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Roberts love of Lyanna, how real was it?


Jon Targaryen.

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I'm saying that your point seems to be based on a misunderstanding of a feeling that Robert has that is normal and recognizable.  Your argument is that the fact he can remember fondly aspects of a year during which terrible things were happening to a person he loved indicates he did not love this person.  This makes no sense to any person who has (A) experienced great personal loss and (B) has suffered ennui to the point where the "bad old days" sometimes feels preferable.

I had some great times in 2002.  For most of that year, I was living in a small apartment with my parents and watching my Dad die slowly while losing his identity to Alzheimers.  I still reminisce fondly of things that happened during that time.  It doesn't lessen my love of my Dad.

One of the most memorable moments in my life, seeing Return of the Jedi at a drive-in theater, happened less than a month after my sister was brutally murdered.  That doesn't mean that I loved my sister less.

Robert had some memorable experiences during the rebellion, while his true love was captured and presumably being raped by Prince Rhaegar.  I don't find this unbelievable, nor do I see it in any way as a negative reflection on his love for her.

I see that you were born the year I was a senior in high school.  Live some more and you will understand how wrong this argument you are making is.

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Robert and Lyanna were to wed because their fathers arranged it for political reasons.   That Lyanna was beautiful and the sister of his best buddy Ned was a bonus in Robert's mind and it helped him to idealize Lyanna in his mind while he continued to fuck everything that moved wherever he went.  A man like Robert is incapable of loving a woman because he isn't even interested in a relationship based on mutual respect.  He thinks women are only for fucking. 

Robert's father never arranged for the marriage with Lyanna. 

Robert was the one who asked for Lyanna's hand. 

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Why would Elia be OK with Lyanna as second wife though? Could Rhaegar have picked a more politically dangerous woman as second wife? If Rickard was this ambitious guy who was building an anti-Targaryen power bloc, why would he be satisfied with losing the Stormlands in exchange for... nothing? A Royal marriage is nice, but if the grandkids don't stand to inherit anything, woudn't you rather have grandkids that ruled the Stormlands? Why would Elia be OK with an alliance of the North and Riverlands who might prefer Lyanna's children on the Throne? It's Elia children who are at risk from Rhaegar's second wife (and family). Maybe she was OK with it, but I personally find that unlikely.

Depends on what Rhaegar said and Elia's character and why Lyanna was chosen and so many other things we don't really know at all.  It could just be that Elia was really into the prophecy.  Or maybe Elia was furious and greatly hurt.  I think it's reasonable to lean towards "greatly hurt", and certainly Rhaegar and Lyanna better have some damn good explanations for what they did.  I'm absolutely not arguing for a favourable interpretation, I'm pointing out that no interpretation right now is actually reasonable because it relies on a huge amount of assumptions about something we're deliberately kept in dark about.

And I have to reiterate, in a world where prophecy is real, it's not that odd for people to base their actions around them.  Maybe it's not wise because magic is so fickle, but it's at least not something that we can dismiss out of hand.  

As an aside, this is just making me wonder if GRRM has read Kierkegaard.  I'm trying to think of any hints that Rhaegar is a "knight of faith" cf. tragic hero . . .hm. . .probably not, but I'd like to ask him.  :)

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I'm saying that your point seems to be based on a misunderstanding of a feeling that Robert has that is normal and recognizable.  Your argument is that the fact he can remember fondly aspects of a year during which terrible things were happening to a person he loved indicates he did not love this person.  This makes no sense to any person who has (A) experienced great personal loss and (B) has suffered ennui to the point where the "bad old days" sometimes feels preferable.

I had some great times in 2002.  For most of that year, I was living in a small apartment with my parents and watching my Dad die slowly while losing his identity to Alzheimers.  I still reminisce fondly of things that happened during that time.  It doesn't lessen my love of my Dad.

One of the most memorable moments in my life, seeing Return of the Jedi at a drive-in theater, happened less than a month after my sister was brutally murdered.  That doesn't mean that I loved my sister less.

