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Is Benedict Justman an Andal, or First Men??


AlaskanSandman

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The Justman's come from Benedict Rivers, born of a Union between Houses Blackwood and Bracken. He is in TWOIAF to have been the first of the Andal Kings to rule the Riverlands. Yet, he appears to come from 2 first men houses. So what's going on here?? Is Benedict Rivers an Andal or of the First Men? Wouldn't that imply that either the Bracken's or the Blackwood's are Andals? Which kinda goes against what we know of when the Andals came. 

Has any one else noticed this and wondered about it?

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He would be the first King to worship the 7 in the Riverlands, thus the first Andal King.

That hardly seems logical. Andals are a race of people, not just a religion. The religion is referred to as the Faith of the Seven, not Andals. 

Even if Benedict married an Andal woman, it wouldn't make Benedict an Andal, Just his kids, and only partially. It clearly calls Benedict the first Andal King. 

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That hardly seems logical. Andals are a race of people, not just a religion. The religion is referred to as the Faith of the Seven, not Andals. 

It is both, a religion and a people. The vast majority of the major Houses in the South originate pre Andal yet they are all classed as Andals, not first men.

That is just how they distinguish themselves.

Benedict was most likely the first Riverland King who followed the Andal religion and/or ruled over the Riverlands when the Andal religion had overtaken the Old God religion. 

 

Even if Benedict married an Andal woman, it wouldn't make Benedict an Andal, Just his kids, and only partially. It clearly calls Benedict the first Andal King. 

When they say Andal in Westeros they are referring to religion and culture.  Andalos is a place in Essos. Andals are a culture in Westeros.

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It is both, a religion and a people. The vast majority of the major Houses in the South originate pre Andal yet they are all classed as Andals, not first men.

That is just how they distinguish themselves.

Benedict was most likely the first Riverland King who followed the Andal religion and/or ruled over the Riverlands when the Andal religion had overtaken the Old God religion. 

 

When they say Andal in Westeros they are referring to religion and culture.  Andalos is a place in Essos. Andals are a culture in Westeros.

I really disagree with all of this. Andals are a people. The Faith of the Seven is a religion and can be followed by anyone of any race, FIrst Men, Andals, Valyrian or other. At no point once so ever do they ever call the Targaryen's Andals. 

The reason the southern houses identify with the Andals NOW, is because they are so mixed with the Andals that they pretty much are Andal. That fact has nothing to do with their religious preferences, just blood. Just as there are Andals who worship the Drowned God, or the Old Gods (Manderly). Manderly having Andal blood and keeping with the Faith but still seems to honor and or worship and sea god/ Merman.

Sorry, but i just completely disagree with you on your classifications.

And so what, Andals come from Andalos as Valyrians come from Valyria, but that Valyrians dont worship Valyrian. They worshiped Boash, and more with specific names. As the Andal's worshiped a specific religion named The Faith of the Seven. If the Umbers suddenly decided to start worshiping the Faith of the Seven, they still wouldn't be Andals. Just First men who worship the Seven and have converted. 

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I really disagree with all of this. Andals are a people. The Faith of the Seven is a religion and can be followed by anyone of any race, FIrst Men, Andals, Valyrian or other. At no point once so ever do they ever call the Targaryen's Andals. 

The reason the southern houses identify with the Andals NOW, is because they are so mixed with the Andals that they pretty much are Andal. That fact has nothing to do with their religious preferences, just blood. Just as there are Andals who worship the Drowned God, or the Old Gods (Manderly). Manderly having Andal blood and keeping with the Faith but still seems to honor and or worship and sea god/ Merman.

Sorry, but i just completely disagree with you on your classifications.

And so what, Andals come from Andalos as Valyrians come from Valyria, but that Valyrians dont worship Valyrian. They worshiped Boash, and more with specific names. As the Andal's worshiped a specific religion named The Faith of the Seven. If the Umbers suddenly decided to start worshiping the Faith of the Seven, they still wouldn't be Andals. Just First men who worship the Seven and have converted. 

The thing is, the vast majority of all the Houses in Westeros are of First Men origin, the people of Westeros are all mostly First Men. Yet they call themselves Andals. The reason why is because of the Faith of the Seven. It's because of the religion the majority of First Men started to identify as Andals.

