Roberts love of Lyanna, how real was it?

[White Ravens]

New to the Forum, I have been reading for years and just now joined. Love this place!!

The one question I have always wondered was about Roberts love. If he was so in love with Lyanna why did he not go to Dorne after her with Ned? And also what about all this whoring around he did during the war. I get it, a lot of people did it during the war. It's just he acts like no one has ever loved anyone as he loved her. 

 

Many help would be appreciated. 

Robert and Lyanna were to wed because their fathers arranged it for political reasons.   That Lyanna was beautiful and the sister of his best buddy Ned was a bonus in Robert's mind and it helped him to idealize Lyanna in his mind while he continued to fuck everything that moved wherever he went.  A man like Robert is incapable of loving a woman because he isn't even interested in a relationship based on mutual respect.  He thinks women are only for fucking. 

[FuzzyJAM]

I think he thought he loved her, but love can be such a relative thing. E was obviously deeply affected by her disappearance and death.

If we're going to accept that Rhaegar loved her enough after 2-3 encounters to abandon his family and forsake his duties, it's hardly a stretch to believe Robert loved her.

It seems very unlikely that Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually in love, whatever they themselves believed, when they ran off together.  Infatuation at most, with the possibility that it developed into genuine love.  I suspect Rhaegar's motives were in large part to fulfill prophecy anyway, and Lyanna was very young.

Back to Robert, he did love Lyanna in a way, and that way was as a possession.  Lyanna was his, Rhaegar stole her, he's mad.  His response to the (supposed) rapes is that of anger at Rhaegar, not misery for Lyanna.  This is very much a characteristic of love of possessions, and anger at those who "steal" them, rather than love of a human being.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rhaegar and Lyanna lived together for around a year. I think they got enough time to know each other and develop real love

In any case, why Robert's selfish feelings are ok, but Lyanna's are "treacherous"? Robert wanted Lyanna but she didn't want him, and we should be singing sad songs for him? Lyanna wanted Rhaegar and it was her choice. She rebelled. It's not different from what many other men and women in Westeros have done before, tbh. Robert and Brandon fucked ladies without caring about their honours or their families' and no one bats an eye. Lyanna shows independence and everybody loses their heads

[Lord Lannister]

Robert loved the idea of Lyanna. He built up a fictionalized version of his ideal woman up in his head and lamented her whenever real women failed to live up to his fantasy. In reality, I doubt the real Lyanna was anything like the idealized version of her inside Robert's head.

[FuzzyJAM]

Rhaegar and Lyanna lived together for around a year. I think they got enough time to know each other and develop real love

In any case, why Robert's selfish feelings are ok, but Lyanna's are "treacherous"? Robert wanted Lyanna but she didn't want him, and we should be singing sad songs for him? Lyanna wanted Rhaegar and it was her choice. She rebelled. It's not different from what many other men and women in Westeros have done before, tbh. Robert and Brandon fucked ladies without caring about their honours or their families' and no one bats an eye. Lyanna shows independence and everybody loses their heads

As I said, genuine love could have developed.  We don't know.  But at the crucial decision to run off, it could only have been infatuation.  

I'm not sure if you were responding to me, but I definitely wouldn't call what Lyanna did "treachery".  Unwise, morally wrong because of semi-predictable consequences (though it's worth noting that the existence of those consequences is entirely unfair - nevertheless, they exist) - yeah, I'd call it that.  But Rhaegar, a supposedly highly intelligent prince, seems the guy to blame for it mostly, not the teenager infatuated with him and justifiably upset about her impending marriage.  And even Rhaegar (and maybe Lyanna, if he talked to her) could possibly be forgiven if he believed it was prophetically necessary or whatever...if we accept religious (magical) belief (delusion?) as a justification for actions.  Essentially, I think Lyanna did something she shouldn't have done but which is entirely understandable for a young woman in an entirely unjust system, but until we know more it's hard to really say anything except that.

