How rich is Illyrio?

[John Doe]

Relative to, let's say the Lannisters, Manderlys, Hightowers, Littlefinger or the Iron Bank? Just interested in some guesses.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Not as rich as the Iron Bank, but far richer than anyone in the Seven Kingdoms. Merchants tend to be far, far richer than feudal lords, although they lack their military might. Iron Bank is an institution, and a very powerful one it seems. But Illyrio is so rich that he can casually give gifts that are worth whole armies.

[Impbread]

Is Little Finger rich? off topic but jw

[John Doe]

Is Little Finger rich? off topic but jw

He bribes people often and presumably got rich on the crown's money, so yes.

[John Suburbs]

He's not the richest guy on the planet (Daxos' manse puts Illyrio's to shame), but he's the aSoIaF equivalent of a billionaire. He's also a magister, which means he is a billionaire senator in Pentos.

[The Dance of the Krackens]

The richest family in Westeros, the Lannisters, gained their wealth from resource extraction. Other Lords, from taxing an agrarian workforce with little incentive to grow production. By comparison, Illyrio and other Essosi merchants engage in "free" trade which allows for much more rapid economic growth (for reasons I won't get into here).

Just to underscore how much more valuable trade is in universe, some of the wealthiest lords in Westeros (Hightower, Manderly, Velaryon), have become rich merely from taxing the profits from merchants. If house Velaryon could grow richer than the Lannisters for a time based on skimming off the top of merchant trade, imagine how rich Illyrio can become by owning the means of production.

[The Dance of the Krackens]

Is Little Finger rich? off topic but jw

Littlefinger is rich for very different reasons than Illyrio. He seems to have a rudimentary idea of investing far ahead of his time. More recently, he has engaged in commodity speculation, i.e. buying grain for low prices and anticipating that the resource will increase in value at a future date. In a more advanced economy, grain owners would understand this trend and grain would take on a present value closer to the future value. However, in the basic Westerosi economy, the present value and future value are far apart, which allows Littlefinger to speculate.

[purple-eyes]

i am wondering what is economy of free cities? I mean, production and farming? 

Can not be all for trading. 

[The Dance of the Krackens]

i am wondering what is economy of free cities? I mean, production and farming? 

Can not be all for trading. 

I see it as a patchwork of regional production centers which ship their goods to the rest of Essos. We have Slavers Bay and the Dothraki dealing in slaves. The Llazarene produce food. Whaling and fishing by the Ibbanese and Bravosi. Spices out of the Saffron Straights. Timber out of Qhohor. The free cities are a little more advanced and are likely involved in bit of everything.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think you need to be pretty loaded to bribe a Triarch of Volantis into supporting an emancipation movement in the low key. I know it didn't work out eventually, but all the same. I agree that he's richer than most Westerosi lords, but less so than the Iron Bank.

[Guess who's back]

He was willing to give 3 dragon eggs to presumably lost cause that as far we know he didn't even care about. Considering you could buy a large sellsword army with those, I'd say Illyrio is pretty fucking rich. 

[Lord Varys]

Illyrio certainly is one of the richest individuals in the entire series. I guess the Qartheen elite is even much richer than he is - Xaro most certainly is, and the other trading guilds and especially the Pureborn most certainly are. And the rulers of all the slaver cities should be more wealthy, too.

But the size of Illyrio's manse is not necessarily a sign for or against his wealth. Illyrio is a pragmatic man. An insanely huge palace full of valuables would cause unwanted attention (especially from thieves and other criminal elements). But Qarth clearly must be one of the richest cities in the world due to the fact that they completely control the trade between the eastern and western world.

In general, merchant princes must be more wealthy than mere feudal lords, which is why the Lannisters are especially rich (gold + revenue and taxes from Lannisport), with the Hightowers closely behind.

[Kaibaman]

Well Littlefinger has made quite a fortune from brothels and other legitimate investments. But I suspect he's also being embezzling vast amounts of money from the Crown over the years and a large part of the Crown's debt was actually money from the treasury that he stowed away.

[Taenqyrhae]

Is usury a sin in any of the Westerosi faiths?   A large part of why medieval economies were the way they were was that the major faiths all thought paying or receiving interest on loans was a sin.  I don't recall any indications of that in the text but I miss a lot.

[Kaibaman]

Is usury a sin in any of the Westerosi faiths?   A large part of why medieval economies were the way they were was that the major faiths all thought paying or receiving interest on loans was a sin.  I don't recall any indications of that in the text but I miss a lot.

No I don't think the Faith sells indulgences but like any religious organizations I think they do take in tithes and donations. And given that they probably don't have to pay any taxes that would make them extremely wealthy.

[redtree]

The richest family in Westeros, the Lannisters, gained their wealth from resource extraction. Other Lords, from taxing an agrarian workforce with little incentive to grow production. By comparison, Illyrio and other Essosi merchants engage in "free" trade which allows for much more rapid economic growth (for reasons I won't get into here).

Just to underscore how much more valuable trade is in universe, some of the wealthiest lords in Westeros (Hightower, Manderly, Velaryon), have become rich merely from taxing the profits from merchants. If house Velaryon could grow richer than the Lannisters for a time based on skimming off the top of merchant trade, imagine how rich Illyrio can become by owning the means of production.

Yup this, i was surprised that house Velaryon could be richer than Lannister because of trading to Qarth. There's a big chance that Illyrio is richer than Tywin

[Blackfyre Bastard]

Is usury a sin in any of the Westerosi faiths?   A large part of why medieval economies were the way they were was that the major faiths all thought paying or receiving interest on loans was a sin.  I don't recall any indications of that in the text but I miss a lot.

IIRC, Cersei suggests the creation of a "Westeros National Bank" when being "harassed" by the representative of the Iron Bank.

[Lord of Westeros]

Littlefinger is rich for very different reasons than Illyrio. He seems to have a rudimentary idea of investing far ahead of his time. More recently, he has engaged in commodity speculation, i.e. buying grain for low prices and anticipating that the resource will increase in value at a future date. In a more advanced economy, grain owners would understand this trend and grain would take on a present value closer to the future value. However, in the basic Westerosi economy, the present value and future value are far apart, which allows Littlefinger to speculate.

Littlefinger is the Warren Buffett of ASOIAF.(In terms of investment strategy. Littlefinger is corrupt unlike Buffett) Both are masters of investing who seem to have a knack for generating outstanding long term returns.

[Lord of Westeros]

He is much richer than the Lannisters, Hightowers, Littlefinger for the simple reason: been in the investing business for a long time.

House Lannister is rich because of a rapidly depleting resource. The Lannisters have more than enough to be called rich, but the moment their gold supply crashes, they are doomed.

House Hightower is in better condition than the Lannisters but the Ironborn attacks are rapidly depleting their wealth.

Littlefinger plays the same strategy for Illyrio but is not as rich for the simple reason that Illyrio is older and has been investing much longer.

However the Iron Bank is much ricer than Illyrio because they have been around a long time and the interests they collect on loans are huge compared to investment returns.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

House Lannister is rich because of a rapidly depleting resource. The Lannisters have more than enough to be called rich, but the moment their gold supply crashes, they are doomed..

They collect taxes from the entire Westerlands, the richest realm in Westeros (with the 3rd or 4th highest population) and they rule the third largest city in Westeros. They are far from doomed.