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Rogue One: A Star Wars Story


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5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The difference is of time and sex. He ignored Padme's opinion from the getgo, and probably because Anakin's a sexist asshat. 

Not sure Vader would put that much distinction on whether the person in question is male or female (I tend to think of Tatooine as vaguely matriachal, but that is not really backed up by canon I think, and he treats Ahsoka as, well, not his equal, but the difference in Standing between them are because she's his padawan, not because she's a woman), but possible. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

6 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

Yeah, my issues with the prequels are 95% with the execution, not the concept.

Preach. So many people say that it's the story that sucked, which I really don't agree with. The story had the potential to be absolutely amazing. It suffered from some really awkward writing, strange directing and some wooden acting, but the concept was great.

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14 hours ago, ab aeterno said:

The Clone Wars has the Jedi with a pretty extensive list, but it's unlikely to be all of them, I'd imagine. It seems a fair assumption that the Republic's infrastructure was used to identify potentially force sensitive kids either for testing or for records, but as far as I'm aware that's just speculation.

I kinda assumed that they used their clairvoyance to find the kids. Like, had group meditations concentrating on different planets,etc. And since it is not perfect, they would miss some - and/or some parents would refuse to surrender their kids.  Tatooine was outside the Republic, so they didn't even look there. Palpatine was a blooper, I guess?

This approach would also explain how the Sith could find apprentices _without_the access to Republic infrastructure that the Jedi enjoyed. Though I still don't see how the Rule of Two could have lead to anything other than diminishing returns, as the masters wouldn't necessarily be able to pick the best and brightest, or to expose them to healthy competition.Not to mention had very strong incentives to hold back their best knowledge and skills.

Concerning rumors - there is no indication that  force-sensitive infants could do anything obviously magical. In fact, even untrained, oblivious adults tend not to do so until told about the Force, etc. So, there wouldn't be any.

 

14 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I think the problem is that Vader wants someone else in his life. The Emperor was his only friend and factor in his life after being cast out from the Jedi. He's the only one who knows who he is and who he was, and what he's sacrificed to get there. Vader doesn't want power for its own sake; he wants power to defend his family and loves. That's his motivation.

 

Well... I don't wholly agree. Anakin _also_ wanted power because he was ambitious and power-hungry, otherwise he would have left the Jedi Order and married Padme openly. But yea, love for his family and desire to retain it at all costs was his main motivation. Those other desires kept him going after he lost Padme, I imagine. As well as the general fury at the universe that made him suffer so. And  finding out that he had a son  must have also made him hate the Emperor for lying to him about Padme's death and saddling him with terrible  guilt for murdering her and their unborn child. One  of the many things that rang false for me in RoTS was that he didn't check on her after the choking, nor expressed any worry for her safety after he and Obi Wan destroyed the lava dams. Even after becoming a monster he should have done that, IMHO.

 

13 hours ago, Queen Alienor said:

Preach. So many people say that it's the story that sucked, which I really don't agree with. The story had the potential to be absolutely amazing. It suffered from some really awkward writing, strange directing and some wooden acting, but the concept was great.

Eh, the story of  the PT was quite bad too,  IMHO. Really full of plot  holes, stupidities, illogical stuff, good old RL prejudices, etc. But the general ideas behind the story were very promising. Palpatine's careful manipulations bringing down the Jedi, the Republic, causing Anakin's fall - it all  could have been brilliant. Not to mention the tragedy of Anakin's transformation from a hero into a monster, the tragedy of all those close to him, seeing the downward slide, but unable to prevent it from happening, etc.

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Just now, Maia said:

I kinda assumed that they used their clairvoyance to find the kids. Like, had group meditations concentrating on different planets,etc. And since it is not perfect, they would miss some - and/or some parents would refuse to surrender their kids.  Tatooine was outside the Republic, so they didn't even look there. Palpatine was a blooper, I guess?

This approach would also explain how the Sith could find apprentices _without_the access to Republic infrastructure that the Jedi enjoyed. Though I still don't see how the Rule of Two could have lead to anything other than diminishing returns, as the masters wouldn't necessarily be able to pick the best and brightest, or to expose them to healthy competition.Not to mention had very strong incentives to hold back their best knowledge and skills.

I think the issue this runs into is scale. 