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The thing is, the vast majority of all the Houses in Westeros are of First Men origin, the people of Westeros are all mostly First Men. Yet they call themselves Andals. The reason why is because of the Faith of the Seven. It's because of the religion the majority of First Men started to call themselves as Andals.

How so when the text clearlyyyyyy states the manyyyyyy unions and intermingling of the Andals with the First Men of the South. Even Martin him self has clearly stated that the southern houses are too mixed to tell which is of more Andal Influence or First Men influence. All worship the Faith of the Seven tho irregardless of the varying degree's of mixing within their houses. But the house's are all mixed with Andal blood as stated by Martin.

 

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This is rather easy:

Because neither the Brackens nor the Blackwoods were still considered to be First Men by the time Benedict Rivers came to power. Most likely because Benedict's grandmothers, great-grandmothers, and other maternal ancestors all had been Andals by this point, and both families and Benedict saw themselves as Andals.

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This is rather easy:

Because neither the Brackens nor the Blackwoods were still considered to be First Men by the time Benedict Rivers came to power. Most likely because Benedict's grandmothers, great-grandmothers, and other maternal ancestors all had been Andals by this point, and both families and Benedict saw themselves as Andals.

Your right sir, i just reread that chapter and right before it talks about Benedict, it mentions the Andals killing off those who wouldn't kneel and intermarry. I missed it. So now ive realized they intermarried with the Andals before Benedict had been born. 

Sorry bout that. Going over all the Andal info to settle some looming points for another thread a river of time. :) Thank you 

 

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 If we were to look at how people in the south came to consider themselves as Andals then we pretty much need to consider that the arriving Andals never overtook the native population in numbers. In real history we can look to the differing migrations of people at the fall of the Rome, the Saxon/Angels/Jutes setting in Britain, and perhaps even the Turkizization of Anatolia. In the last example, the number of Turkish settlers in Anatolia (modern day Turkey) probably never came close to the Greek population (and other ethnicity) already in place. The cultural shift just comes from the Greeks and such converting to Islam, making many modern day Turks descendants of Greek and other converts from smaller ethnicities.

Now how do i close this thread? O.o

 

You don't. People can remain here to continue a discussion on the subject if they wish.

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Nobody cares about the smallfolk in all that, but the nobility everywhere in the South would shift from a First Man identity to an Andal identity especially after they had had Andal mothers and grandmothers, were following the Andal Faith, adopted Andal custom (chivalry, strict monogamy, etc.). This happened everywhere, even in the kingdoms were the ancient First Men houses continued to rule (i.e. in Oldtown and Highgarden, Storm's End and Casterly Rock).

And soon the smallfolk began to consider themselves Andals, too, considering that the songs and stories they were heavily influenced by Andal culture, too. There certainly remained First Men nuggets among them, of course, because the people never broke with their past completely. After the Andals had taken over the Vale and the Riverlands (and sort of the West as well) any religious persecution of the First Men and the followers of the old gods stopped.

Worshiping the old gods fell out of practice but the ancient noble houses never burned down their godswoods and newly-raised castles always included a new godswoods even the Eyrie (at least it tried), Harrenhal (most likely incorporating an already existing godswood from a more ancient castle that was torn down), and the Red Keep.

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Nobody cares about the smallfolk in all that, but the nobility everywhere in the South would shift from a First Man identity to an Andal identity especially after they had had Andal mothers and grandmothers, were following the Andal Faith, adopted Andal custom (chivalry, strict monogamy, etc.). This happened everywhere, even in the kingdoms were the ancient First Men houses continued to rule (i.e. in Oldtown and Highgarden, Storm's End and Casterly Rock).

And soon the smallfolk began to consider themselves Andals, too, considering that the songs and stories they were heavily influenced by Andal culture, too. There certainly remained First Men nuggets among them, of course, because the people never broke with their past completely. After the Andals had taken over the Vale and the Riverlands (and sort of the West as well) any religious persecution of the First Men and the followers of the old gods stopped.

Worshiping the old gods fell out of practice but the ancient noble houses never burned down their godswoods and newly-raised castles always included a new godswoods even the Eyrie (at least it tried), Harrenhal (most likely incorporating an already existing godswood from a more ancient castle that was torn down), and the Red Keep.

I agree with you on this but just want to point out that there are still some houses in the south that identify themselves as First Men the houses Blackwood and Royce are the two main examples of this.

This may actually be the reason why these houses intermarried with houses from the North more then any other house.

