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Did anybody else like Tywin Lannister?


Thuckey

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Tywin went a little too far with the Reynes and the Tarbecks.  There was no need to kill the innocent.  But, I am in agreement with the way he handled that pesky Robb Stark and his idiot bannermen.  Letting Robb live meant prolonged war and more damage to the realm.  The red wedding was brutal, but it was good for the realm.  Bad for the Starks, but good for the realm.  What is good for the Starks is not necessarily what is good for the realm. 

Maybe not. If Tytos was not so weak, they wouldnt even rebel, but lets assume that it comes to rebellion and Lannister name means something. In that case it wouldnt be necessary to show off who is boss by being brutal, victory on battlefield is enough, example is Greyjoy rebellion: realm was strong and united and there was no need for butchering entire family, only punishment was sending Theon to best father in Westeros, imagine if Theon was fostered at Casterly Rock or Seaguard. But Lannisters were weak in eyes of everyone and Tywin was full of rage because of that and he needed to show the world that they are not for messing around anymore, if he wasnt brutal things would not be much different. Plus we have an AWESOME song! The only problem is that Tywin stayed brutal, after Castamere he could be merciful and people would fear him.

Even Starks killed off Greystarks amd imagine what they will do to Boltons if they reclaim Winterfell.

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What do you think is good for smallfolk of the North? First night? Flaying?

It was the Targaryens who outlawed First Night, a practice that had taken place for thousands of years under the Starks. A practice that still took place under Stark rule.

Not sure how Boltons flaying Starks is a bad thing for the Smallfolk? Infact who have the Boltons flayed since they have came to power? Ironborn enemies who were invading the lands.

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Agreed. 

1. He doesn't, at least in the Riverlands, or else the smallfolk in that region would clearly say so. What they say instead points to the contrary.

2. "Paying back in kind" suggests paying or returning something of the same kind as received. If the Riverlands got ravaged, what does that say about the Westerlands?

3. It only shows the Lannisters aren't known for their kindness.

4. This was indeed merciful, but probably not the norm amongst the nobility.

 

1. “They rode down my ‘prentice boy,” said a squat man with a smith’s muscles and a bandage around his head. He had put on his finest clothes to come to court, but his breeches were patched, his cloak travel-stained and dusty. “Chased him back and forth across the fields on their horses, poking at him with their lances like it was a game, them laughing and the boy stumbling and screaming till the big one pierced him clean through.”
The girl on her knees craned her head up at Ned, high above her on the throne. “They killed my mother too, Your Grace. And they... they...” Her voice trailed off, as if she had forgotten what she was about to say. She began to sob.
Ser Raymun Darry took up the tale. “At Wendish Town, the people sought shelter in their holdfast, but the walls were timbered. The raiders piled straw against the wood and burnt them all alive. When the Wendish folk opened their gates to flee the fire, they shot them down with arrows as they came running out, even women with suckling babes.”

“Aye,” said the Mad Huntsman, “and a kinder fate than you deserve for all your kind have done. Lions, you call yourselves. At Sherrer and the Mummer’s Ford, girls of six and seven years were raped, and babes still on the breast were cut in two while their mothers watched. No lion ever killed so cruel.”

2. It doesn't say that Robb or Blackfish employed psychopaths to specifically commit the same level of atrocities we see above.

3. It shows, according to a source that has never suffered any ill from the Lannister, that anyone is kinder than them. 

4. Neither gang-raping 13 years old girls or hanging old women from trees because they had their pride hurt seem to be the norm. Or rewarding monsters like Ramsay Snow (“Was ever snow so black?” asked Lord Wyman. “Ramsay took Lord Hornwood’s lands by forcibly wedding his widow, then locked her in a tower and forgot her. It is said she ate her own fingers in her extremity … and the Lannister notion of king’s justice is to reward her killer with Ned Stark’s little girl".) and enabling beasts like Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat. Or erasing two houses from existence. In fact those instances seem incredibly over the top.

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It was the Targaryens who outlawed First Night, a practice that had taken place for thousands of years under the Starks. A practice that still took place under Stark rule.

Not sure how Boltons flaying Starks is a bad thing for the Smallfolk? Infact who have the Boltons flayed since they have came to power? Ironborn enemies who were invading the lands.

So legitimizing Ramsay Snow is better for the smallfolk in the North? Roose and Ramsay in charge is no different than Robb or sir Rodrick? Because that is what the commoners got after the Red Wedding.

Ramsay flayed Kyra and the rest of the girls when he still had no real name. Some of them were flayed alive. Imagine what he will do as the second most powerful person in the North, as Lord of Winterfell and Hornwood and the heir of Roose.

“When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast.

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1. snip

Well the Smallfolk of the Riverlands (supposedly the Norths allies) see them both as bad:

"Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference?

We also see that Northmen were raping and pillaging in the Stoney Sept

A man laughed bitterly. "The lions killed Ser Wilbert a year ago. His sons are all off with the Young Wolf, getting fat in the west. You think they give a damn for the likes of us? It was the Mad Huntsman caught these wolves."

Wolves. Arya went cold. Robb's men, and my father's.

And of course they pillage freely from their allies in the Riverlands:

Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged."

