A Faceless Poster Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 So I find it weird that it is not really talked about how Roberts Rebllion and taking the throne is not really discussed in practical terms. Aerys made a rebellion not only justified but really the only option. He brutally killed the lord of the north, the heir to the north, and then demanded the lord of the Stormlands and current Lord of the North from Jon Arryn. So Jon Arryn was ordered to obey the mad man who made a mockery out of trial by combat and therefore the Seven, and take an action that would permanently enrage the North, Stormlands, and likely the Vale. Any action to avoid handing over Ned and Robert would be a form of rebellion but how can any person who values honor or even cares for his wards hand over the two? Jon Arryn had to choose open rebellion with the help of Robert and Ned if he wanted his house to survive and not abandon any of his principles. Unfortunately the rebellion couldnt just be to depose Aerys because that would mean crowning Rhaegar whose kidnapping of Lyanna sparked the conflict and would make any unified rebellion impossible. So Roberts weak claim over other Targayens had to be pressed because there were no other viable options, the rebellion needed to secure the throne and no Targaryen could promise a lasting peace. Roberts Rebellion was ultimately a war for survival because unless the rebels won absolutely House Stark, Baratheon, and Arryn would have been wiped out. All personal motivations aside the war that happened was not purely ideological but the best option available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 There's a reason only madmen, trolls, and very good and enlightened debators argue against RR. Even if Rhaegar had won at the trident, without capturing Ned, Jon and Robert all, there would still be a long war ahead. The Lannisters and Tyrells would carry full weight of responsibility in reigning in the isolated and unholdable North and defensible Vale, and I don't see Tywin shelling out without huuuuge recompense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Supposedly, if mad king Aerys were to die or was removed from the throne in favor of Rhaegar, a portion of the rebels could be mollified. But such an option comes down to diplomacy. Just to throw out a theoretical scenario....Robert dies at the Battle of the bells and/or Tywin come back to the royal fold. Like Jon Con heard from his mentor Toyne, there was a possibility that the Arryn's and Stark's could be given pardons for their part in the rebellion... but there is something that is not mentioned in the scenario. If Tywin were to be the one influencing these pardons, then effectively the Arryns and Starks are suddenly behind Tywin in politics (In this scenario the sack of KL doesn't occur so supposedly Ned wouldn't have cause for vitriol against the Lannisters). It essentially becomes a new faction in politics that could/would make demands against the Iron Throne; and who wants to be that they would demand a forceful abdication of Aerys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 So I find it weird that it is not really talked about how Roberts Rebllion and taking the throne is not really discussed in practical terms.You just summed up why its not talked about. Its pretty straitforward. So why do you find it weird again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadWo1f Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 It was justified rebellion by law and moral, there is nothing to argue about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Robert was a bad king without a doubt, but this is a huge improvement over an insane king who gets sexual gratification from burning people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Even if Aerys dies and Rhaegar got the throne the war would have continued. The war can only end with Targaryen defeat or the Death of Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn (Targaryen victory). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Robert was a bad king without a doubt, but this is a huge improvement over an insane king who gets sexual gratification from burning people.In comparison to many Targs his rule wasn't even that bad. Of course the spending was out of control, but the revenues were ten times higher than under his predecessor (both for the most part because of Littlefinger, presumably). Only one relatively minor war, otherwise peace, and at least he was popular and not considered weak by his lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtree Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Robert was a bad king without a doubt, but this is a huge improvement over an insane king who gets sexual gratification from burning people.Economic wise, Robert plunged the IT into 6 million debt,while Aerys's treasure was flowing with gold. Even if Rhaegar had won at the trident, without capturing Ned, Jon and Robert all, there would still be a long war ahead. The Lannisters and Tyrells would carry full weight of responsibility in reigning in the isolated and unholdable North and defensible Vale, and I don't see Tywin shelling out without huuuuge recompense. Exactly, which is why i think that his head is so far from the reality. He'd gotten himself a reputation as a rapist and kidnapper and he want to arrange a grand council to remove a crazy king. Tough pick, crazy king or rapist/kidnapper. Even if he won the war, that war would've given a deep dent in Westeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Economic wise, Robert plunged the IT into 6 million debt,while Aerys's treasure was flowing with gold. On the other hand, Aerys got successfully rid of the hand that was responsible for all that wealth because he was paranoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faceless Poster Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 You just summed up why its not talked about. Its pretty straitforward. So why do you find it weird again? Because