Star Wars Episode VII RETURN OF THE SPOILERS

[Arkash]

Also I hope I'm not alone in this but I thought BB-8 was friggin adorable. 

Totally agree ! I was really afraid I'd hate him, considering him just a marketting toy and a new Jar Jar, but, hell, he was magnificently funny and adorable ! 

[Kindly Old Man]

I liked Boyega's performance, just nothing about it seemed to fit with his backstory. He didn't seem like someone who had been indoctrinated as a fascist soldier since childhood, and grown up being referred to by a number.

[Nictarion]

Totally agree on BB8. I thought he looked incredibly stupid when I first saw images of him, a rolling soccer ball? Really? But he was great, his thumbs up was one of my favorite parts of the movie. 

[JonArryn]

I'm done discussing this. If you think this movie fits in with the established lore from the earlier movies, then fine. I've said what I think and I'm leaving it at that. My biggest problem with this movie isn't even the small problems, though there are a lot.

 

The problem is that it's basically a remake of A New Hope. Considering all the possibilities they had for an interesting and new storyline it's just a shame they went this way. It would have been a lot more interesting seeing a Jedi Order being created and on the rise and the problems that could come from within the Order as well as a large outside threats from new Sith and The New Empire. To see a new side of Star Wars and see Luke trying to build up what's been destroyed, and I'm not saying he shouldn't face threats and have problems along the way. All the while having new characters joing the jedis, and Rey would have been excellent there, as a badass female jedi strong in the force. Instead Luke takes Yodas place which doesn't really mesh with his personality and view from the OT.

 

If we could see Luke struggling on screen with the possibility that his jedis could turn to the dark side, instead of him being Yoda version 2 and getting exactly the story we've gotten before. I understand that you found the movie good, and I didn't. But there was a lot of potential with a new trilogy that's gone now, since they're doing remakes. 

[GeorgeIAF]

Enjoyed it, the final fight was forced though. No way Rey could have learned so fast the handling of a lightsaber, Luke needed 3 movies to learn, from Yoda and Obi-Wan, but she instantly learns how to trick others using mind-tricks and resist mind-reading, felt rushed.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I thought it was obvious that the reason Ren wears the mask is that a. he realises that he's not that scary and b. he's a Darth Vader fanboy who is trying to emulate his idol.

The fanboy angle even explains his extravagant lightsabre, you can totally see a young Ben* deciding that his lightsabre was going to be so much more awesome than those run-of-the-mill ones.

 

*My one complaint about Ren as a villain is just the fact that he is called Ben. Why Ben? That makes very little sense, neither Han nor Leia had a close connection to him. Actually I don't think Leia ever met the guy.

I got that, but then why would he take the mask off so easily? It would make sense if he took it off for Han, but for Rey makes no sense.

[Jon AS]

I got that, but then why would he take the mask off so easily? It would make sense if he took it off for Han, but for Rey makes no sense.

He seems to have a deeper interest in Rey. He also offers to teach her. Taking the mask off is a first step in trying to create a closer connection.

[HexMachina]

RumHam shared this in the lit thread already but I'll share it here too 

Biggest differences between TFA novel and film

[Buckwheat]

Yes, BB8 is cute ... but I still missed more of R2D2. It was so sad seeing him depressed. I hope we see more of R2 in the next one.

One of the first thoughts after seeing the movie was that it would be hilarious to have Luke as crazy as Yoda was after years of isolation, jumping around, laughing sillily and talking in Yoda-syntax (I know that Yoda was speaking like that in the prequels already). But then I have a weird sense of humour.

[JonArryn]

Yes, BB8 is cute ... but I still missed more of R2D2. It was so sad seeing him depressed. I hope we see more of R2 in the next one.

One of the first thoughts after seeing the movie was that it would be hilarious to have Luke as crazy as Yoda was after years of isolation, jumping around, laughing sillily and talking in Yoda-syntax (I know that Yoda was speaking like that in the prequels already). But then I have a weird sense of humour.

Yoda wasn't really crazy. It was mostly just a ploy to test Luke and see how he would treat him. He never acts that way again when it's established that he's Master Yoda.

[DaveSumm]

@Calibandar 

Well, nothing wrong with speculating, but she is very obviously Luke's daughter and they're not very subtle about it, are they?