It is not until Lord Tarly comes that the smallfolk can finally trust an outsider:

Brienne felt obligated to pass along that warning to the farmer and his wife. The man nodded as she told him, but when she was done he spat again and said, "Dogs and wolves and lions, may the Others take them all. These outlaws won't dare come too near to Maidenpool. Not so long as Lord Tarly has the rule there."

And we hear of Northern effect on towns in the Riverlands

He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls.

There is little difference in the Riverlands between the actions of the Wolves and Lions, at least not according to the victims.

 

2. It doesn't say that Robb or Blackfish employed psychopaths to specifically commit the same level of atrocities we see above.

Of curse they did. They employed the Brave Companions, did they not?

 

 

 

 

4. Neither gang-raping 13 years old girls or hanging old women from trees because they had their pride hurt seem to be the norm. 

As disgusting as it was, Tysha was 14. Does not make it any better, but at least get your facts straight.

Heddle was hanged for Tyrion being abducted in her property, she broke guest rights.

 

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Tywin went a little too far with the Reynes and the Tarbecks.  There was no need to kill the innocent.  But, I am in agreement with the way he handled that pesky Robb Stark and his idiot bannermen.  Letting Robb live meant prolonged war and more damage to the realm.  The red wedding was brutal, but it was good for the realm.  Bad for the Starks, but good for the realm.  What is good for the Starks is not necessarily what is good for the realm. 

So you think Robb living and managing to make it back to the North would have been bad for the Realm? 

How was killing off the Stark army good for the realm?(Tywin murdering Robb wasn't for the good of the realm, he doesn't give a fuck about the realm so let's not use this BS excuse)

Westeros would be in better shape arguably to survive the Long Night if the Starks was in complete control of the North. Instead you have the Northernmen fighting each other and the north in complete chaos because of the Starks not being in control and instead of them fighting the ice zombie threat they're fighting each other. 

In all reality Robb making it back home could have been a huge bonus in the War against the Others. 

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So you think Robb living and managing to make it back to the North would have been bad for the Realm? 

If he stayed there and sought out peace then it would have been. We know that was not the case though, he was planning on continuing his unwinnable war no matter how many Northern smallfolk would die for his need for revenge.

How was killing off the Stark army good for the realm?(Tywin murdering Robb wasn't for the good of the realm, he doesn't give a fuck about the realm so let's not use this BS excuse)

It meant an end to war in the Riverlands (and potentially the North). We saw that after his death many Riverlords sued for peace, of the few Riverland locations we have seen in AFFC there has been signs at Maidenpool with Tarly, Darry with Kevan and Lancel and Harrenhal with Hasty of the Riverlands finally being rehabilitated.

Robb Stark alive and still at war means rehabilitation is still some ways off as all the Riverland resources is focused on war.

Preferably it would have been better for Robb to have sued for peace like his mother (on more than one occasion) suggested.

Westeros would be in better shape arguably to survive the Long Night if the Starks was in complete control of the North. Instead you have the Northernmen fighting each other and the north in complete chaos because of the Starks not being in control and instead of them fighting the ice zombie threat they're fighting each other.

During the war we have seen the crown send more men to the Wall than Robb Stark. Robb and his Northern vassals ignored all calls for help from the Wall.

In all reality Robb making it back home could have been a huge bonus in the War against the Others. 

If he stayed there I agree.

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Maybe not. If Tytos was not so weak, they wouldnt even rebel, but lets assume that it comes to rebellion and Lannister name means something. In that case it wouldnt be necessary to show off who is boss by being brutal, victory on battlefield is enough, example is Greyjoy rebellion: realm was strong and united and there was no need for butchering entire family, only punishment was sending Theon to best father in Westeros, imagine if Theon was fostered at Casterly Rock or Seaguard. But Lannisters were weak in eyes of everyone and Tywin was full of rage because of that and he needed to show the world that they are not for messing around anymore, if he wasnt brutal things would not be much different. Plus we have an AWESOME song! The only problem is that Tywin stayed brutal, after Castamere he could be merciful and people would fear him.

Even Starks killed off Greystarks amd imagine what they will do to Boltons if they reclaim Winterfell.

The Starks are no better than most other houses.  They're just as brutal.  I'm puzzled that people judge Tywin differently than say, Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf and Rickard Stark of the southron ambitions conspiracy fame. 

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1. “They rode down my ‘prentice boy,” said a squat man with a smith’s muscles and a bandage around his head. He had put on his finest clothes to come to court, but his breeches were patched, his cloak travel-stained and dusty. “Chased him back and forth across the fields on their horses, poking at him with their lances like it was a game, them laughing and the boy stumbling and screaming till the big one pierced him clean through.”The girl on her knees craned her head up at Ned, high above her on the throne. “They killed my mother too, Your Grace. And they... they...” Her voice trailed off, as if she had forgotten what she was about to say. She began to sob.
Ser Raymun Darry took up the tale. “At Wendish Town, the people sought shelter in their holdfast, but the walls were timbered. The raiders piled straw against the wood and burnt them all alive. When the Wendish folk opened their gates to flee the fire, they shot them down with arrows as they came running out, even women with suckling babes.”

