Rogue One: A Star Wars Story

[red snow]

14 hours ago, Corvinus said:

No it will be Caleb Dume. 

No. it'll be Lor San Tekka

[Astromech]

8 minutes ago, red snow said:

No. it'll be Lor San Tekka

Now this theory I really like.

[Myrddin]

Vader should be like a Predator, only omitting the last 10 minutes of each movie.

[red snow]

21 hours ago, Astromech said:

Now this theory I really like.

The downside is it's a really poor end to the character.

 

1 hour ago, Myrddin said:

Vader should be like a Predator, only omitting the last 10 minutes of each movie.

People should  lose their shit at the mere thought of him being around.

[Rhom]

42 minutes ago, red snow said:

The downside is it's a really poor end to the character.

 

People should  lose their shit at the mere thought of him being around.

And yet, the crew of Rebels had no idea who this unknown Sith Lord was just a couple years BBY.

[Fez]

48 minutes ago, Rhom said:

And yet, the crew of Rebels had no idea who this unknown Sith Lord was just a couple years BBY.

Its a big galaxy. Hard to keep up with it all.

That's usually enough of a reason to explain away any characters who don't know things you'd think they probably should.

[Rhom]

2 minutes ago, Fez said:

Its a big galaxy. Hard to keep up with it all.

That's usually enough of a reason to explain away any characters who don't know things you'd think they probably should.

Yes, but Vader has been out there kicking ass and taking names for 15 years at this point as the Emperor's right hand...

Just seems odd that the last two remaining Jedi have been in hiding and didn't even know that Vader was out there hunting them.   

ETA:  Should clarify that I mean the last two other than Yoda and Obi Wan!  So, two of the last four!   

[Fez]

Just now, Rhom said:

Yes, but Vader has been out there kicking ass and taking names for 15 years at this point as the Emperor's right hand...

Just seems odd that the last two remaining Jedi have been in hiding and didn't even know that Vader was out there hunting them.   

Obi-Wan and Yoda sure seemed to know at least. I don't really know much Star Wars beyond the core movies and some of the KOTOR stuff. Has there ever been confirmation of just how many Jedi actually survived the rise of the Empire?

Maybe its just the Rebels ones that were particularly uninformed due to various reasons relating to the distance of space and having more pressing concerns.

[red snow]

6 minutes ago, Fez said:

Its a big galaxy. Hard to keep up with it all.

That's usually enough of a reason to explain away any characters who don't know things you'd think they probably should.

While it's odd they are surpised about Vader at this point (and there being more than one inquisitor) I guess it's not a surprise no one knows he's Vader as there's only Obi Wan who might know (I'm not sure why Obi Wan thought Anakin survived now? Maybe a force feeling?)

but irrespective of the galaxy being big you'd think from a PR point the empire would want people to know they have this badass sith lord who will come and destroy you if you don't behave. They should at least think he's a legend if not a real thing. But this seems to be a general issue with Star Wars particulalry the CGI shows.

8 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Yes, but Vader has been out there kicking ass and taking names for 15 years at this point as the Emperor's right hand...

Just seems odd that the last two remaining Jedi have been in hiding and didn't even know that Vader was out there hunting them.   

ETA:  Should clarify that I mean the last two other than Yoda and Obi Wan!  So, two of the last four!   

The last two of the last four with leeway for others we don't know about. Maybe the Jedi took on a cell like organization where one cell was unaware of all the other cells' existence?

[ab aeterno]

17 minutes ago, red snow said:

While it's odd they are surpised about Vader at this point (and there being more than one inquisitor) I guess it's not a surprise no one knows he's Vader as there's only Obi Wan who might know (I'm not sure why Obi Wan thought Anakin survived now? Maybe a force feeling?)

but irrespective of the galaxy being big you'd think from a PR point the empire would want people to know they have this badass sith lord who will come and destroy you if you don't behave. They should at least think he's a legend if not a real thing. But this seems to be a general issue with Star Wars particulalry the CGI shows.

 

What in particular makes you say this about he animations?

They can't rule only through force and fear at this point - that's even the point that they make in ANH - that despite the Empire's starfleet and military, how on earth can they maintain order without the senate? It's only after they've consolidated their power, abolished the senate, transferred control to the Moffs and destroyed Alderaan that Vader seems to take a higher profile and more active role in maintaining order.

The vast majority of the galaxy wouldn't see any difference between a Sith and a Jedi, so promoting the fact that he's maintaining order through a terrifying Jedi encased in a suit of black armour wouldn't really be the top priority, especially when his entire justification for seizing power was that the Jedi had tried to overthrow the Republic and kill him.