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The Blackwoods keep the old gods, but that doesn't mean they identify as First Men. Even the Starks don't consider themselves to be First Men because, you know, even they must have intermarried with Andal-blooded people (the Manderlys and Royces) on more than one occasions. It is said that the blood of the First Men still runs strong in the Starks. That is a subtle difference.

The Royces may keep the old gods as well but that's not even clear as of yet. They certainly are upholding ancient traditions and are keenly aware of their own history, that much is clear.

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The Blackwoods keep the old gods, but that doesn't mean they identify as First Men. Even the Starks don't consider themselves to be First Men because, you know, even they must have intermarried with Andal-blooded people (the Manderlys and Royces) on more than one occasions. It is said that the blood of the First Men still runs strong in the Starks. That is a subtle difference.

The Royces may keep the old gods as well but that's not even clear as of yet. They certainly are upholding ancient traditions and are keenly aware of their own history, that much is clear.

I don't agree Ned says to Bran that "The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks" so he clearly identifies the house as of First Men blood and i don't see how you can first call yourselve of First Men blood and then turn around and say your Andal. The logical conclusion is that at the very least Ned considered himself a First Men.

Not that he doesn't have andal blood in him he just doesn't indetify himself as Andal.

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I don't agree Ned says to Bran that "The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks" so he clearly identifies the house as of First Men blood and i don't see how you can first call yourselve of First Men blood and then turn around and say your Andal. The logical conclusion is that at the very least Ned considered himself a First Men.

Not that he doesn't have andal blood in him he just doesn't indetify himself as Andal.

My point there is was the Northmen and the Starks are civilized First Men that essentially live the same lifestyle as the Southron nobles aside from certain little things - like worshiping the old gods, having no knights, having more savage tourneys. The whole Stark thing of doing your killings yourself seems to be something that is not necessary a trait of all Northmen (Roose Bolton certainly doesn't execute or torture everyone with his own hands).

The true First Men lifestyle is the lifestyle of the clansmen in the Mountains of the Moon and the Free Folk beyond the Wall. Those are the real First Men who never adopted anything Andal, and who still keep customs that are remarkably different from the customs in the North.

I think you could make a case that the whole 'feudal castle culture' of the Seven Kingdoms and the Targaryen era is mostly Andal culture. First Men culture as continued by the Free Folk, the mountain clans in the North, the clansmen in the Mountains of the Moon, and possibly even in the Neck seems to be more egalitarian and less hierarchic/feudal. Your betters are more chieftains and first among equals rather than kings or lords who rule by divine right. One assumes that the early First Men petty kingdoms all looked more or less like that with those 'petty kings' not exactly being 'modern kings' in any real sense of the word. In that sense, I think, one can also make a case that the Starks reshaped their domains in the North into a kingdom after the Andal model down in the South to ensure its survival. One of the last remains of 'ancient First Man culture' would be the Starks obsession about doing the killing yourself. That's the type of personal responsibility/strength that the wildlings also want to see in their leaders and kings. If you don't have the stomach for butchery you are not strong enough to rule or lead, and if you are not strong enough to rule or lead, you are neither a leader nor a king, regardless who your father was.

In regards to the Starks it would be more correct to assume that they only retain some First Men blood considering that the intermarried with the Manderlys, Blackwoods, and Royces all of which would have more than a drop of Andal blood. Not to mention that many of the Northern houses the Starks took their other brides from might have intermarried with other houses of Andal descent.

And Catelyn's children all inherited the Andal ancestry of their mother. Yes, the Tullys are originally also First Men but they are one of the most andalized houses in the Riverlands.

Thinking about all that one actually wonders if it makes sense to assume that the very ancient First Men actually were related to each other despite the fact that they claimed certain names. Gerrick Kingsblood claims a certain ancestry as well, but there is no proof. Who is to say that the very ancient kings ruling from Barrowton, Winterfell, Highgarden, Casterly Rock, the Hightower, etc. actually were the sons/descendant of some guy whose name they claimed or whether they just killed the previous king and claimed the name along with the lands/castle they had taken or adopted it later on as a means of continuity?

Blood and dynasties most certainly were completely irrelevant in ancient First Men culture.

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Lord Vary's most of the time you have at least some valid points but honestly now you are just going against everything we know.