The main galaxy alone is supposed to be over 100,000 lightyears wide, - i.e. nine-hundred-thousand-trillion kilometers :lol: - and while I don't think they've put an exact number on the planets involved, (I believe "countless" is used a few times,) the numbers usually put forward were for millions of planets. That's not counting the Rishi Maze, the Unknown Regions or Wild Space. 

Compare that to ca. 10,000 Jedi at their peak. 

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4 minutes ago, Maia said:

Well... I don't wholly agree. Anakin _also_ wanted power because he was ambitious and power-hungry, otherwise he would have left the Jedi Order and married Padme openly.

Yeah, he also held some rather fascist views and felt the Jedi weren't being ruthless enough in their prosecution of the war long before he openly turned on them. He was clearly headed down a pretty dark path already, though losing his wife and becoming a cyborg monstrosity probably didn't encourage him to take a more positive outlook on life.

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5 minutes ago, Jon AS said:

Yeah, he also held some rather fascist views and felt the Jedi weren't being ruthless enough in their prosecution of the war long before he openly turned on them. He was clearly headed down a pretty dark path already, though losing his wife and becoming a cyborg monstrosity probably didn't encourage him to take a more positive outlook on life.

This is a good point. Before the war even started he was advocating dictatorship to make everyone agree on what was right. 

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1 minute ago, Maia said:

Eh, the story of  the OT was quite bad too,  IMHO. Really full of plot  holes, stupidities, illogical stuff, good old RL prejudices, etc. But the general ideas behind the story were very promising. Palpatine's careful manipulations bringing down the Jedi, the Republic, causing Anakin's fall - it all  could have been brilliant. Not to mention the tragedy of Anakin's transformation from a hero into a monster, the tragedy of all those close to him, seeing the downward slide, but unable to prevent it from happening, etc.

Yeah... the OT really suffered from all the retcons (mainly Vader being Luke's father, Leia being Luke's sister, which leads to some things that really don't work unless you apply lots of headcanon) and just some things that really don't work if you think about them. I love those movies, but some things are rather glaring.

And the PT... I like the ideas that went into the plot. Palpatines plots, the Jedi as morally grey, the Clone Wars in which the Jedi led a slave army against droids, all that could have been seriously awesome. I even liked the awkward Padme/Anakin romance, but I wish they had made it more obvious that they both essentially fall in love with a shadow, to quote LOTR. That could have worked out well on screen, and been a heartbreaking part of the story. Instead it just seemed as though they wanted us to believe they are this big starcrossed lovers which... was super unbelievable because they knew each other for like three weeks (including that time when they met as kids) when they got married.

Anakin being a slave is something that can explain so much, but gets completely dropped after the first movie. Padme having been a child queen and therefore not being allowed to grow up normally has the possibilites to explain much of her immature behavior in later movies, but it never gets mentioned again. The Jedi Order not being that clean morally is never really made a plot point. They could have done so much with the Prequels, and it's kinda sad they didn't.

3 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

This is a good point. Before the war even started he was advocating dictatorship to make everyone agree on what was right. 

True enough. He was never someone who believed in democracy to start with. He was not interested in power for himself, but he also really didn't believe in the Republic, which is why I believe that his relationship with Padme would have been super complicated even if ROTS didn't happen. It's part of how Palpatine was able to manipulate him so easily, because Anakin was always looking for this older guy to take charge.

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Um, sorry, I made a mistake in my previous post. I meant the story in the PT is egregiously bad, not the OT. OT story is OK. Also has it's weaknesses, because of retcons of Skywalker family relationships and other things, but holds together better. And for the time when it was made the prejudices weren't that bad.

The PT... frankly, I'd want Padme to be some other character for a start, she is so bad. The whole"elected child queen" is stupid, her not buying Shmi free in return for all the help is stunningly ungrateful and cruel,  she does nothing as a senator, so she might as well be somebody who has a reason to be around Anakin and fully participate in his plotlines. She should have been an integral part of the films, rather than a tacked-on love interest. 

I'd want to actually see Anakin as a good man, good friend and a hero before his fall, rather than the mess we got. With concerning flaws, yes, but also with obvious virtues. Otherwise, his fall is not a grand tragedy, but something entirely expected, that people around him should have seen a mile in advance. I'd want him introduced as a teenager/young man who is a great pilot (as Obi Wan said in the OT), not as a little kid. Speaking of the fall, the progression should have been convincing instead of: "What have I done?!!!" to "Let's go kill babyez, yay!" a minute later.