It should be noted that sleeping around isn't the same as eloping, though.  Brandon never did that, and it was the eloping that I think was the real problem.  Had Lyanna fucked Rhaegar and left it at that (as Brandon and Robert did with their women) then things would be different.  As a woman she probably would have been judged harsher than them, but it wouldn't be the same sort of thing at all.  Remember that males who did break their betrothals (e.g. Duncan Targaryen) did cause major problems, even another Baratheon rebellion!  

[Taenqyrhae]

Robert tells Ned that he "never felt so alive" as when he was fighting for the crown.  So the best time of his life is when he thought the woman he supposedly loved was getting continually raped.  

Dunno about you, but I can't imagine someone who's truly in love feeling great while [they think] the object of their affections is getting raped.  

"feeling alive" is not synonymous with "feeling great".  When your life becomes dominated by ennui, memories of more exciting times can make you feel like you were more "alive" in the past.  I would say I felt more alive back when I was struggling to survive and living on the fringes of society back in the 1990s, but I wouldn't really trade my current boring life where I just sit in an office most days and never have to get in fights or run for my life for the old days.

[Ser Creighton]

Rhaegar and Lyanna lived together for around a year. I think they got enough time to know each other and develop real love

In any case, why Robert's selfish feelings are ok, but Lyanna's are "treacherous"? Robert wanted Lyanna but she didn't want him, and we should be singing sad songs for him? Lyanna wanted Rhaegar and it was her choice. She rebelled. It's not different from what many other men and women in Westeros have done before, tbh. Robert and Brandon fucked ladies without caring about their honours or their families' and no one bats an eye. Lyanna shows independence and everybody loses their heads

I actually equate Robert and Rhaegar to the Mountain and Hound. The little hound puppy saw a shinny, and was like cool shinny. But someone had given the mountain the shinny, so he flew into a rage and stuck the puppies face in the fire cause that is his shinny even though he really could of cared less.

It became important once someone else wanted it, or when the shinny didn't want someone who is not used to rejection. Plus Robert already seemed to be jealous of Rhaegar, now Lyanna who he really references more as an object that belongs to him rejects his epicness for a guy he probably called Fabio the Emo Harp playing fruit basket. Reject me for that princess, I doubt it the guy probably kidnapped her and is raping her, how could she ever not want the Robert? The Robert has more hair on his nut sack then Princess Rhaegar has on his head.

Robert:
Who does she think she is?
That girl has tangled with the wrong man!
Ned:
Darn right.
Robert:
No one says "no" to Robert!
Dismissed! Rejected!
Publicly humiliated! Why, it's more than I can bear.
Ned:
More beer?
Robert:
What for? Nothing helps. I'm disgraced.
Ned:
Who, you? Never! Robert, you've got to pull yourself together.
Ned:
Gosh it disturbs me to see you, Ro-bert
Looking so down in the dumps
Ev'ry guy here'd love to be you, Ro-bert
Even when taking your lumps
There's no man in Kingdom as admired as you
You're ev'ryone's favorite guy
Ev'ryone's awed and inspired by you
And it's not very hard to see why
No one's slick as Robert
No one's quick as Robert
No one's neck's as incredibly thick as Robert's
For there's no man in town half as manly
Perfect, a pure paragon!
You can ask any Tom, Dick or Renly
And they'll tell you whose team they prefer to be on
Ned and Chorus:
No one's been like Robert
A king pin like Robert
Ned:
No one's got a swell cleft in his chin like Robert
Robert:
As a specimen, yes, I'm intimidating!
Ned and Chorus:
My what a guy, that Ro-bert!
Give five "hurrahs!"
Give twelve "hip-hips!"
Ned:
Robert is the best
And the rest is all drips
Chorus:
No one fights like Robert
Douses lights like Robert