Robert had some memorable experiences during the rebellion, while his true love was captured and presumably being raped by Prince Rhaegar.  I don't find this unbelievable, nor do I see it in any way as a negative reflection on his love for her.

I see that you were born the year I was a senior in high school.  Live some more and you will understand how wrong this argument you are making is.

Robert is not remembering individual incidents with fondness.  Of course that's entirely normal, and anyone who's suffered periods of great sadness can relate.  But with Robert, he's remembering the period as a whole with great fondness.  There is a massive, massive difference.  

Now, you could interpret what he's saying in the way you like. . .if it weren't for everything else we know about the situation which makes such an interpretation extremely unlikely.

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I actually equate Robert and Rhaegar to the Mountain and Hound. The little hound puppy saw a shinny, and was like cool shinny. But someone had given the mountain the shinny, so he flew into a rage and stuck the puppies face in the fire cause that is his shinny even though he really could of cared less.

It became important once someone else wanted it, or when the shinny didn't want someone who is not used to rejection. Plus Robert already seemed to be jealous of Rhaegar, now Lyanna who he really references more as an object that belongs to him rejects his epicness for a guy he probably called Fabio the Emo Harp playing fruit basket. Reject me for that princess, I doubt it the guy probably kidnapped her and is raping her, how could she ever not want the Robert? The Robert has more hair on his nut sack then Princess Rhaegar has on his head.

Robert:
Who does she think she is?
That girl has tangled with the wrong man!
Ned:
Darn right.
Robert:
No one says "no" to Robert!
Dismissed! Rejected!
Publicly humiliated! Why, it's more than I can bear.
Ned:
More beer?
Robert:
What for? Nothing helps. I'm disgraced.
Ned:
Who, you? Never! Robert, you've got to pull yourself together.
Ned:
Gosh it disturbs me to see you, Ro-bert
Looking so down in the dumps
Ev'ry guy here'd love to be you, Ro-bert
Even when taking your lumps
There's no man in Kingdom as admired as you
You're ev'ryone's favorite guy
Ev'ryone's awed and inspired by you
And it's not very hard to see why
No one's slick as Robert
No one's quick as Robert
No one's neck's as incredibly thick as Robert's
For there's no man in town half as manly
Perfect, a pure paragon!
You can ask any Tom, Dick or Renly
And they'll tell you whose team they prefer to be on
Ned and Chorus:
No one's been like Robert
A king pin like Robert
Ned:
No one's got a swell cleft in his chin like Robert
Robert:
As a specimen, yes, I'm intimidating!
Ned and Chorus:
My what a guy, that Ro-bert!
Give five "hurrahs!"
Give twelve "hip-hips!"
Ned:
Robert is the best
And the rest is all drips
Chorus:
No one fights like Robert
Douses lights like Robert

Ned:
In a wrestling match nobody bites like Robert!
Bimbettes:
For there's no one as burly and brawny
Robert:
As you see I've got biceps to spare
Ned:
Not a bit of him's scraggly or scrawny
Robert:
That's right!
And ev'ry last inch of me's covered with hair
Chorus:
No one hits like Robert
Matches wits like Robert
Ned:
In a spitting match nobody spits like Robert
Robert:
I'm espcially good at expectorating!
Ptoooie!
Chorus:
Ten points for Robert!
Robert:
When I was a lad I ate four dozen eggs
Ev'ry morning to help me get large
And now that I'm grown I eat five dozen eggs
So I'm roughly the size of a barge!
Chorus:
Oh, ahhh, wow!
My what a guy, that Robert!
No one hammers like Robert
Makes those beauts like Robert
Ned:
Then goes tromping around wearing boots like Robert
Robert:
I use antlers in all of my decorating!
Chorus:
My what a guy,
Robert!

This has been a totally original piece by me and not a word for word parody of Disney's Gaston where all I did was change the names and two words.

 
 

 

 

 

 

:lmao: I love you <3

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1) Targaryens practised polygamy.

