You're GRRM's editor. He gives you his manuscript of A Feast for Crows. There's a red pen in your hand.

[Lautrec]

Great comparison, especially considering Rubber soul (I'm guessing other albums too) was produced by a chap called George Martin! Do you think you'd felt differently if you'd had to wait 5 years between Sgt. Pepper and the white album though?  I think that's where the real sting is.
Revolver is my favorite. 



 
 

 

Well, considering I was born like 25 years after they broke up I'll never know what waiting would have been like, but I doubt it would have been a problem since the gap between Sgt. Pepper and the White Album was less than a year and a half (and you get Magical Mystery Tour in-between, which is Dunk & Egg in this analogy :P). Now, waiting 3 years for each Arcade Fire album on the other hand...

Waiting a lot is certainly problematic, but when the gap gets this long, I don't think most people are really bothered that much because after a while you just become comfortably numb. 

Looking at it now, I'd say the main problem with the whole series is that Martin got bored with the story, and to keep himself interested he took a step to the side rather forward. So he added a bunch of new plots and characters because to him this was fresh material, but to us it was boring digression. I can't blame him really, but it is disappointing. 
 

[ChillyPolly]

I would cut up AFFC and ADWD and make a new two volume book called A Feast for Dragons that includes all the POV's and broken down into chronological order.

"A Feast for Dragons".  Wouldn't that suck for all the poor little shepherd girls?

[Chebyshov]

I'd put a giant checkmark on the cover page.

I might have asked, "are you sure you want to make Arys a PoV?" And if he said yes, I'd say, "okay." Otherwise, gtg.

[JC Denton]

Brienne: Either serious abridge or completely omit Brienne's POV.   The problem is that we, the readers, already know she is doomed to fail her quest. Yes there is the really remote possibility she gets to the Eyrie (I think she mentions that might be a logical place to look), but is anyone believing that is she is going to somehow outwit Baelish and get Sansa?   

Cersei: Ditch the Maggy the Frog prophecies (one too many prophecies) and the whole shiving her childhood friend nonsense.  One of the great things about the series was the depth of the characters. at least the ones that had PoVs at least.  Cersei was a huge disappointment to that end.   If Martin is going to insist on making her Joffrey v2, don't give her a PoV.

 

[Fat Mac]

The only PoV I'd cut is Arys. We didn't really need one from him.

The rest are all likely to have future importance. Yes, even Hotah. I think some PoV's could be chopped down a bit, mainly Sam and Brienne.

Besides that, nothing.

[bent branch]

bam, this is the sad truth right here.

i feel very sorry for GRRMs editors.  There is zero incentive for them to do a halfway decent editing job, and plenty of incentive for them to rush it out the door.

on the other hand, I do know people who have sworn off the series because of how bad these books are.  Overall those will just end up being a tiny blip in overall sales, if noticeable at all.

This is actually the response I would expect if someone really didn't like the books in the middle of the series. I have been in the middle of a series and felt the author was just wandering around lost. I have always stopped reading the series and have never picked up one of them again. It is the people who hate AFFC and/or ADWD and continue to engage with the books that I don't understand. Why are they torturing themselves?

New topic:

As far as AFFC, I really enjoyed it. I strongly disagree with the criticism that the book is bloated. When people complain about Brienne going around looking for Sansa and being frustrated because they know Brienne is looking in the wrong places, they are reading the story shallowly. In the Brienne chapters there is lots of information about what is going on in Westeros that will have an impact on the future story. One example that we have already seen come to fruition is when she met the circuit septon who became the latest High Septon.

GRRM doesn't like having events in the books that haven't been foreshadowed. In the case of the High Sparrow, he wanted to show the impetus behind the small folk forcing the High Sparrow into the mix. He said he needed to write AFFC/ADWD in order to get the story where it needed to be. Instead of the readers asking themselves what it was that GRRM felt needed to be said in these books, the people who dislike the books claim GRRM didn't need to say most of the things he said. Fine, but I notice that there are numerous theories put forward where the person has basically ignored AFFC/ADWD and expect the theory to be correct. Their disappointment in the series will almost certainly continue to grow.

As far as GRRM's writing style, I recently read Tuf Voyaging, the first of GRRM's works outside of the ASOIAF universe that I have read. I realized that GRRM has a very distinctive voice as an author and some characteristics of the novels that I had assumed had been used simply for these novels are just part of GRRM's writing style. He even used "for the nonce" twice in a SF story. I really don't think his writing style is going to change anytime soon.