25 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Yes, but Vader has been out there kicking ass and taking names for 15 years at this point as the Emperor's right hand...

Just seems odd that the last two remaining Jedi have been in hiding and didn't even know that Vader was out there hunting them.   

ETA:  Should clarify that I mean the last two other than Yoda and Obi Wan!  So, two of the last four!   

17 minutes ago, red snow said:

The last two of the last four with leeway for others we don't know about. Maybe the Jedi took on a cell like organization where one cell was unaware of all the other cells' existence?

Well, in fairness, Kanan was a Padawan who fled the Purge and joined up with a pirate and Ahsoka left the Jedi Order before the end of the Clone Wars disillusioned with the way it had treated her, so I wouldn't expect either of them to be in the loop. Even in the movies, the only people who even see Vader are The Emperor, some clones, Obi-Wan, or dead. Why bring out your secret weapon unless it's absolutely necessary?

[red snow]

2 hours ago, ab aeterno said:

What in particular makes you say this about he animations?

 

Because they add to the problem by adding more Jedi into the mix? They didn't have to introduce Kanan and Ezra into the mix. Most people would assume several years before ANH that Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only Jedi remaining but now it seems there are more. Clone wars can be partly blamed for Ahsoka still being around too (and I don't care whether they have the official Jedi title if they can do the kind of stuff Kanan and Ahsoka can do they are Jedi-level force users).

I'd much rather have a more confusing backstory (or more accurately headscratching trilogy world) than not have these interesting characters running around though.

If most of the galaxy don't see the difference between a Sith and a Jedi then the Jedi are far worse than I imagined. If you mean there's no point in promoting Vader as Anakin - I agree (although he probably does work as a doubt inducing piece of knowledge for any surviving Jedi). But to keep Vader's existence quiet almost means he does nothing unless he is being rebranded as a black-ops character? I guess that could work - especially if the Emperor sees an advantage to the galaxy thinking the force no longer exists.

[ab aeterno]

Just now, red snow said:

Because they add to the problem by adding more Jedi into the mix? They didn't have to introduce Kanan and Ezra into the mix. Most people would assume several years before ANH that Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only Jedi remaining but now it seems there are more. Clone wars can be partly blamed for Ahsoka still being around too (and I don't care whether they have the official Jedi title if they can do the kind of stuff Kanan and Ahsoka can do they are Jedi-level force users).

I'd much rather have a more confusing backstory (or more accurately headscratching trilogy world) than not have these interesting characters running around though.

If most of the galaxy don't see the difference between a Sith and a Jedi then the Jedi are far worse than I imagined. If you mean there's no point in promoting Vader as Anakin - I agree (although he probably does work as a doubt inducing piece of knowledge for any surviving Jedi). But to keep Vader's existence quiet almost means he does nothing unless he is being rebranded as a black-ops character? I guess that could work - especially if the Emperor sees an advantage to the galaxy thinking the force no longer exists.

To the first point, while I've had my own issues with the idea that more jedi survived the Purge lessens the impact of them having been wiped out, I have been won around tot he idea that it's realistic that they weren't killed to the last one, but were broken, driven off, fled, etc. The ones who survived no longer had the will or the ability to fight, or were untrained. It's a large galaxy and hunting them all down takes time. There were dozens of surviving Jedi in the old EU, so we've at least got far fewer now.

As to not seeing the difference between Jedi and Sith, to most people of the galaxy these would just been doctrinal differences. Perhaps like Catholics vs Protestants or Shia vs Sunni Islam. They're two groups of people who appear to worship The Force. Even Tarkin refers to Obi Wan and Vader being part of the same "religion," and it's not likely that Tarkin would want to remind Vader of Anakin, if he even knows.

With 10,000 Jedi in a galaxy of practically countless worlds and peoples, 99.9% of people would never have seen a Jedi, let alone been able to compare a Jedi with a Sith on the basis of conduct. All they'd see is a warrior carrying a laser sword and wearing robes.

Bear in mind that the Jedi do their best to keep the existence of the Sith a secret from most people, as well, so it would probably mean little even to the Senate - hence why Palpatine doens't just turn up and say "Hey look, I'm a Sith, I saved you from these evil Jedi." He's just premised his rise to power on the idea of a Jedi uprising, so it would look pretty strage to have someone working for him too publicly who looks like a Jedi. - Even his senior military commanders, the Moffs, don't necessarily understand Vader's power, as evidenced on the Death Star and they know him personally.