2) We don't know Elia's feelings on the matter.  For all we know, she believed in the prophecy as well and encouraged Rhaegar.  It seems as though the two discussed it at any rate.

Your assumptions could very well be right, but it's not necessarily so at all.  We have to wait until we find out more, really.  It certainly seems very odd that they didn't at least tell people what was happening, to the extent that if they didn't have extremely good reasons then they did something very bad.  But we really don't know yet.

Also, in a world where people really can see the future and prophecies do actually come true, basing your life at least in part on them is perfectly valid.  You can't blame people for allowing magic to influence their decisions when magic is real.

that's horse-shit. Aside from that being horse-shit, it's moving the goal-posts. It's not "Lyanna's feelings were better than Robert's because at least it's true love", it's "Let's build a scenario where Lyanna's actions don't paint her as a hypocritical shit and then try and rationalise it and find excuses". 

You realise that this fits here again, right? I mean, the scenario calls for the reader to give so much credit to Lyanna here. That a Stark who had not heared of anyone in her family having two wives in the past several thousand years would be completely okay with being a second wife and we should not have that sour taste in our mouth after her rand on Robert because of that. That Elia would also be completely on board With Rhaegar's plan for this 14 year old girl (at the time) based on a prophacy thousands of years old, while people like Stannis have problems convincing people that Joffrey is not Robert's. A Baratheon! If there is anything certain in these books it's that Baratheons have very specific physical traits. After close on 8,000 years, the people of Westeros should have really figured this one out by now. Roses are red, a Lannister pays his debts, a long summer means a long winter, Starks have no sense of humor and Baratheons have black hair and blue eyes.

You realise that this kind of thinking basically asks for complete faith in Lyanna here, to go with a very convoluted scenario, just so we could justify Lyanna and not give her shit for being a hypocrite? Why? Why should we give her that credit, when there are just so many reasons to assume that she is exactly what she looks and sounds like - a teen who thinks she is in love with a guy who reads old scrolls and thinks (and is wrong at least once) that it's real and that he knows who the hero is.

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You realise that this fits here again, right? I mean, the scenario calls for the reader to give so much credit to Lyanna here. That a Stark who had not heared of anyone in her family having two wives in the past several thousand years would be completely okay with being a second wife and we should not have that sour taste in our mouth after her rand on Robert because of that. That Elia would also be completely on board With Rhaegar's plan for this 14 year old girl (at the time) based on a prophacy thousands of years old, while people like Stannis have problems convincing people that Joffrey is not Robert's. A Baratheon! If there is anything certain in these books it's that Baratheons have very specific physical traits. After close on 8,000 years, the people of Westeros should have really figured this one out by now. Roses are red, a Lannister pays his debts, a long summer means a long winter, Starks have no sense of humor and Baratheons have black hair and blue eyes.

You realise that this kind of thinking basically asks for complete faith in Lyanna here, to go with a very convoluted scenario, just so we could justify Lyanna and not give her shit for being a hypocrite? Why? Why should we give her that credit, when there are just so many reasons to assume that she is exactly what she looks and sounds like - a teen who thinks she is in love with a guy who reads old scrolls and thinks (and is wrong at least once) that it's real and that he knows who the hero is.

I'm not asking for any faith in Lyanna.  I'm not arguing that your interpretation is wrong, except insofar as you assume it's correct.  I'm arguing that actually we don't know what happened because that's the truth.  There have been enough twists and turns in this narrative so far that we shouldn't assume things about stuff we're deliberately kept in the dark on.

For the record, Lyanna never ranted about Robert, did she?  She wasn't a big fan of his, she knew he wouldn't be faithful, but as far as I recall she said as much with a sad look in her eyes or however the books put it.  There's no great anger there, is there?  Perhaps I'm misremembering.  

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And if the wartime wasn't (to Robert) a time characterised by the massive suffering of Lyanna, then I don't think he can claim to have loved her except as a possession.  

