he didn’t come back sooner. Cersei only thinks of herself, she only feels sorry for herself and has no regard for anyone else, including Jaime, including her children… She lacks a vital part of the human mind: empathy. Cersei and Jaime’s dynamic has basically been: Cersei gives Jaime sex, Jaime does everything Cersei asks without question. But when Jaime returns he doesn’t take her bullshit anymore, he doesn’t agree with her decisions of for example killing the guards who were guarding Tyrion, he doesn’t want to do her bidding because he has moral objections to it and the moment he stops doing whatever she asks, the moment she realizes that she can’t control Jaime anymore she because extremely malicious. Jaime loved Cersie but Cersei never loved Jaime because she’s incapable of it, he has no obligation to help her whatsoever.

As far as we know Lyanna was not a narcissist without empathy. apples and oranges.

 

In the end, I want to make it clear again that I am not judging this character, I believe that Jaime is doing his best, he does believe he is redeeming himself, but is he? He has been extremely weak (but never powerless) throughout his life. Why do so many people root for him to do something heroic? He already did a heroic act but it didn't make him stronger, help him grow personally, or become the seed to grow a better man from. So what is so interesting about Jaime? Is it the excitement of change? Is it because he is beautiful and has the right physical characteristics for a hero? Is it because we want a hero who is not a commoner but is soiled somehow?

I want to stress that I am not judging those who like Jaime or are rooting for him, I am just hoping by reading about your points of view, I will be able to relate to this character more.

 

 

Actually doing something heroic (saving Brienne) did help him grow. He is becoming the person he always wanted to be, the knight who does the right thing. He’s leaving Cersei, learning to be his own person free from her influence.

 

So yeah, this is my contribution, sorry for the length again. But I wanted to be thorough. I'm not really expecting you to completely turn arround and love Jaime but I do hope you'll take what I said here into consideration :)

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Jaime puts a lot of pride into the fact that he has only been with Cersei. And he felt really judged by Ned Stark after King Aerys's story. Could it be he invests so much in this because Ned had been unfaithful to his wife? This was the only point he truly was superior to Ned (he mentions it multiple times in the story both to Ned and Catlyn) and maybe that is why he got so heartbroken by Cersei's betrayal.

What do you think?

Jaime doesn't really put any pride in the fact that he has only been with Cersei. He compared himself and Ned in terms of faithfulness to Cat because he wanted to hurt her. And he only mentioned it once to Cat, he never told anything like that to Ned.

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Thanks for the reply, shizett.   Good luck with Dany and Sansa.   Can't wait to see your take on both.   Point for point then, since i can't quote...

As for Bran, I am sure if King Robert learned about the incest, all of them would die. One person against five, all of whom his family and loved-ones, is something I understand. I find the act very cruel too. I wasn't defending him in anyways.  Surely there was another way short of the attempted murder of a small child?   I couldn't tell you what alternative, but there is always another way.   I didn't see as much "5" in Jaime's thoughts as you do.   All I saw was blind protection of 1, Cersei.   Not Jamie, not the children.   Only Cersei.   

As for Aerys, he is a monster, but so what? I see your point about his loyalties to his father and raise you Master Aemon. I would say, maybe if Jaime would think a bit about the vows he made and did not see himself so above everything and everyone, he might have taken more care in making those vows.  I would argue that Jamie chose the parts of his vows that suited his conscience in this act.   I don't recall seeing a full on copy of the Kings Guard's vows, but I do recall protecting the weak as being part of them. I see absolute selflessness in this single suicidal act.   

As for not explaining himself to others, it does take courage, but it does put bad precedence. If everybody made so low of their vows, westeros would be even worst that it is now.  I have to take this with Cersei's delusions of grandeur and Tywin's formidible reputation in mind...This Lannister committed the highest form of treason to save the seat of the realm.   He did not explain his actions to appease anyone or negate his action or even to bring understanding or greatness to his family's reputation.   He acted bravely and his silence indicates his willingness to suffer far greater consequences than he actually encountered.  