Ned:
In a wrestling match nobody bites like Robert!
Bimbettes:
For there's no one as burly and brawny
Robert:
As you see I've got biceps to spare
Ned:
Not a bit of him's scraggly or scrawny
Robert:
That's right!
And ev'ry last inch of me's covered with hair
Chorus:
No one hits like Robert
Matches wits like Robert
Ned:
In a spitting match nobody spits like Robert
Robert:
I'm espcially good at expectorating!
Ptoooie!
Chorus:
Ten points for Robert!
Robert:
When I was a lad I ate four dozen eggs
Ev'ry morning to help me get large
And now that I'm grown I eat five dozen eggs
So I'm roughly the size of a barge!
Chorus:
Oh, ahhh, wow!
My what a guy, that Robert!
No one hammers like Robert
Makes those beauts like Robert
Ned:
Then goes tromping around wearing boots like Robert
Robert:
I use antlers in all of my decorating!
Chorus:
My what a guy,
Robert!

This has been a totally original piece by me and not a word for word parody of Disney's Gaston where all I did was change the names and two words.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taenqyrhae]

I actually equate Robert and Rhaegar to the Mountain and Hound. The little hound puppy saw a shinny, and was like cool shinny. But someone had given the mountain the shinny, so he flew into a rage and stuck the puppies face in the fire cause that is his shinny even though he really could of cared less.

It became important once someone else wanted it, or when the shinny didn't want someone who is not used to rejection. Plus Robert already seemed to be jealous of Rhaegar, now Lyanna who he really references more as an object that belongs to him rejects his epicness for a guy he probably called Fabio the Emo Harp playing fruit basket. Reject me for that princess, I doubt it the guy probably kidnapped her and is raping her, how could she ever not want the Robert? The Robert has more hair on his nut sack then Princess Rhaegar has on his head.

Robert:
Who does she think she is?
That girl has tangled with the wrong man!
Ned:
Darn right.
Robert:
No one says "no" to Robert!
Dismissed! Rejected!
Publicly humiliated! Why, it's more than I can bear.
Ned:
More beer?
Robert:
What for? Nothing helps. I'm disgraced.
Ned:
Who, you? Never! Robert, you've got to pull yourself together.
Ned:
Gosh it disturbs me to see you, Ro-bert
Looking so down in the dumps
Ev'ry guy here'd love to be you, Ro-bert
Even when taking your lumps
There's no man in Kingdom as admired as you
You're ev'ryone's favorite guy
Ev'ryone's awed and inspired by you
And it's not very hard to see why
No one's slick as Robert
No one's quick as Robert
No one's neck's as incredibly thick as Robert's
For there's no man in town half as manly
Perfect, a pure paragon!
You can ask any Tom, Dick or Renly
And they'll tell you whose team they prefer to be on
Ned and Chorus:
No one's been like Robert
A king pin like Robert
Ned:
No one's got a swell cleft in his chin like Robert
Robert:
As a specimen, yes, I'm intimidating!
Ned and Chorus:
My what a guy, that Robert!
Give five "hurrahs!"
Give twelve "hip-hips!"
Ned:
Robert is the best
And the rest is all drips
Chorus:
No one fights like Robert
Douses lights like Robert

Ned:
In a wrestling match nobody bites like Robert!
Bimbettes:
For there's no one as burly and brawny
Robert:
As you see I've got biceps to spare
Ned:
Not a bit of him's scraggly or scrawny
Robert:
That's right!
And ev'ry last inch of me's covered with hair
Chorus:
No one hits like Robert
Matches wits like Robert
Ned:
In a spitting match nobody spits like Robert
Robert:
I'm espcially good at expectorating!
Ptoooie!
Chorus:
Ten points for Robert!
Robert:
When I was a lad I ate four dozen eggs
Ev'ry morning to help me get large
And now that I'm grown I eat five dozen eggs
So I'm roughly the size of a barge!
Chorus:
Oh, ahhh, wow!
My what a guy, that Robert!
No one hammers like Robert
Makes those beauts like Robert
Ned:
Then goes tromping around wearing boots like Robert
Robert:
I use antlers in all of my decorating!
Chorus:
My what a guy,
Robert!