Actually, this is something many of us discuss a lot in relation to Robert's "love" for Lyanna. Robert knew (or so he believed) that the girl was being held against her will and raped and hence, he had no problem whoring and having fun around.

Compare that to how Jon is so distressed about the idea of Arya marrying Ramsay, how brokenhearted was the Hound when he found out Sansa married Tyrion and how much of a dead man Jorah became after he knew Dany married again. The three of them displayed different types of love, but all of them had something in common: they were in deep pain, none of them said "oh, I'm so sad I'll go to a brothel to have sex once and again".

Robert loved one thing and thought to love another one: war and Lyanna. And he idealized both. I'm sure war was something he thought to be "fun" because "fuck yeah, violence and my hammer!", without caring that there were hundreds of people suffering due to this piss contest between noblemen's hurt egos. And I'm also sure that Lyanna was what helped to romanticise the war in his head: he was doing it in order to rescue his lady, despite his lady didn't want him to rescue her. So, the idea of Lyanna being a willing participant in leaving him for Rhaegar could have also crushed his idealistic vision of war, something he enjoyed.

Rhaegar and Lyanna are a 23-year old guy and at best a 15 year old dumbass teen who fell for the married prince charming who went on and on about how thier kid, based off of a prophecy about as old as the tale of Gilgamesh is to us, would be the savior of all mankind from walking popsicles.

This is what you think, but there is no proof that's what it happen.

Why is Lyanna a 15 years old dumbass? Because she feel in love with a guy she found attractive and appealing? :dunno: Why people assume that loving Rhaegar Targaryen is a shallow action? I mean, if I fall for a handsome guy that makes me shallow? What if t he handsome guy is actually a good person? I lot of ladies and few guys probably felt attracted to Rhaegar, just like many people are attracted to actors or singers, but that doesn't mean these famous people are the image they project and they can't find real love by someone who knows them for real.

Now, that Lyanna and Rhaegar acted recklessly, no one denies that. But we have to play fair. Robb and Jeyne also did. And if Arya decides to run with the stable boy then she would also be a reckless dumbass teen :dunno: Seriously, the fact that both Rhaegar and Lyanna acted wrong doesn't mean what they felt for each other wasn't real.

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Now, that Lyanna and Rhaegar acted recklessly, no one denies that. But we have to play fair. Robb and Jeyne also did. And if Arya decides to run with the stable boy then she would also be a reckless dumbass teen :dunno: Seriously, the fact that both Rhaegar and Lyanna acted wrong doesn't mean what they felt for each other wasn't real.

I don't think it's real love, it's lust. How many times had they met ? Probably 2-3 before the "kidnapping". There's love and there's crush, it reads as a crush to me because it's shallow. The handsome prince and the wild lady against the world (and his wife+2 children), that's wildly stupid crush not love, love is down to the tiny bits and it lasts longer. It's like what Ned and Cat has, and Jaime to Cersei (though not Cersei to Jaime). 

She's the Anne Boleyn to Henry 8, their relationship would've gone to sewer in matter of years, with her attitude and reputation Lyanna wouldn't have lasted long in KL and Rhaegar would've grown tired of her behavior, just like Henry got tired of Anne. 

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I don't think it's real love, it's lust. How many times had they met ? Probably 2-3 before the "kidnapping". There's love and there's crush, it reads as a crush to me because it's shallow. The handsome prince and the wild lady against the world (and his wife+2 children), that's wildly stupid crush not love, love is down to the tiny bits and it lasts longer. It's like what Ned and Cat has, and Jaime to Cersei (though not Cersei to Jaime).

Ok, it was lust when they met. And then, why couldn't have developed into real love?

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Actually, this is something many of us discuss a lot in relation to Robert's "love" for Lyanna. Robert knew (or so he believed) that the girl was being held against her will and raped and hence, he had no problem whoring and having fun around.

That is either very childish or trying to sling as much dirt and hope something sticks. It's a year of war, are you kidding me?