His slave background should have either been explored in more depth through one of the movie plotlines, or ditched. As it is depicted in TPM, it makes no sense at all. Shmi and Annie live in a pretty roomy house, with a workshop, she has no other obvious occupation than taking care of her son, she can easily stretch their dinner to accomodate  3 unexpected guests, Anakin has the leisure and resources to build a podracer in secret and enough  spare time to _also_ play with his little friends. And sure, some valuable slaves were given a lot of privileges iRL, but Annie is really young, he wouldn't have been that valuable for long. And Watto really doesn't look like somebody who'd want to or could afford to be this generous. Etc.

Ditch Qi Gonn Jinn, make Obi Wan a young Jedi knight, who decided to train Anakin on his own. Let's have less protagonists with more screentime to flesh out each. Obi-wan, Anakin and his wife should have been the protagonist trio of the PT.

Make Palpatine's plots actually make sense. Because in TPM, they really don't. Like, if any of his orders as Darth Sidius had been successfully  carried out, he would have been screwed because Amidala wouldn't have been there to spearhead the vote of non-confidence against the previous chancellor. Ditto in AoTC, if assassination attempt against her had been successful, the Jedi wouldn't have found the clones. Ditto Anakin's final seduction in RoTS, which is all backwards and shouldn't have worked.

Make him have one apprentice pre-Vader, instead of mish-mash of Maul, Dooku and Grievious, where all of  them ended up as non-characters.  And maybe hey! make her female, because we should have been over that "one woman per blockbuster movie" bullshit by the 2000ties and secondary female villains have a bit of tradition anyway.

To think that Lucas initially played with the idea of making Luke female(!)  and wanted to include female pilots in ANH (stopped by the studio), only to deliver the sexist tripe of the PT 2+ decades later, when he had all the power to do what he wanted and the attitudes have evolved.

Etc, etc. Anyway, to reiterate - PT had an awful story, but the general ideas behind the story were very promising. A great story could have been written about the fall of the Republic and Anakin's transformation into Vader, but PT wasn't it. That's apart from execution.

     

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Just now, Rhom said:

I feel like this is in order here... 

What If Episode 1 Were Good?

Nah, not good enough. IMHO, visiting Naboo twice was confusing and repetitive. They should have started already on the way to Coruscant. Qui Gonn is redundant, Obi Wan should have been the one on this mission and the one who made the decision to train Anakin. The latter's  background and age should have been adjusted, so that he could believably be a great pilot  at this point. Owen should have been either his real brother or a very good friend, because he clearly knew him very well in ANH and blamed old Ben for Anakin joining the Jedi and subsequent death.

Trade Federation dispute should have either been explained in a way that made sense or they  should have been straightforward pirates/raiders and the conflict in the Senate should have been about the republic not caring enough about Naboo to alocate resources to defend it in a timely manner. Etc.

But  most importantly, Padme should have never been queen of Naboo, elected or otherwise, because that immediately marginalized her as a character and made any future relationship with Anakin very contrived. By all means, make her a  young hereditary queen's double and bodyguard in TPM.

Then, in films 2 and 3 she could have been working for Republic Intelligence/Security, under Palpatine's patronage, uncovering stuff that he wanted uncovered for his political ploys - it would have been a believable evolution . It would have been natural for a politician from Naboo, an Outer Rim and formerly maginalized world, to bring along and promote people from his own planet, and it would have been plausible for Agent Padme to go on missions together with Anakin, which would have allowed their romance to bloom in a natural manner. And also would have allowed her to interact with Senate intrigues, etc., if required. 

Start her as a huge partisan of Palpatine, but a good enough investigator, that eventually in film 3 she'd start noticing that things don't add up. Have her and Anakin on reverse arcs re: Supreme Chancellor. As she becomes ever more suspicious, Anakin grows ever more desillusioned with the ineptitude of democratic government, which seems totally unable to win the war and enamored of the idea of dictatorship by a strong, wise leader. Etc.

Oh, and the Clone Wars should have been in full swing in episode 2, which would have allowed Anakin to be the hero that he was supposed to be and showcase his friendship with Obi Wan, before it all starts to fall apart in episode 3. If the notions of Anakin's slave background and clone soldiers are retained, we really should have had some exploration of societal standing of the clones and whether they are, in effect, slaves. And if so, whose property they are. And Anakin's feelings about it. Etc.