My point there is was the Northmen and the Starks are civilized First Men that essentially live the same lifestyle as the Southron nobles aside from certain little things - like worshiping the old gods, having no knights, having more savage tourneys. The whole Stark thing of doing your killings yourself seems to be something that is not necessary a trait of all Northmen (1)Roose Bolton certainly doesn't execute or torture everyone with his own hands).

2)The true First Men lifestyle is the lifestyle of the clansmen in the Mountains of the Moon and the Free Folk beyond the Wall. Those are the real First Men who never adopted anything Andal, and who still keep customs that are remarkably different from the customs in the North.

3)I think you could make a case that the whole 'feudal castle culture' of the Seven Kingdoms and the Targaryen era is mostly Andal culture. First Men culture as continued by the Free Folk, the mountain clans in the North, the clansmen in the Mountains of the Moon, and possibly even in the Neck seems to be more egalitarian and less hierarchic/feudal. Your betters are more chieftains and first among equals rather than kings or lords who rule by divine right. One assumes that the early First Men petty kingdoms all looked more or less like that with those 'petty kings' not exactly being 'modern kings' in any real sense of the word. In that sense, I think, one can also make a case that the Starks reshaped their domains in the North into a kingdom after the Andal model down in the South to ensure its survival. One of the last remains of 'ancient First Man culture' would be the Starks obsession about doing the killing yourself. That's the type of personal responsibility/strength that the wildlings also want to see in their leaders and kings. If you don't have the stomach for butchery you are not strong enough to rule or lead, and if you are not strong enough to rule or lead, you are neither a leader nor a king, regardless who your father was.

4)In regards to the Starks it would be more correct to assume that they only retain some First Men blood considering that the intermarried with the Manderlys, Blackwoods, and Royces all of which would have more than a drop of Andal blood. Not to mention that many of the Northern houses the Starks took their other brides from might have intermarried with other houses of Andal descent.

And Catelyn's children all inherited the Andal ancestry of their mother. Yes, the Tullys are originally also First Men but they are one of the most andalized houses in the Riverlands.

Thinking about all that one actually wonders if it makes sense to assume that the very ancient First Men actually were related to each other despite the fact that they claimed certain names. 5)Gerrick Kingsblood claims a certain ancestry as well, but there is no proof. Who is to say that the very ancient kings ruling from Barrowton, Winterfell, Highgarden, Casterly Rock, the Hightower, etc. actually were the sons/descendant of some guy whose name they claimed or whether they just killed the previous king and claimed the name along with the lands/castle they had taken or adopted it later on as a means of continuity?

6)Blood and dynasties most certainly were completely irrelevant in ancient First Men culture.

 1) I dont recall Roose ordering any executions so we don't know if he executes men himself or not so this is a bogus statement.

2) you mean the people who fell to savagery and don't work metal not even bronze, the true First Men would be the Thenn's.

3) Really then why do the Thenn's consider there Magnar to be a demi-god who they worship and who's son is his undisputed heir, and we get information on other ancient First men kingdoms in twoiaf so this is definitly not just a Andal concept.

4) Its not about genetics its about as what they identify themselves and they identify as First Men no matter how much Andal blood has entered there bloodline.

5) And is ridiculed by his own people for his claims so this only proofs that its whery hard to claim a ancestry that is not actually true.

6) This is just plain whisfull thinking on your part becouse it fits your theory, the houses of First Men decent al have a founding mythical ancestor that they whery much identify with so blood and dynasty obvieusly did matter a lot two them.

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Lord Vary's most of the time you have at least some valid points but honestly now you are just going against everything we know.

 1) I dont recall Roose ordering any executions so we don't know if he executes men himself or not so this is a bogus statement.

2) you mean the people who fell to savagery and don't work metal not even bronze, the true First Men would be the Thenn's.

3) Really then why do the Thenn's consider there Magnar to be a demi-god who they worship and who's son is his undisputed heir, and we get information on other ancient First men kingdoms in twoiaf so this is definitly not just a Andal concept.

4) Its not about genetics its about as what they identify themselves and they identify as First Men no matter how much Andal blood has entered there bloodline.

5) And is ridiculed by his own people for his claims so this only proofs that its whery hard to claim a ancestry that is not actually true.

6) This is just plain whisfull thinking on your part becouse it fits your theory, the houses of First Men decent al have a founding mythical ancestor that they whery much identify with so blood and dynasty obvieusly did matter a lot two them.