 Was it really obvious? What weren't they subtle about? I think this has become a bit like R+L=J; we say it's obvious but we mean after dissecting it to death on a forum, it looks likely. Even if we accept she must have had training (which I dispute), is there anything at all that ties her to Luke? I actually like this theory a lot more:

(@Ser Creighton) I thought Kylo actually dropped her off. Luke would never leave her with the scrap dealer when there is a village with a guy who he trusts right there. Kylo had an immediate reaction when he got news a girl was with Finn and BB-8 on the Falcon coming off that planet. He force choked the informant as soon as he heard about the girl. He then made her the top priority over BB-8 which the general informs of when they are talking to Snoke. He then lied to Snoke saying he just planned to use her to take the map out of her mind. He could of got that from Finn. But he went right after Rey as soon as he landed, not Finn, not BB-8, not his father. The only thing he wanted was Rey. And look how he treated her compared to Poe, not a scratch on her. He read her thoughts, but he talked about her being lonely and an island. For Ren he was actually nice to her. Took off his helmet which he would not do for Poe, and was surprised that should could resist him. Later he offers to be her teacher. Dude has a soft spot for her, no question.

He seems to have a deeper interest in Rey. He also offers to teach her. Taking the mask off is a first step in trying to create a closer connection.

I'd totally forgotten about the bolded part. It seems far more in keeping with Kylo's character to discover a girl who's strong with the force (possibly at Luke's training school, possibly somewhere else) and dump her on a planet with a dodgy parts dealer so he can keep an eye on her. He doesn't know quite how strong she is and is surprised she can resist him, but doesn't ever comment that he didn't know she was Force sensitive (his line to Snoke was something along the lines of 'the Force is very strong with that one', not 'it turns out she's Force sensitive'.

Here's the part I'm struggling to reconcile; whether it was Luke or Ren or someone else, they left her with Unkar Plutt. And yet she still seems to want them to return. If there were no twist coming, I could picture her parents needing the money and selling her (although is she actually a slave?) and her being so young she's naively thought there was some mistake and that they are coming back.

But either way, I dislike Luke being the father. It puts us on a trajectory for a twist that won't have anything like the same impact as the Empire equivalent, it's widely posited amongst fandom and so won't be a surprise, only a confirmation. It necessitates a mind wipe, and I'm pretty sure we're inventing those for the sake of the theory. And it would need to explain why Luke would leave her with Unkar Plutt.

I still maintain that this is JJ; being heavy handed in his attempts to indicate she's strong with the Force and over doing it a bit wouldn't be anywhere near the most inaccurate thing he's done across all his movies. The takeaway from the movie for an average audience member who doesn't know what exactly one can do with the Force without training, is that she's simply Force strong. She registers the necessary surprise at being able to do a mind trick for this to hold water.

[Kindly Old Man]

I just hope Kylo Ren and Poe Dameron can put aside their differences long enough to make a 'Please Supreme Leader Snoke' novelty song. Obviously Ren will then cheat Poe out of the royalties bc he is evil.

[Horza]

It's mostly Poe's fault for not taking the union contract because he needed money fast. Guy needs to get his shit together.

[Veltigar]

That sounds about right, and it's why I think he's an awful scriptwriter. 

And he's never heard of the Force but 48 hours later is using it to guide two torpedoes into a 2-metre wide exhaused port?

Yeah, but the Death Star wasn't a force user . Luke's piloting skills are well established and the Force augmented that, which he used against a stationary target. Ren on the other hand was a force user and a pretty powerful one, which makes it different imo. He should have been more dynamic both in his movements and his force use. 

I actually feel like Rey's powers have been properly set-up (although, only if the theory about previous training in the Force holds water. I hadn't considered that theory after my first viewing, but it seems a good explanation) and they did a good job with her staff fighting earlier on. They also did a good job establishing the power off Chewie's bowcaster, but I still feel like Ren went down to easily in the end. Perhaps the staging could have been better in the end? 

Unless they open the new film with a timejump and a montage of Ren receiving extra training, it's going to be hard to take the inevitable follow-up to this fight serious. 

I don't get the Ren helmet removal grumble. They ALL wear helmets, that's what they do in the First Order, but they're not supposed to take them off - Ren is being a badass naughty boy by removing his so casually!

Domhnall Gleeson never wore a helmet IIRC

[HexMachina]

I think it would be quite interesting if we saw Ren training with Snoke in the next film, sort of a contrast/opposite to Luke training with Yoda in ESB. And if Luke is also training Rey in the next film, the contrast between the two trainings could work very well. Just idly speculating here of course.