   Tyrion is NOT a demon monkey. He is a person. He is an AMAZING person, he is kind, generous, loyal, smart. To be honest, anyone who isn't Cat or His immediate family sees how great of a guy he is. He makes tons of friends on the wall (Everyone other than Benjen. he even makes friends with Ghost) and in KL. Basically, anyone who is human enough to look past his being a dwarf, sees a great person there. I am going to great lengths to show you how popular he is outside of Lannister family, to show that he needed the most protection in his own family. Jaime did nothing, he also participated in Tysha thing.   No, Tyrion's not a demon monkey, but that is how he is perceived by the many small folk.   Who was it rebuffed Tywin's offer of marriage to Tyrion?   There are some who take the opportunity to get to know Tyrion, but not so many as to negate his "reputation".   And Tyrion is much smarter than the average person in power.  He made plenty of powerful enemies.  I will argue Sansa, who was the recipient of one of Tyrion's more overt kindnesses.   Even she never made it to fan of Tyrion.   She remembers him kindly after the fact but utterly loathed him when they were together.   Her problem was getting beyond Tyrion's being a Lannister more than anything else.   Jamie was Tyrion's only defender who wasn't paid.  This isn't popularity, this is defense.  NOrth men were killed for Tyrion's capture.  The Hand of the King was maimed by Jamie.  When Oberyn chose to be Tyrion's champion he was looking for an excuse to get Gregor--I also picked up on some fondness for Tyrion, but that was secondary.    Jamie was the one who got Tyrion THE HELL OUT of KL.   And lost his father in doing so.  Tysha is often brought up to show what a prick Jamie is.   Not so.   I defy you to show me a place in your past where a gift you thought was brilliant turned out badly or unexpectedly.  Jamie didn't think ahead is what Tysha was.  Jamie wanted to get his brother laid.   He had no idea Tyrion would fall in love and marry the girl.   Jamie couldn't have seen Tywin's punishment either.   There is no fault in a gesture of kindness that goes out of the control of the giver.   

As for Brienne, Renly, Cat, and Pod saw it too. Besically whoever who came in contact with Brienne. But he sees and appreciates it in its wholeness too.  Renly just sees Brienne's loyalty.   Cat only sees a fast friend in need.   Pod actually gets to spend some time with the lady and idolizes knights anyway.   Jamie sees her for what she is all but immediately.  

As for him being whiny, Master Aemon goes through the same experience, Jon does too, and even Bran. They all give their own answers and then move on (and they do make a range of answers). They don't mock the whole system, or continue to live a very empty and shallow life and whine to those who are kind enough to listen to them.  But Jamie has a range of answers, as a brother to the queen, uncle to the royal children, a kingsguard, a Lannister, a knight, a spurned lover, a King Slayer, a maimed swordsman.   That's part of the beauty of Jamie, he's deep and multi faceted.  I'm never sure if it's the Lannister mocking the knight or the maimed swordsman mocking the son of Tywin in half of Jamie's internal dialogues...but this is the joy in reading them.   I love Brienne in these places and hope for a good deal more in Winds.  I don't know that this is so much mocking as it is Jamie developing a real self outside all the labels.   

Thanks for putting up with the copy & paste.   It sucks not being able to just quote.   

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The way Jaime's introduced to us, he's basically the main antagonist of the first novel. A man who kills kings and pushes little boys out of towers to prove how evil he is with an inexplicable soft spot concerning his brother. Yet the more you learn about him in the second and third novels the more compelling and full his character becomes. You can start to understand why he turned out the way he is and went from an idealistic young knight to a jaded egotist.

There's something compelling about a man who at least tries to better himself, even if he falls short. Most just don't care, point the finger at someone else's flaws to draw attention from their own, or some excuse. The most knightly act in the entire set of novels is Jaime saving Brienne, in my opinion. Her naivete in some ways rekindled Jaime's own better instincts that were generally reserved only for his brother and family, up to a point.

Some people simply aren't going to like him, which is fine, but to me he's one of the most entertaining and complete characters in the novels.

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I feel like you're focusing on his character traits and not the experience of reading his chapters. People like him because they think he is an interesting character to read because of his struggles and blunt snarky humour.

As a character Jaime has obviously done many bad things, and is rude to most people he talks to. I wouldn't like Jaime if he was an actual person. His internal dialogue is interesting to read though. 

I haven't heard much about him being a hero, but he's definitely on a redemption arch. That doesn't have to end with heroism, but he is taking actions to be a better person.

I'm also not sure what your issues are with him being a hero. Anyone can do heroic acts, they don't need to be morally just. I also think you praise Tyrion a bit too much considering how little he can care for other people's feelings as well.

Also I never felt like Jaime was whining, but just making snarky remarks about his life. Jaime and Cersai had an abusive relationship and him burning her letter signified his ending of the relationship. As for the Tyrion rape thing, you can put all the blame on Jaime. He was following his father's orders afterall. If anything killing the king was the beginning of his redemption as he decided he wasn't going to watch while athoritarian figures did awful things to people.

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Very complicated man, no love from his father, falls in love with sister who is getting more mad every second, has 3 kids and must pretend that they are not his, has to choose between king and oath in one hand and lives of his father and 500k innocent people in KL in other and every man from Dorne to Wall resents him for that. He pushed Bran and I think that it is his worst crime, he broke guest right! Until he lost hand he did many bad things, but I only think that he shouldnt push Bran, and for Cersei, well the heart wants what the heart wants. After losing hand heveryone think that he is on reedeming path, but I dont think that he is that bad person that he needs a reedeming path. Maybe when pushing Bran he tought that he,his love, their children and many more soldiers would die if Robert foud out what he saw.