Compare that to how Jon is so distressed about the idea of Arya marrying Ramsay, how brokenhearted was the Hound when he found out Sansa married Tyrion and how much of a dead man Jorah became after he knew Dany married again. The three of them displayed different types of love, but all of them had something in common: they were in deep pain, none of them said "oh, I'm so sad I'll go to a brothel to have sex once and again".

Jon goes on about his daily life for the next, oh, couple of months or so? He also jokes with his friends, takes stock of the fridge, trains in the yard, fantasises about taking Val to wife and being lord of Winterfell, deals in petty politics and enjoys a horn of ale. The Hound goes on to drink at taverns while he tries and figure out the best source of income after he sells off Arya and pisses away the reward. Jorah is in his 40's and spends his days fantasising about the 14-year old who looks just like his ex. He then goes to whore-houses where he tries to find any who looks like his fetish, and happens to stumble on what he thinks is a get-out-of-jail-free card.

The three examples are horrible, and the last one is literally the worst you could come up with to justify your bias against Robert and in favor of Lyanna.

 

Robert loved one thing and thought to love another one: war and Lyanna. And he idealized both. I'm sure war was something he thought to be "fun" because "fuck yeah, violence and my hammer!", without caring that there were hundreds of people suffering due to this piss contest between noblemen's hurt egos. And I'm also sure that Lyanna was what helped to romanticise the war in his head: he was doing it in order to rescue his lady, despite his lady didn't want him to rescue her. So, the idea of Lyanna being a willing participant in leaving him for Rhaegar could have also crushed his idealistic vision of war, something he enjoyed.

In the same tone one can just as easily say that Rhaegar was an ideal for Lyanna, she idealized this love and was in a tower for over a year while her family and friends were butchered and thousands more died. Did she send a postcard to anyone? Why should she, it has nothing to do with her or Rhaegar or any of this romantic get-away in the desert with three other dudes just standing right across the door and listening to you fuck.

This is what you think, but there is no proof that's what it happen.

Why is Lyanna a 15 years old dumbass? Because she feel in love with a guy she found attractive and appealing? :dunno: Why people assume that loving Rhaegar Targaryen is a shallow action? I mean, if I fall for a handsome guy that makes me shallow? What if t he handsome guy is actually a good person? I lot of ladies and few guys probably felt attracted to Rhaegar, just like many people are attracted to actors or singers, but that doesn't mean these famous people are the image they project and they can't find real love by someone who knows them for real.

Now, that Lyanna and Rhaegar acted recklessly, no one denies that. But we have to play fair. Robb and Jeyne also did. And if Arya decides to run with the stable boy then she would also be a reckless dumbass teen :dunno: Seriously, the fact that both Rhaegar and Lyanna acted wrong doesn't mean what they felt for each other wasn't real.

What I think at leasat makes sense. Your version twists and turns, desperatly trying to find that sweet spot where Rhaegar and Lyanna don't end up being a couple of egocentric assholes.

Lyanna is a 15 year old dumbass because she is a 15 year old who thinks she found true love after a couple days in a big sports event. That alone should be enough.

Lyanna is a 15 year old dumbass because she is 15 years old and he is 23 and married with kids. That alone should be enough.

Lyanna is a 15 year old dumbass because she is a 15 year old who thinks that having a year-long honeymoon in the desert while there is a war going on because no one knows where you are or what is the story here, while her family and friends and dying, while the realm bleeds and thousands die, is just a great idea, and not event a postcard seemed in order at any point at all. 

The problem with trying to find excuses here is that either you screw over Rhaegar, and say he did not allow her to send letters (in which case she is an idiot for going after that loon), or you make her so clueless that over a year of war is not enough for her to get the memo.

If you fall for a handsome guy that is, outside of any context whatsoever, cool and all. If you fall in love with Hitler and stay with him in the bunker because you did not notice or care about the Soviet troops around you there is something wrong. You try desperatly to build a case for a negative context for Robert, but all signs point to Lyanna's actions have a far worse context. It does not matter here if Rhaegar was a good guy or if his songs got repetative and he ignored her in favor of his books outside of sex and meals. She gave us the readers her negative view of Robert's hypothetical actions in future, a future we never see because we see a man very different than what Robert could have been had there simply been a wedding to Lyanna. Lyanna then goes and does something which, on the surface, goes directly against that view.