On the Plagueis thing from the last thread: The article I linked about the book (will spoiler tag this since its from the book)

Says Snoke saw the Empire rise and fall, knew Vader was Luke's father, and a few other things. I imagine this is going to lead credence to the Plagueis theory then? (I still don't really care one way or the other, but that was my first thought when I read that

[ab aeterno]

I think it would be quite interesting if we saw Ren training with Snoke in the next film, sort of a contrast/opposite to Luke training with Yoda in ESB. And if Luke is also training Rey in the next film, the contrast between the two trainings could work very well. Just idly speculating here of course.

[Pan out to show Kylo Ren running up the steps of the former Imperial Palace on Coruscant] "Gonna fly now!"

On the Plagueis thing from the last thread: The article I linked about the book (will spoiler tag this since its from the book)

Hidden Content

Plagueis' race, according to Lucas. Hmm...

[Arkash]

I think it would be quite interesting if we saw Ren training with Snoke in the next film, sort of a contrast/opposite to Luke training with Yoda in ESB. And if Luke is also training Rey in the next film, the contrast between the two trainings could work very well. Just idly speculating here of course.

On the Plagueis thing from the last thread: The article I linked about the book (will spoiler tag this since its from the book)

Hidden Content

Yeah, that was my initial reaction as well ! A parallel between Snoke / Kylo and Luke / Rey training in the next movie could be awesome ! If done well !

As for Plagueis, I really want to put credit into that theory, but I really fear it's just fan-dream and no-one in Disney (or in the writing team for the next movies) know who the heck is that guy the whole internet believes Snoke to be. 

[Magnar of Skagos]

Thing about Finn is, I think other actors with less energy might have made the lines sound cringey. Boyega seems like such a huge fanboy and brings all this excitement to the table - with that, the lines felt very natural. 

Also I hope I'm not alone in this but I thought BB-8 was friggin adorable. I know there are still 2 films to go, but I think hes a worthy successor to R2-D2. I loved his presence throughout the movie. Even during Rey's descent in Maz's bar, BB-8 was in the background carefully rolling down the stairs. And he was looking down at each step before committing! That was awesome. 

Thought I was the only one who paid any attention to that!

[Veltigar]

On the Plagueis thing from the last thread: The article I linked about the book (will spoiler tag this since its from the book)

Hidden Content

It seems like a really shitty route to take the story on, so that's why I think the Darth Plagueis thing is probably pretty credible. It's exactly the sort of stupid idea that would blow up in their faces, eventhough it looked shiny and chrome in the beginning. 

EDIT: I'd prefer it if someone was Ozzing it up behind the scenes. 

[Jaxom 1974]

Kind of inevitable on a forum where thousands of best swordsman threads have been born.

 

The Hound vs. Ren!  Who would win!???!! 

 

So, another theory that I have read recently as to the identity of Rey is that she is a Kenobi. In Clone Wars, It is revealed that he had feelings for the Mandalorian leader and he spent a year as a padawan protecting her. He even says that if she were to have said the word, he would have left the Jedi order.

 Now, add this to the fact that in Rey's force vision, JJ Abrams used the voices of both Alec Guiness and Ewen Mcgreggor and there is actually some meat on the bones of this idea.

 

Interesting.  Even though we know Clone Wars and Rebels are canon, I wonder at the willingness of JJ to actually use solid ideas from people other than himself or his cronies.

 

On to another point, I wanted to address the monster scene in Solo's freighter. On my first viewing, I thought that they looked cheesy, and it did kind of take me out of the story. On subsequent watches, I looked for relevance of the scene, and it really needed to happen. It is this scene. which contains fantastic acting and facial expressions between Rey and Finn, maybe some of the best in the entire film, It shows them becoming even more attached to one another and really gives credibility to why Finn would be willing to face his fears going to rescue Rey later in the movie.

 Also, the set itself was amazing. The whole place was a practical set. That would not have happened in the prequels.

 

I can get behind the essence of your thought here, but the CGI monsters were overkill. The scene didn't need them. The two rival gangs could have supplied a similar level of tension.  So I'm good with your analysis,  not JJs execution. 

 

Do you think Luke may have dropped Rey off and wiped her mind to avoid her capture by Kylo Ren?

Do we know what the age difference for Rey and Kylo Ren?  If they're only a year or three apart, then Rey had to have been hidden for reasons other than the Knights of Ren destroying Luke's school, right?