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I don't like him as a "person" (I mean, if he were a real person, if that makes sense), but I fully believe he's the most complex/layered character of the series and I'm planning to write a paper on his character development and submit to some lit journal when I have time, which is never. 

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I don't like him as a "person" (I mean, if he were a real person, if that makes sense), but I fully believe he's the most complex/layered character of the series and I'm planning to write a paper on his character development and submit to some lit journal when I have time, which is never. 

ita he might be the best written character in the series. Def worth a paper, if you had the time.

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Jaime is my second favorite character but I recognize completely that he has been a total prick for the majority of his life, and that part should be despised, utterly.

the way I see it, like many he started off naive and with dreams of doing great deeds, finding romance and heroism.  He joined the KG in pursuit of these dreams and immediately was faced with the facts of the situation.  Because he was KG to Aerys (and later Robert) there would be no glory or heroism.  Instead he must guard a sadistic rapist / torturer, even against his own family.  His one hope (like many) seemed to be in Rhaegar but then he died too.  So, given the opportunity he kills Aerys, and relishes in it, in fact.  Finally he has the opportunity to slay the monster - that's what knights are supposed to do.  Then he is judged for it (he acts impulsively so he doesn't bother to consider that the situation looks to an outsider like he did it on his father's orders when really he did it for KL and for himself).  

Later, his sister marries Robert and Jaime is forced to make his life even more of a lie.  Now he guards the king while fucking his sister and secretly fathering her children...  This is clearly dishonorable and against everything he once stood for but by this point he's utterly nihilistic.  He thinks, well honor is crap anyway, right and wrong don't exist, so I'll just do what I want.  So he does things like try to murder bran on impulse, and kill all of Neds men for little reason other than because it was easy to do.  He even upgrades Cerseis wish for Aryas maiming to killing her outright, because why not?  Nothing matters anyway.

yet, something in Jaime lingers... the young Jaime that knew what Aerys did was wrong.  That knows what older Jaime is doing is just as wrong. Perhaps even more wrong, since Jaime knows better...  Aerys may have been mad, but Jaime wasn't.  He was just nihilistic and impulsive. 

But he keeps this part of himself buried, because he thinks living honorably isn't possible in this world. Sure, Ned stark is an example, but Jaime hates Ned (and likewise Ned always hated Jaime) and besides, look where honor got Ned - he lost his head!  He meets Catelyn, though, and I think he begins there to have a grudging respect for her way of thinking.  The part of him that can feel compassion feels for her loss, and while he firmly has his mask of cynicism in place, he ultimately tries to do right by his vow to her.  

Ultimately what alters his views is an encounter with someone very like his young self. Someone who when faced with many examples that supposedly honorable people could be total shitheads still refused to let that taint their knightly ideals.  Someone that passed the tests Jaime failed.  Someone who saw him for what he had become - not as a great swordsman or Tywin Lannisters son, but simply as a fallen knight.  In her pure unalloyed sincerety and vulnerability Jaime saw himself both as as a boy and as he was now and he didn't like what he saw.  He was moved, in a way he hadn't been by Ned Stark, to prove the boy Jaime still existed.  When he was injured and Brienne cared for him, he allowed his mask to slip and the boy came out - a boy that still yearned for honor and glory.  And she recognized that boy, Jaime, the Kingslayer, yes, but Jaime too.  And she loved that boy, in a way Cersei never did.  She loved him for his ideals, complicated as they had become.  And Jaime is then moved to save her, and help her as he is able. 

Jaime now, realizes that boy inside him is worth much more than who he has become.  He pushed away the good parts of himself for all these years, and for what?  He had no great deeds, no heroic acts in the white book.  He barely even has a family.  His beloved brother now hates him, because of his lie about Tysha.  His children don't know him.  Cersei he now sees doesn't care about his dreams (nor did he care about hers for that matter - he often shut her up with sex when she annoyed him).  He loved an ideal of her, one that never existed.  Ultimately he has realized, his life after killing Aerys has been entirely unfulfilling.  

So, he decides maybe it's not too late.  Maybe he can be Goldenhand the Just.  Maybe he can follow Briennes example, and try to act with mercy, compassion, and honor.  He also has the life experience Brienne lacks - in that he knows sometimes a lie is more honorable than the truth if it protects the innocent.  

All that is to say, I think Jaime has gone through a really intriguing change in his thinking and self image and I think could one day be a hero.  It takes great courage to try to change ones self so completely.  To break an unhealthy cycle, and to try for more than a quick thrill amid a grey nothingness.  It's similar to breaking out of a cycle of crime, or drug abuse. To try to be a good person, is a difficult choice and I think Jaime has made that choice.  

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