I don't think it's so much that the Emperor sees value in Vader as being black ops, per se. I think it's just more that until he has fully consolidated his power, using Vader too openly wouldn't really benefit him too much. Once he centralises control, Vader is much more open about things. 

 

[Jon AS]

23 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

Even Tarkin refers to Obi Wan and Vader being part of the same "religion," and it's not likely that Tarkin would want to remind Vader of Anakin, if he even knows.

Well, Tarkin and Anakin did kind of bond over shared values in one Clone Wars storyline.

24 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

I don't think it's so much that the Emperor sees value in Vader as being black ops, per se. I think it's just more that until he has fully consolidated his power, using Vader too openly wouldn't really benefit him too much. Once he centralises control, Vader is much more open about things. 

Whether Vader was a more shadowy figure when he began his service to the Emperor (and whether anybody is aware of a connection between the guy in the black armour and the guy who marched into the Jedi Temple on Coruscant at the head of a battalion of clone troopers to slaughter everyone inside) isn't really relevant to Rebels, as he should have the reputation Leia refers to when she first meets him in ANH at that point. He's also rather openly commanding Imperial operations in the show and nobody seems to question his authority. How the rebels seem to have never heard of him is a bit of a plothole IMO.

[ab aeterno]

1 hour ago, Jon AS said:

Well, Tarkin and Anakin did kind of bond over shared values in one Clone Wars storyline.

Whether Vader was a more shadowy figure when he began his service to the Emperor (and whether anybody is aware of a connection between the guy in the black armour and the guy who marched into the Jedi Temple on Coruscant at the head of a battalion of clone troopers to slaughter everyone inside) isn't really relevant to Rebels, as he should have the reputation Leia refers to when she first meets him in ANH at that point. He's also rather openly commanding Imperial operations in the show and nobody seems to question his authority. How the rebels seem to have never heard of him is a bit of a plothole IMO.

I don't think we know enough at this point to say convincingly how well known Vader should be. Leia's opinion is somewhat misleading, because she's the daughter of a senator and later a senator herself, spending a lot of time on the Core Worlds and Coruscant. It may simply be that by this point Vader is only particularly well known in the Core. 

 

In Rebels the Inquisitor in S1 doesn't seem to expect people to know Vader either, at least no more than as a frightening force. ETA: He's known to the Imperials, but apparently not to those outside the military, as far as we're shown.

[red snow]

I guess Rogue One may settle some of this - although it's still going to be set after Rebels so shouldn't conflict with it too much. Vader could be all over the place and be that Galaxies version of a KArdashian - everyone knows and fears him.

There was some news regarding character names for the new film but they sounded more like placeholders in that everyone had codenames "colour + Seal" so it didn't seem so informative.

It's starting to sound pretty consistent that Alan Tudyk is playing a CGI character

sounds like he's a droid or possibly a cyborg

[Queen Alienor]

I'm definitively going to watch the movie, because I'm a huge Star Wars nerd, though I'm honestly really stomping down my expectations and hopes after the disappointment that was TFA for me.

But Rogue One got another director, and no OT characters they can screw up (which is honestly my biggest problem with TFA) so, given that the new trio was good in TFA, I think this movie could be quite good, too.

About the Rebels crew, I always found it a bit unbelievable that of 10,000 Jedi, only Obi-Wan and Yoda survive. Yes, there were Clone Troopers everywhere, but 2 out of 10,000? That's just strange. Either nobody survives, or a few more, would be my guess, so Kanan always made sense to me. And Ezra is born the day the Purge happened. If we go by what Clone Wars tells us, that Ahsoka was picked up as a toddler and not a baby, it makes perfect sense for him to exist. What doesn't make sense, IMO, is Yoda and Obi-Wan going on about how Luke and Leia are their only hopes, indicating that they are the only two force-sensitives (given that Leia isn't trained any more than random other force sensitive would be), because we are shown that force sensitives are born all over the galaxy, therefore they have, technically, the chance to train more and more if Luke and Leia fail.

Also, I think there's a new EU novel indicating that

Spoiler

Sabine Wren

is still alive after ROTJ, though I have not yet read it.

[Maia]

44 minutes ago, Queen Alienor said:

 What doesn't make sense, IMO, is Yoda and Obi-Wan going on about how Luke and Leia are their only hopes, indicating that they are the only two force-sensitives (given that Leia isn't trained any more than random other force sensitive would be), because we are shown that force sensitives are born all over the galaxy, therefore they have, technically, the chance to train more and more if Luke and Leia fail.