This has been a totally original piece by me and not a word for word parody of Disney's Gaston where all I did was change the names and two words.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hah, at first I thought it was a parody of a song in the Robin Williams Popeye movie about Bluto.  I haven't seen Beauty and the Beast.

[FuzzyJAM]

"feeling alive" is not synonymous with "feeling great".  When your life becomes dominated by ennui, memories of more exciting times can make you feel like you were more "alive" in the past.  I would say I felt more alive back when I was struggling to survive and living on the fringes of society back in the 1990s, but I wouldn't really trade my current boring life where I just sit in an office most days and never have to get in fights or run for my life for the old days.

That definitely can be what the phrase means, but it seems clear to me that Robert looks on that time with great fondness so I don't think that argument really works.  

[Taenqyrhae]

That definitely can be what the phrase means, but it seems clear to me that Robert looks on that time with great fondness so I don't think that argument really works.  

He looks back on it with fondness because his current life is incredibly boring to him.  It doesn't make it fun.  I look back at aspects of my old life with fondness that I wouldn't want to re-live.  I think this is a pretty common human experience.

[FuzzyJAM]

He looks back on it with fondness because his current life is incredibly boring to him.  It doesn't make it fun.  I look back at aspects of my old life with fondness that I wouldn't want to re-live.  I think this is a pretty common human experience.

We can look back on "unfun" things with a certain nostalgia, sure, but a time characterised by the humongous suffering for the one we truly love?  

And if the wartime wasn't (to Robert) a time characterised by the massive suffering of Lyanna, then I don't think he can claim to have loved her except as a possession.  

[Ser Creighton]

Hah, at first I thought it was a parody of a song in the Robin Williams Popeye movie about Bluto.  I haven't seen Beauty and the Beast.

Oh you need to see it, can I just say Martin has totally ripped of Disney to create Jon. You got Snow White/ Jon Snow. Beauty and the Beast Belle a girl who is different from the others a Prince who is described as a monster, Gaston/Robert right down to the Antlers and of course the rose, little Red and the big bad wolf which is Yiggy and Jon, and then you got Cinderella, is Dawn his glass slipper? It is described as glass after all. Seems strange but they all fit pretty easily. He even had a sort of wicked step mom who has basically transformed into a witch.

It seems odd. Yet they all fit.

[Sarah Seastar]

Oh you need to see it, can I just say Martin has totally ripped of Disney to create Jon. You got Snow White/ Jon Snow. Beauty and the Beast Belle a girl who is different from the others a Prince who is described as a monster, Gaston/Robert right down to the Antlers and of course the rose, little Red and the big bad wolf which is Yiggy and Jon, and then you got Cinderella, is Dawn his glass slipper? It is described as glass after all. Seems strange but they all fit pretty easily. He even had a sort of wicked step mom who has basically transformed into a witch.

It seems odd. Yet they all fit.

Is this why I love ASOIAF so much?!?! I never made those connections but if you think about it they are classic stories and its kind of hard to write something that doesn't align at all with classic stories that have already been done.  Your post made me happy though, as I am a Disney freak!

[Taenqyrhae]

We can look back on "unfun" things with a certain nostalgia, sure, but a time characterised by the humongous suffering for the one we truly love?  

And if the wartime wasn't (to Robert) a time characterised by the massive suffering of Lyanna, then I don't think he can claim to have loved her except as a possession.  

I had some really great experiences within a year of things that caused me terrible grief, this is no kind of point at all.  You're just trying to defend your misinterpretation of what Robert said at this point.

[FuzzyJAM]

I had some really great experiences within a year of things that caused me terrible grief, this is no kind of point at all.  You're just trying to defend your misinterpretation of what Robert said at this point.