[RoamingRonin]

I'd ask him why does he require each chapter to be over 10 pages? There are times when he has only 5 pages worth of material but he is intent on having the chapter last 10+ pages. This is why we are told over and over how many sons were born from the loins (ugh) of Quellon Greyjoy. He's repeating himself to fill pages.

It's clear that with each chapter he has a specific conclusion in mind. But it's never enough for him to have something happen or reveal crucial plot information. No. He must always take careful mincing steps, saying in 10 pages what a better writer could do in 5 to set up these grand revelations. Why couldn't Littlefinger just tell Sansa Harry the Heir was Robert's heir and explain it all in a sentence or two? Why did the Princess in the Tower have to be so long when all we got was the promise of fire and blood? Not any actual fire and blood, mind. Just a promise. 

Of course I'd take an axe to Brienne's chapters because we've already seen the horrors of war through Arya's eyes. It's clear he wanted to tie up the Bloody Mummers subplot and choose Brienne to do it. But, as I said before, he can't just have Brienne encounter them within a chapter or two and end it there. Such a conflict needs pages upon pages of set up so the pay off feels "earned". 

[Ser Eric]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the Feast. It's a fantastic book. Maybe culling a couple of Brienne chapters...but I loved the more philosophical side to the book. It was great.

Parts of the First two books and especially the Dany/Tyrion bits in DwD could have done with with a bit of editing. Actually way too many Arya and Sansa chapters come to think of it in the first three books given their lack of plot involvement in general.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Brienne is not only trying to find Sansa. She's trying to find her own identity. You might not like this, but why is this wrong?  Brienne is also an important character.

If we consider that Brienne represents the question of what it means to be a woman in a sexist world while she takes the role of a man, then her narrative and plot is very interesting, specially when we contrasts it against Cersei's who simply hates being a woman and hates the system. Brienne doesn't hate the system, nor she hates who she is. Brienne is another victim of her world, yet, she bears no negative feelings in her heart.

Feast has a lot of chapters in which women not only wonder what is to be a woman, but they actually try to take roles that shouldn't be hers with diverse results:

• Asha wants to be Queen. While she's respected, she's quickly overshadowed by a more impressive but less efficient man only because she's a woman.
• Arianne fears her position as a woman would take from her her rights to rule, hence, her need to actually act in a foolish plot.
• Cersei wants a power that she feels she deserves but she doesn't, and while very few people actually belittle her for being a woman, the main person who does that is herself.
• Arya is offered the choice of having a more normal "feminine" life, as being a Faceless Man is not a "feminine" role. She refuses so and carries on.

Couldn't be just that Martin wants to take a moment to actually tell the women's stories this time? Like, how war also affects them?

 

 

[Cas Stark]

Brienne is not only trying to find Sansa. She's trying to find her own identity. You might not like this, but why is this wrong?  Brienne is also an important character.

If we consider that Brienne represents the question of what it means to be a woman in a sexist world while she takes the role of a man, then her narrative and plot is very interesting, specially when we contrasts it against Cersei's who simply hates being a woman and hates the system. Brienne doesn't hate the system, nor she hates who she is. Brienne is another victim of her world, yet, she bears no negative feelings in her heart.

Feast has a lot of chapters in which women not only wonder what is to be a woman, but they actually try to take roles that shouldn't be hers with diverse results:

• Asha wants to be Queen. While she's respected, she's quickly overshadowed by a more impressive but less efficient man only because she's a woman.
• Arianne fears her position as a woman would take from her her rights to rule, hence, her need to actually act in a foolish plot.
• Cersei wants a power that she feels she deserves but she doesn't, and while very few people actually belittle her for being a woman, the main person who does that is herself.
• Arya is offered the choice of having a more normal "feminine" life, as being a Faceless Man is not a "feminine" role. She refuses so and carries on.

Couldn't be just that Martin wants to take a moment to actually tell the women's stories this time? Like, how war also affects them?

 

 

I don't think this was his purpose, just as I don't think the purpose of Brienne's chapters was to show us how war affects the small folk since we already saw that in all of Arya's chapters...but even IF this is true, how is this an excuse for a novel that has no beginning and no end, that simply meanders around, with no balance in the POVs, no order to the story, no story, and then it just ends.  The only story arc that exists in the book is Cersei.

I truly cannot comprehend people who say this is their favorite book or who maintain it's as good as the previous 3.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I don't think this was his purpose, just as I don't think the purpose of Brienne's chapters was to show us how war affects the small folk since we already saw that in all of Arya's chapters...but even IF this is true, how is this an excuse for a novel that has no beginning and no end, that simply meanders around, with no balance in the POVs, no order to the story, no story, and then it just ends.  The only story arc that exists in the book is Cersei.

I truly cannot comprehend people who say this is their favorite book or who maintain it's as good as the previous 3.