 

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10 minutes ago, Maia said:

Oh, and the Clone Wars should have been in full swing in episode 2, which would have allowed Anakin to be the hero that he was supposed to be and showcase his friendship with Obi Wan, before it all starts to fall apart in episode 3.

I think the conflict in the first film should have been the first Clone War. Make them a real series of conflicts, if for no other reason that naming a single war with a plural just annoys me.

Bail Organa also should have had a bigger role throughout the movies as a friend and ally of Padme's. By the end of the third film, Anakin should not have known that Padme was pregnant, instead making it plausible for her to pass Leia off as Bail's child. And of course Padme should not have died because she lost the will to live...

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7 minutes ago, Jon AS said:

I think the conflict in the first film should have been the first Clone War. Make them a real series of conflicts, if for no other reason that naming a single war with a plural just annoys me.

Bail Organa also should have had a bigger role throughout the movies as a friend and ally of Padme's. By the end of the third film, Anakin should not have known that Padme was pregnant, instead making it plausible for her to pass Leia off as Bail's child. And of course Padme should not have died because she lost the will to live...

The worst part of this is that Vader's character would have been improved had he actually killed her (or mortally wounded her so they were only able to save the kids.) Vader believing there was no way back for him would be even more emphatic if he'd killed the woman he loved. 

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15 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

The worst part of this is that Vader's character would have been improved had he actually killed her (or mortally wounded her so they were only able to save the kids.) Vader believing there was no way back for him would be even more emphatic if he'd killed the woman he loved. 

But as far as Vader knows he did kill her.  The Emperor basically tells him that he had killed her leading to his "NOOOOOooo" moment.  Up until he finds out Luke is his son, he believes he did kill her and her unborn child.

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5 minutes ago, Leofric said:

But as far as Vader knows he did kill her.  The Emperor basically tells him that he had killed her leading to his "NOOOOOooo" moment.  Up until he finds out Luke is his son, he believes he did kill her and her unborn child.

 

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Right - in the novelization the emperor basically says that he killed her. He finds out later that this was a lie - which was another motivation to betray the emperor.

Oh, I know, but it would have been better if he actually had done. It would have added more weight to the situation. Since we know that he actually didn't kill her, and that she committed suicide, it has less meaning that if we knew he had fallen so far that he'd actually killed her, IMO.

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Just now, ab aeterno said:

It would have added more weight to the situation. Since we know that he actually didn't kill her, and that she committed suicide, it has less meaning that if we knew he had fallen so far that he'd actually killed her, IMO.

I disagree. For RoTJ to work, there has to still be "good" in Vader. His love for his family had to be strong and true enough for Luke to be able to flip him, after all this time, after the oceans of blood. I don't see how that could have been the case if he actually _did_ murder Padme. He was fully guilty of so many heinious crimes, it works much better for me if this was one thing that he was actually innocent of. They could have just faked her death and done something to hide her from Anakin's force senses. If Yoda and Obi Wan could hide from him, why not her? Particularly since the relationship would have already been unravelling on her part anyway.

 

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13 minutes ago, Maia said:

I disagree. For RoTJ to work, there has to still be "good" in Vader. His love for his family had to be strong and true enough for Luke to be able to flip him, after all this time, after the oceans of blood. I don't see how that could have been the case if he actually _did_ murder Padme. He was fully guilty of so many heinious crimes, it works much better for me if this was one thing that he was actually innocent of. They could have just faked her death and done something to hide her from Anakin's force senses. If Yoda and Obi Wan could hide from him, why not her? Particularly since the relationship would have already been unravelling on her part anyway.

 

Just because he killed his wife wouldn't make him irredeemably evil, nor would it mean that he didn't love his family. Just that his anger and passion overtook him and led him down a dark path. It would make his redemption more compelling, not less. I think they had her die of a broken heart because they thought otherwise it would make Anakin too unlikeable if he'd killer her, but I think it would have made his entire character arc that much more impactful.

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17 hours ago, Maia said:

Make Palpatine's plots actually make sense. Because in TPM, they really don't. Like, if any of his orders as Darth Sidius had been successfully  carried out, he would have been screwed because Amidala wouldn't have been there to spearhead the vote of non-confidence against the previous chancellor. Ditto in AoTC, if assassination attempt against her had been successful, the Jedi wouldn't have found the clones. 

     

You know that's the point right?  Palpatine is purposely making the "bad guys" fail to set him up to take over the "good guys".  That's literally the entire point of the Phantom Menace and is even in the title.

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