If you believe the person you love is being constantly brutalised and raped, you don't look on that time with fondness.  That should be a constant ache in your very soul.  Of course we can still have moments of joy during great depression - you're not the only one who has experienced that - but looking at such a time in an overall fond light, more fond than anything else you've lived?  No, I don't think that's possible if Robert experienced the pain of Lyanna as a person who loves someone should.  Pain of someone you love is not the same as personal pain.  And it's not as though I'm basing what I'm saying on this exclusively, this has to be understood in context.  As I said, you could use your interpretation for the phrase in general, but not for Robert given the circumstances.

If you think I'm simply being disingenuous then don't respond to me.

[Nyrhex]

Rhaegar and Lyanna lived together for around a year. I think they got enough time to know each other and develop real love

In any case, why Robert's selfish feelings are ok, but Lyanna's are "treacherous"? Robert wanted Lyanna but she didn't want him, and we should be singing sad songs for him? Lyanna wanted Rhaegar and it was her choice. She rebelled. It's not different from what many other men and women in Westeros have done before, tbh. Robert and Brandon fucked ladies without caring about their honours or their families' and no one bats an eye. Lyanna shows independence and everybody loses their heads

Rhaegar and Lyanna are a 23-year old guy and at best a 15 year old dumbass teen who fell for the married prince charming who went on and on about how thier kid, based off of a prophecy about as old as the tale of Gilgamesh is to us, would be the savior of all mankind from walking popsicles.

They had a few months of a romantic get-away with three dudes taking turns listening to them having sex in the midde of fuck-nowhere while her father and brother were murdered by his father, alongside a couple hundred people who were pretty much the bulk of the people she met on a daily basis. Sure, they could have developed real, messed up, egocentric love, and had gotten to know each other well. After all, they went on a nearly year-long honey-moon with pretty much three other guys for company, so they likely had some spare time between the "PTWP-bringing-shagging" to talk about their lives. They have so much in common after all, she likes to ride horses and not to think about her two remaining brothers being at war, he likes long walks at the beach, singing and ditching his wife, daughter and newborn son to have almost a year of sex with a teenage girl while there is a war going on.

Robert's feelings for Lyanna are those of a guy who had his head filled with stories about this girl by his best friend, he was about to marry this fairytale princess, which Ned later admits was not what his sister was actually like. Lyanna is the one who scolded Ned after he tries his sales pitch about Robert, that he would not be faithfull to her. She then goes after a higher ranking individual... who also happens to be married with kids...

It's not really hard to see why some readers take that to mean that her feelings for Rhaegar, if existed in the way you suggest, are hypocritical. She is literally the other woman, but Robert is the one we should feel was the worse of the two?

Lyanna did not fuck the stable boy, or Edmure Tully, or even Cersei, she fucked a married man. This is something aside from her running off and marrying someone else that she loves and who loves her, that is aside from independence and rebellion against a dictate from her father. That is Lyanna saying that cheating is wrong for the man but just fine if it's her man. And before the usual bandwagon of "but...but...Elia is Dornish! They are all open-minded in Dorne! They have lots of sex and don't care and Elia probably wanted to join at some point!", that's horse-shit. Aside from that being horse-shit, it's moving the goal-posts. It's not "Lyanna's feelings were better than Robert's because at least it's true love", it's "Let's build a scenario where Lyanna's actions don't paint her as a hypocritical shit and then try and rationalise it and find excuses". 

[WSmith84]

The idea of betrothing Sansa to Joffrey seems fine when it occurs.  It's messed up that he kept the betrothal going after the Mycah incident, but I suppose he was swamped with problems and hoped Joffrey might change in time.  If things had continued as they were, I would hope he'd have called it off.  

I think Ned never truly intended to wed Sansa to Joffrey after the Mycah incident, he just let the betrothal stand to keep Robert off of his back. Like in a 'yeah, sure our kids will marry Robert, sure.'