This. Why does telling "the women's stories" (not that I think GRRM set out to do that in particular, and it's not like he didn't tell women's stories in the first three books) have to imply a halt in plot progression? GRRM forgot how to balance character development, world-building and plot progression.

[Guest]

I would tell GRRM to write faster, and worry less.

[Cas Stark]

This. Why does telling "the women's stories" (not that I think GRRM set out to do that in particular, and it's not like he didn't tell women's stories in the first three books) have to imply a halt in plot progression? GRRM forgot how to balance character development, world-building and plot progression.

Sadly, it looks like he did.  Because after Feast we got Dance.  I preferred Dance to Feast because at least there were some resolutions, and more characters I cared about, even despite the insane level of bloat.  And I am one person who hasn't been that impressed with most of the Winds sample chapters either....they are a lot of the same meandering around getting nowhere, with only one or two exceptions which could have been written years earlier.

The man who wrote Game of Thrones lives only in our memory. He is not the same writer today as he was then.  By a long shot.  And apparently there is no going back.  Whatever 'broke' after Storm of Swords is still broken.

I still fault his editors in a major way, letting him put out the last two books the way they were is them doing a disservice to him.  There should have been screaming matches and threats to resign and all hell breaking loose to get him to realize the errors he was making. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

Sadly, it looks like he did.  Because after Feast we got Dance.  I preferred Dance to Feast because at least there were some resolutions, and more characters I cared about, even despite the insane level of bloat.  And I am one person who hasn't been that impressed with most of the Winds sample chapters either....they are a lot of the same meandering around getting nowhere, with only one or two exceptions which could have been written years earlier.

The man who wrote Game of Thrones lives only in our memory. He is not the same writer today as he was then.  By a long shot.  And apparently there is no going back.  Whatever 'broke' after Storm of Swords is still broken.

I still fault his editors in a major way, letting him put out the last two books the way they were is them doing a disservice to him.  There should have been screaming matches and threats to resign and all hell breaking loose to get him to realize the errors he was making. 

Yeah, most of the Winds chapters he's released are just more of this "all set up-no pay off" formula, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence. 

[TaenaOfMyr]

-Cut the entire Dorne storyline
-Cut the entire Iron Island storyline
-Greatly reduce the Brienne storyline. Cut it at least by half, if not more, reducing her role down to 3-4 chapters tops
-Nothing of consequence happens in Sansa's chapters. But with the removal of numerous other chapters that ideally gives more time to develop hers. If the plot doesn't go any further with her based on the timeline with the other characters, consider removing entirely.
-Samwell's storyline gets at least slightly reduced, by a chapter or two.
-Cersei, Arya and Jaime's storylines I would generally keep intact, with potentially some minor editing if needed so as to accomplish melding ADWD into the book
-Remove "pink fat mast" and "myrish swamp"

With the saved space, ADWD storylines then get added back. GRRM's biggest ever mistake, splitting the books up, doesn't happen. This is accomplished as follows:
-Cut the Quentyn and Young Griff storylines entire
-Reduce Dany's chapters by at least a third, if not more
-Reduce Jon's chapters (such as by checking the number of supplies, the chapter that is just a repeat of a Samwell one)
-Again cut all Dorne and Iron Island related storylines
-If further cuts are needed, trim bits of material from various chapters as needed to reduce overall page count.

Yeah, it'd be a big book, and it would have taken GRRM at least another year or two to get out from AFFC's release, but both the overall storyline and the current dilemma of the show beating him (not to mention a weakened season 5 based on weakened or unfilmable book content) also gets addressed.

[Cas Stark]

-Cut the entire Dorne storyline
-Cut the entire Iron Island storyline
-Greatly reduce the Brienne storyline. Cut it at least by half, if not more, reducing her role down to 3-4 chapters tops
-Nothing of consequence happens in Sansa's chapters. But with the removal of numerous other chapters that ideally gives more time to develop hers. If the plot doesn't go any further with her based on the timeline with the other characters, consider removing entirely.
-Samwell's storyline gets at least slightly reduced, by a chapter or two.
-Cersei, Arya and Jaime's storylines I would generally keep intact, with potentially some minor editing if needed so as to accomplish melding ADWD into the book
-Remove "pink fat mast" and "myrish swamp"

With the saved space, ADWD storylines then get added back. GRRM's biggest ever mistake, splitting the books up, doesn't happen. This is accomplished as follows:
-Cut the Quentyn and Young Griff storylines entire
-Reduce Dany's chapters by at least a third, if not more
-Reduce Jon's chapters (such as by checking the number of supplies, the chapter that is just a repeat of a Samwell one)
-Again cut all Dorne and Iron Island related storylines
-If further cuts are needed, trim bits of material from various chapters as needed to reduce overall page count.