Robb and Jeyne were married because of his honor, the Frey girls looking like the Frey grandpa, and allegedly a love potion. They were horny teens. If Arya runs off with the stable boy it's a dumb decision, but Arya never said, to the best of my recolection, anything negative about a future husband and him sleeping with other women and having bastards. Lyanna did, and so when you go and that comment about why we should feel so and so for Robert, but so and so for Lyanna - that's why. Because you are trying to completely undermine the context we have, just for the sake of trying to make Lyanna look good. She says something is negative about cheating husbands, and then runs off with a married man. On top of that you have the fact that she is a teen and his is significantly older, they are allegedly on the same page regarding prophecies thousands of years old. Yes, it seems there was something off with them on more than one level. With attacking the notion that we should view Lyanna's feelings as X, you made a claim that we should give her credit and that it could have been something real. Sure, it could have, but be honest, how many 15 year olds do you know who found true love? How many people do you know who choose to fuck someone in the same hotel room for close on a year while thier family and friends are dying with thousands more, all because they can't pick up the phone and try and sort shit out? How many look at Gilgamesh as reasoning to go and buy a boat?

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You're reading one hell of a lot into a single sentence on Lyanna's thoughts on Robert as remembered a decade and a half later.  She doesn't castigate Robert as an awful person, she just recognises that he wouldn't be faithful to her, which clearly makes her sad to think about.  There's no suggestion that this makes him a truly despicable person in her eyes or anything of the sort.  She doesn't claim to be any better than Robert, to claim that she'd be a better wife to him than he'd be a good husband to her.  She just knows he wouldn't make her happy, at least in that regard.

And I don't know why you're relating our world, where prophecy is nonsense, and Planetos, where prophecy is a real part of existence.  If you want to argue that you shouldn't trust magic because it's unreliable - sure, fine, that's an argument.  But don't say you shouldn't trust magic because in our world magic isn't real.  That makes zero sense.

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I do think he had romantic feelings for Lyanna, and they must have been genuine, because he grieved for her, still remembers her after years... It obviously affected him deeply. Yes, he idealized her memory, but it doesn't mean he didn't have feelings for her.

Romantic feelings =|= love though. It's really hard to love somebody you don't have a relationship with (that relationship doesn't need to be romantic, but you need to spend sometime interacting with the other person)

And while Robert might have been able to be in love with Lyanna, or the idea of he, while sleeping around as much as he did, it certainly doesn't mean Lyanna herself was obliged to reciprocate

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"Motherfucker stole mah woman!  That's a slight on my honour!"

Very much pride.

Robert is hardly especially concerned about his pride throughout the books. And pride would hardly make him  pay his respects to Lyanna 16 years later immediatly after arrival at Winterfell.

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Robert is hardly especially concerned about his pride throughout the books. And pride would hardly make him  pay his respects to Lyanna 16 years later immediatly after arrival at Winterfell.

I'm explaining why some of it can come from pride, as that other poster suggested. 

Robert's belief that he lost the love of his life is very much real, even if the love isn't.  No question he suffered from that belief and it makes up a significant part of the anger.

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New to the Forum, I have been reading for years and just now joined. Love this place!!

The one question I have always wondered was about Roberts love. If he was so in love with Lyanna why did he not go to Dorne after her with Ned? And also what about all this whoring around he did during the war. I get it, a lot of people did it during the war. It's just he acts like no one has ever loved anyone as he loved her. 

 

Many help would be appreciated. 

Robert loved Lyanna but it doesn't mean he would ever be faithful.  My opinion, he's in love with the idea of thinking he's in love with Lyanna.  He thinks he loves her because he never got to live with her.  I bet they end up hating each other within a year.

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