[SilentDystopia]

Rhaegar and Lyanna are a 23-year old guy and at best a 15 year old dumbass teen who fell for the married prince charming who went on and on about how thier kid, based off of a prophecy about as old as the tale of Gilgamesh is to us, would be the savior of all mankind from walking popsicles.

They had a few months of a romantic get-away with three dudes taking turns listening to them having sex in the midde of fuck-nowhere while her father and brother were murdered by his father, alongside a couple hundred people who were pretty much the bulk of the people she met on a daily basis. Sure, they could have developed real, messed up, egocentric love, and had gotten to know each other well. After all, they went on a nearly year-long honey-moon with pretty much three other guys for company, so they likely had some spare time between the "PTWP-bringing-shagging" to talk about their lives. They have so much in common after all, she likes to ride horses and not to think about her two remaining brothers being at war, he likes long walks at the beach, singing and ditching his wife, daughter and newborn son to have almost a year of sex with a teenage girl while there is a war going on.

Robert's feelings for Lyanna are those of a guy who had his head filled with stories about this girl by his best friend, he was about to marry this fairytale princess, which Ned later admits was not what his sister was actually like. Lyanna is the one who scolded Ned after he tries his sales pitch about Robert, that he would not be faithfull to her. She then goes after a higher ranking individual... who also happens to be married with kids...

It's not really hard to see why some readers take that to mean that her feelings for Rhaegar, if existed in the way you suggest, are hypocritical. She is literally the other woman, but Robert is the one we should feel was the worse of the two?

Lyanna did not fuck the stable boy, or Edmure Tully, or even Cersei, she fucked a married man. This is something aside from her running off and marrying someone else that she loves and who loves her, that is aside from independence and rebellion against a dictate from her father. That is Lyanna saying that cheating is wrong for the man but just fine if it's her man. And before the usual bandwagon of "but...but...Elia is Dornish! They are all open-minded in Dorne! They have lots of sex and don't care and Elia probably wanted to join at some point!", that's horse-shit. Aside from that being horse-shit, it's moving the goal-posts. It's not "Lyanna's feelings were better than Robert's because at least it's true love", it's "Let's build a scenario where Lyanna's actions don't paint her as a hypocritical shit and then try and rationalise it and find excuses". 

I have one thing to say about this post >:O!

I love it

Be ready for the backlash though 

[FuzzyJAM]

snipples

1) Targaryens practised polygamy.

2) We don't know Elia's feelings on the matter.  For all we know, she believed in the prophecy as well and encouraged Rhaegar.  It seems as though the two discussed it at any rate.

Your assumptions could very well be right, but it's not necessarily so at all.  We have to wait until we find out more, really.  It certainly seems very odd that they didn't at least tell people what was happening, to the extent that if they didn't have extremely good reasons then they did something very bad.  But we really don't know yet.

Also, in a world where people really can see the future and prophecies do actually come true, basing your life at least in part on them is perfectly valid.  You can't blame people for allowing magic to influence their decisions when magic is real.

[WSmith84]

1) Targaryens practised polygamy.

2) We don't know Elia's feelings on the matter.  For all we know, she believed in the prophecy as well and encouraged Rhaegar.  It seems as though the two discussed it at any rate.

Why would Elia be OK with Lyanna as second wife though? Could Rhaegar have picked a more politically dangerous woman as second wife? If Rickard was this ambitious guy who was building an anti-Targaryen power bloc, why would he be satisfied with losing the Stormlands in exchange for... nothing? A Royal marriage is nice, but if the grandkids don't stand to inherit anything, woudn't you rather have grandkids that ruled the Stormlands? Why would Elia be OK with an alliance of the North and Riverlands who might prefer Lyanna's children on the Throne? It's Elia children who are at risk from Rhaegar's second wife (and family). Maybe she was OK with it, but I personally find that unlikely.