it seems so many try to judge the story based on who is the rightful ruler or the best when political reality often make such judgments irrelevant. I think ASOIAF is an amazing demonstration of how monarchies guarantee violence and it seems to be one of the ultimate themes not really considered when discussing how the series will end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2FallenStags Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I don't think anyone who knows what they are talking about would argue that Robert's rebellion was impractical. If anything, the actions of Aerys and Rhaegar were the only impractical acts. Had Rhaegar not taken Lyanna as 2nd wife/mistress then it would have been easy to force Aerys to abdicate in favor of his heir. Rhaegar was a dreamer, and when he learned about the pact of ice and fire and the Pwwp he either willingly (or less likely due to his seemingly highly intelligent nature unwittingly) plunged the 7 kingdoms into war. The most likely path to a Targ victory would have been the daunting task of extinguishing houses Stark, Baratheon and Arryn. To me, this seems like an impossible task without dragons. The Targ cause in Roberts rebellion was doomed from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaibaman Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I'm not saying that Robert's Rebellion was wrong. However the overthrowing of an established dynasty which has ruled for three centuries, founded and shaped the kingdom has caused quite a destabilizing effect on the realm. Then there's the fact that Robert was a piss poor king and his heir turning out not only as cruel as his predecessor but also a bastard only exacerbated the problems already plaguing the realm. The way I see it the Baratheon dynasty was pretty much a powder keg waiting to go off but I doubt even guys like Varys and Littlefinger could have imaged things would have gone as bad as the War of the Five Kings and such.But now that the realm is in total disarray with most of the rebel houses either vanquished or on their last legs as well as the fact that the Targaryens now have a good chance of returning to power. I do wonder how history will remember Robert and his rebellion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Then there's the fact that Robert was a piss poor king and his heir turning out not only as cruel as his predecessor but also a bastard only exacerbated the problems already plaguing the realm.Complete nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 But now that the realm is in total disarray with most of the rebel houses either vanquished or on their last legs as well as the fact that the Targaryens now have a good chance of returning to power. I do wonder how history will remember Robert and his rebellion?Hopefully history will remember why RR broke out. But, maybe the Targaryen propaganda ministry will make sure the whole affair gets filed down the memory hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaibaman Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Hopefully history will remember why RR broke out. But, maybe the Targaryen propaganda ministry will make sure the whole affair gets filed down the memory hole.Well history is written by the winners and if the Targaryens win how would you expect them to let it be known? Besides even if the Targs stayed true to the facts. I'm sure they'll still remind people that nothing good came out of the entire affair and that removing them from power caused the people of Westeros great misery until they got themselves restored and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Well history is written by the winners and if the Targaryens win how would you expect them to let it be known?Yes. I know. Ignorance is strength. But, yeah, let's hope Westeros doesn't make one iota of progress.Besides even if the Targs stayed true to the facts. I'm sure they'll still remind people that nothing good came out of the entire affair and that removing them from power caused the people of Westeros great misery until they got themselves restored and such.Yeah, I could see Dany not permitting any actual debate or anything. She couldn't handle debating with Xaro. It would probably be embarrassing to have to argue with some knowledgeable Maester who might point out that civil wars broke out under the Targaryen watch. So I guess everyone will have to realize that "The Shavepate Is Watching You." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaibaman Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Yes. I know. Ignorance is strength. But, yeah, let's hope Westeros doesn't make one iota of progress.Yeah, I could see Dany not permitting any actual debate or anything. She couldn't handle debating with Xaro. It would probably be embarrassing to have to argue with some knowledgeable Maester who might point out that civil wars broke out under the Targaryen watch. So I guess everyone will have to realize that "The Shavepate Is Watching You."Well think of it this way, she has dragons. If the Maesters refuse to process her propaganda then the next thing they know their Citadel is burning down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Well think of it this way, she has dragons. If the Maesters refuse to process her propaganda then the next thing they know their Citadel is burning down. Yep. A regime built upon dragons and lies. Led by a bully, a liar, and a moron. Gee, why am I not getting too enthused here about the Khaleesi state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaibaman Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Yep. A regime built upon dragons and lies. Led by a bully, a liar, and a moron. Gee, why am I not getting too enthused here about the Khaleesi state.Stalin rule like that for 30 straight years and despite all the purges, censorship and oppression. The people of Russia consider him a national hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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