 

1. Roose has Amory Lorch thrown in the bear pit in ACoK and he has the squatters in Winterfell hanged who hid among the ruins prior to his arrival there. This is more than enough evidence that Roose Bolton doesn't execute any criminal (or person he wants to get rid of) in his power personally.

2. The Thennish lifestyle could reflect an aspect of First Men culture as well but it is clearly not the predominant culture if the clansmen of the Mountains of the Moons are any indication. They are all direct descendants of those First Men who were driven into the mountains by the Andals after they took over the Vale. I assume the Thenns developed their culture/society on their own, most likely triggered by the fact that their valley was very fertile for some reason, allowing them to develop a more sophisticated culture over time. Nothing suggests the ancient First Men all throughout Westeros once had a culture/society similar to the Thenns.

3. That would be special Thenn culture. Not that the demigod aspect is missing in all the other cultures in Westeros. I did not say there were no First Men kingdoms prior to the Andal arrival. There certainly were such kingdoms. What I said is that those kingdoms would have been very different from the later modern kingdoms we know, with a different concept of kingship and nobility (flat hierarchies, nobility actually being guys who were capable of leading/getting stuff done, and kings essentially being the top dog chieftains who were respected by their peers because of their charisma and personality - like Mance is). This is, of course, not discussed in TWoIaF - but then, there wouldn't be any firsthand sources to be found in Westeros. But the idea that the importance of blood and ancestry was already predominant in the Dawn Age or the Age of Heroes makes little sense.

4. I don't follow you there. Putting a label on yourself claiming you are this and that doesn't make it so unless you have authority to define everything to suit your needs. I'd agree that the Starks still see themselves as First Men, but I'm not sure they can claim this if it is referring to racial purity or the customs they follow. If you reread Jon's various conversations with the Free Folk (Ygritte, Mance, Tormund, etc.) you'll notice that the true First Men are the wildlings, not the tamed kneelers south of the Wall. The Starks effectively practice a diluted or corrupted version of the worship of the old gods if you compare it to the piety of Varamyr's parents or the other wildlings who actually still sacrifice beings to their heart trees (there were burned remains in the mouth of that tree in Whitetree if I remember correctly) and they also still believe in the connected animism behind/beneath the weirwood cult (the woods witch telling Varamyr's parents what happened to his brother after his death, and Varamyr effectively experiencing something like that when he experienced his true death).

5. Gerrick Kingsblood is ridiculed because he is neither a leader nor very strong. Assuming he was a strong and powerful guy like Mance nobody would dare question his ancestry from Raymun Redbeard. Might makes right among the wildlings, and therefore it should be rather easy to claim you are descended from this or that guy or demand that people address you as Stark, Hightower, or Gardener if you have the power to punish anyone who defies you. In a society that slowly transits from the law of the jungle to a society in which bloodlines and dynasties are honored and revered it should be very easy to fake your ancestry or claim that you are this or that guy's great-grandson. I'm not saying that this necessarily had an effect on the time covered by the series, though. I did not intend to say that ancestry and civilization were not yet in existence when the Andals came - I said the petty kingdoms of that time were different from those created after Andals had arrived. They would have been already kingdoms of some sort, but not yet as sophisticated as the later Andal kingdoms, and especially the wilder kingdoms up in the North closer to the Wall would have been not as absolute as the more sophisticated kingdoms - for instance, the Lannisters were always the predominant and most powerful kings in the West due to the security and wealth of Casterly Rock and their control of Lannisport just as the semi-divine origin of the Gardeners and their magical living throne gave them an aura of superiority no other king in Westeros ever had. By comparison, the Starks had to beat many of the other northern into submission.

6. The stories of mythical ancestors could only come up in a time in which ancestry had become important to legitimize political power. All we can say is that the stories of Brandon the Builder, Garth the Gardener (not necessarily Garth Greenhand because he seems to be as much a religious/divine figure as a mythical ancestor), Lann the Clever, and so on reflect the desire of the later generations to have a legendary founder of their house. Whether that guy really existed or not or whether they actually descend from him or her isn't proven by the mere existence of such a story. All this proves is that the ancestry was already important when those stories came. Now, it could be that this was already the case when (some of) those legendary figures lived, but it is just as likely that it only happened decades or centuries later (i.e. after the Long Night) and then certain people began connecting those legendary figures to their own bloodlines and noble houses. You would have noted that no legendary founder actually had a house name, after all.

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