It does make sense, if Yoda, who has been shown as somebody able to forsee the future, even if imperfectly, could feel through the Force that only Vader's kids had a chance against him and the Emperor.  Obviously, Palpatine, who also had this ability, received similar visions. Neither of them got the particulars right, of course, but they knew the general shape of it. Yoda much earlier, since he had known about the kids from the beginning and likely meditated about their future a lot.

Though it was never logical that Yoda, despite being aware that he wasn't long for this world, never made any attempt to train Leia, just in case. I mean, apparently Obi Wan's Force Ghost couldn't train Luke, he needed a live teacher, at least for some fundamentals. So, how could Leia be any kind of "hope", with no training at all? I know, I know, making  her Luke's twin was a last-minute addition to the OT. It still doesn't quite work, though. Moving on.

Absence of other Force-sensitives would make zero sense, IMHO, because enough of them got born on a regular basis for  there to be 10K Jedi in the PT, though even at their height they didn't find everybody with potential - Palpatine, Maul and Anakin hadn't been found at the usual ages for Jedi induction, after all . Surely, 20 years after the Purge  there should have been hundreds of new Force-sensitives. And, for that matter, couldn't parents refuse to give up their kids to the Order during the Republic? In which case there should have been older, untrained sensitives running around too.

Oh, and BTW, how did the Jedi find sensitive infants? Was it just the usual Force Foresight?  

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Queen Alienor said:

1 hour ago, Queen Alienor said:

. And Ezra is born the day the Purge happened. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Sabine Wren

 

  Hide contents

 

If that's definitely the case regarding Ezra's birth, surely that has to be of importance? If we assume the Force is something that can't be created or destroyed - you'd think he just got an impressive share of the force?

[Queen Alienor]

1 hour ago, Maia said:

Absence of other Force-sensitives would make zero sense, IMHO, because enough of them got born on a regular basis for  there to be 10K Jedi in the PT, though even at their height they didn't find everybody with potential - Palpatine, Maul and Anakin hadn't been found at the usual ages for Jedi induction, after all . Surely, 20 years after the Purge  there should have been hundreds of new Force-sensitives. And, for that matter, couldn't parents refuse to give up their kids to the Order during the Republic? In which case there should have been older, untrained sensitives running around too.

Exactly my point. There should be hundreds, maybe even thousands of force sensitives running around, and the movies want me to believe that these two kids (well, they're 23 in ROTJ, but still), one of whom who has never been trained, are the only hope for destroying Palpatine and Vader? Like, sure, from a narrative standpoint having it be Vader's children is important, but logically, it would have made much more sense to just grab ten force sensitives and train them to take on Vader and Palpatine. Even if they aren't as strong in the Force as Luke and Leia, they'd have a much better chance if they come in bigger numbers, especially since Vader and Palps are warned that Luke is coming anyway.

1 hour ago, Maia said:

Though it was never logical that Yoda, despite being aware that he wasn't long for this world, never made any attempt to train Leia, just in case. I mean, apparently Obi Wan's Force Ghost couldn't train Luke, he needed a live teacher, at least for some fundamentals. So, how could Leia be any kind of "hope", with no training at all? I know, I know, making  her Luke's twin was a last-minute addition to the OT. It still doesn't quite work, though. Moving on.

Yeah, absolutely true.

1 hour ago, Maia said:

Oh, and BTW, how did the Jedi find sensitive infants? Was it just the usual Force Foresight?  

Well, the prequels did something with Midichlorians (I think?) that could somehow be tested? Which only makes so much sense, because if they are a thing you can scientifically find out, that would mean that the children should be found at birth, and Ahsoka was around two or three at least when Plo Koon brought her to the Order. And nobody ever found Anakin until he was nine, despite him apparently being the Chosen One. I don't think the movies were ever really clear on how this whole thing is supposed to work.

[Queen Alienor]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

If that's definitely the case regarding Ezra's birth, surely that has to be of importance? If we assume the Force is something that can't be created or destroyed - you'd think he just got an impressive share of the force?

Well, there is some speculation that on that day many children were born that are especially strong in the Force, to balance out the many killed Jedi, but honestly, I don't really see why it would be necessary. The Force itself wasn't destroyed that day, it was only the people who were using it that were killed.

And yeah, Ezra is definitively born on Empire day, aka the day of the Purge and Palpatine getting power, there's an ep in the first season where it's a plot point.