Yeah, it'd be a big book, and it would have taken GRRM at least another year or two to get out from AFFC's release, but both the overall storyline and the current dilemma of the show beating him (not to mention a weakened season 5 based on weakened or unfilmable book content) also gets addressed.

This is close to what I would do.

I'm not 100% sure on cutting Dorne, it depends on if he does anything with it.  I woiuld definitely only have one Dorne POV.  Me personally I don't like the Dorne story but without knowing what he does with it, it's hard to say it needs to go completely.

I wouldn't necessarily cut everything that happens in the Iron Islands either, but we can do it all from Asha's POV.

Yes, I would cut Brienne's chapters by half or 2/3.

I would cut Sam's chapters down or out, presumably something of note will  happen to him in Oldtown so probably cut down not out.

I would cut Quentyn POV.  Not sure on cutting Aegon storyline out, it depends what he does with it.  It appears based on the show that he will be another dead end, in which case, yes, he can be cut.

Trim Dance Dany, Tyrion and Jon chapters by at LEAST 1/3 if not more.

I believe this and a few other edits would have easily allowed Feast and Dance to be one book and to resolve either the Meereen battle or the Winterfell battle.

 

**But then I also would not have abandoned the original 5 year gap idea, everything works much better that way.

[TaenaOfMyr]

Much of Dorne's storyline in the books doesn't go anywhere. Quentyn's storyline is a waste. Much of the AFFC is dragged out. And in my scenario, Aegon is cut, so there is no need to have Arianne around, no need to have Dorne aligning with him, etc...

While I would keep the role of the Iron Islanders in the overall plot, I would have no POV chapters for them. In my scenario we are keeping the main focus on the major characters. GRRM's big mistake was stretching things out to way too many minor characters. My edits resolve that. It also has the benefit of ideally getting him to write the overall saga quicker, since he isn't spending a lot of time writing content for characters who are minor, and while may have an impact somewhat on the storyline, do not warrant POV chapters.

I didn't think of it initially, but I have no issue if they cut the Battle of Mereen as well, which is what they appear to be doing in the show. I appreciate GRRM going against conventions and tropes with the Dany in Mereen storyline. But let's all admit something here; we care mostly what Dany does with respect to Westeros, not Essos. If GRRM is writing a new novel ever 2-3 years, so be it, but when its 5+, its far more important for him to focus on the key plotlines than Mereen.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I'd say ' look George, these are all nice little stories you are telling here, I'm sure there is room for them in a companion piece, maybe a few short story collectors edition. Like 'what happened to brienne before lady stone heart got her. People would pay to read that. But not in this book G. Let's combine those two books and cut to the chase'

theres loads of good stuff in those books, taken individually. Loved kingsmoot for example. But as part of a series? No. It's filler and it's breaking up the momentum and annoying me.

[Fat Mac]

Sadly, it looks like he did.  Because after Feast we got Dance.  I preferred Dance to Feast because at least there were some resolutions, and more characters I cared about, even despite the insane level of bloat.  And I am one person who hasn't been that impressed with most of the Winds sample chapters either....they are a lot of the same meandering around getting nowhere, with only one or two exceptions which could have been written years earlier.

The man who wrote Game of Thrones lives only in our memory. He is not the same writer today as he was then.  By a long shot.  And apparently there is no going back.  Whatever 'broke' after Storm of Swords is still broken.

I still fault his editors in a major way, letting him put out the last two books the way they were is them doing a disservice to him.  There should have been screaming matches and threats to resign and all hell breaking loose to get him to realize the errors he was making. 

 

If I had to guess, all of the Winds chapters are from the first 100, maybe 150 pages. Not a fair criticism to say he "broke" somehow and is still "broken." Given the books likely length (1000+ pages), I'm not concerned at all. There's two major battles right off the bat, that should ramp up the pace a bit.

[Cas Stark]

You don't want to get me started on my ranting about the Meereen story.  I totally do not care about the battle of Meereen other than the intellectual curiosity of how he's going to write himself out of the trap he created, either Dany leaves Meereen a smoking ruin, which further degrades her character, or there will have to be some bizarre deux et machina event that allows her to leave Meereen in good shape, which at this point is going to be hard to buy.

I kind of liked the idea of Aegon, even though his introduction was very clumsy, but if he's going to be jQuentyn II, then I would prefer we never got any Dorne or Aegon at all.

Yes I agree he lost himself in these 'new' characters and their secondary storylines and seems to be still lost there in the weeds.