“Aye,” said the Mad Huntsman, “and a kinder fate than you deserve for all your kind have done. Lions, you call yourselves. At Sherrer and the Mummer’s Ford, girls of six and seven years were raped, and babes still on the breast were cut in two while their mothers watched. No lion ever killed so cruel.”

2. It doesn't say that Robb or Blackfish employed psychopaths to specifically commit the same level of atrocities we see above.

3. It shows, according to a source that has never suffered any ill from the Lannister, that anyone is kinder than them. 

1. 

."The next night they found shelter beneath the scorched shell of a sept, in a burned village called Sallydance. Only shards remained of its windows of leaded glass, and the aged septon who greeted them said the looters had even made off with the Mother's costly robes, the Crone's gilded lantern, and the silver crown the Father had worn. "They hacked the Maiden's breasts off too, though those were only wood," he told them. "And the eyes, the eyes were jet and lapis and mother-of-pearl, they pried them out with their knives. May the Mother have mercy on them all."
"Whose work was this?" said Lem Lemoncloak. "Mummers?"

"No," the old man said. "Northmen, they were. Savages who worship trees."

 

Below, Jaime made out the smouldering remains of a large building, and a live oak full of dead women.

The crows had scarcely started on their corpses. The thin ropes cut deeply into the soft flesh of their throats, and when the wind blew they twisted and swayed. "This was not chivalrously done," said Brienne when they were close enough to see it clearly. "No true knight would condone such wanton butchery."


The wench was staring up at one of the dead women. Jaime shuffled closer with small stutter steps, the only kind the foot-long chain permitted. When he saw the crude sign hung about the neck of the highest corpse, he smiled. "They Lay With Lions," he read. "Oh, yes, woman, this was most unchivalrously done . . . But by your side, not mine. I wonder who they were, these women?"

"Tavern wenches," said Ser Cleos Frey. "This was an inn, I remember it now. Some men of my escort spent the night here when we last returned to Riverrun." Nothing remained of the building but the stone foundation and a tangle of collapsed beams, charred black. Smoke still rose from the ashes.

Jaime left brothels and whores to his brother Tyrion; Cersei was the only woman he had ever wanted. "The girls pleasured some of my lord father's soldiers, it would seem. Perhaps served them food and drink. That's how they earned their traitors' collars, with a kiss and a cup of ale." He glanced up and down the river, to make certain they were quite alone. "This is Bracken land. Lord Jonos might have ordered them killed. My father burned his castle, I fear he loves us not."

"It might be Marq Piper's work," said Ser Cleos. "Or that wisp o' the wood Beric Dondarrion, though I'd heard he kills only soldiers. Perhaps a band of Roose Bolton's northmen?"

"Bolton was defeated by my father on the Green Fork."

2. It says exactly what I posted, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this statement. Though the above quote shows that northern pillaging is indistinguishable from the "psychopathic" bloody mummers.

3.No, it shows being kinder than them isn't hard. It does not show Ramsay Snow is kinder.

Regarding Ramsay, he did Roose Bolton a favor to ensure his loyalty. I doubt rumours about his atrocities influenced this decision any more than they influenced Robb's decision to let him have Theon. 

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Well the Smallfolk of the Riverlands (supposedly the Norths allies) see them both as bad:

"Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference?

We also see that Northmen were raping and pillaging in the Stoney Sept

A man laughed bitterly. "The lions killed Ser Wilbert a year ago. His sons are all off with the Young Wolf, getting fat in the west. You think they give a damn for the likes of us? It was the Mad Huntsman caught these wolves."

Wolves. Arya went cold. Robb's men, and my father's.

And of course they pillage freely from their allies in the Riverlands:

Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged."

It is not until Lord Tarly comes that the smallfolk can finally trust an outsider:

Brienne felt obligated to pass along that warning to the farmer and his wife. The man nodded as she told him, but when she was done he spat again and said, "Dogs and wolves and lions, may the Others take them all. These outlaws won't dare come too near to Maidenpool. Not so long as Lord Tarly has the rule there."

And we hear of Northern effect on towns in the Riverlands

He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls.

There is little difference in the Riverlands between the actions of the Wolves and Lions, at least not according to the victims.

 

Of curse they did. They employed the Brave Companions, did they not?

 

 

As disgusting as it was, Tysha was 14. Does not make it any better, but at least get your facts straight.

Heddle was hanged for Tyrion being abducted in her property, she broke guest rights.

 

1. There is a big different between sending the Mountain and his soldiers to do as they please against the smallfolk in a action that was specifically thought out by Tywin and the rape and pillage that inevitably occurs during a war. Both instances are awful but there is a fundamental difference. None of these crimes committed by wolves were ordered by Robb or any lord in his army, as far as we know. In Harrenhal the torture and murders were conducted by the Tickler while Tywin was in control. On the other hand there are no atrocities described that can be directly traced back to Robb's instructions, being instead acts of violence committed by nameless soldiers fighting for the Starks, while Tywin has at least two occurring under his nose: the butchery I quoted in my last post and the killings in Harrenhal (during the War of the Five Kings, of course. His record of crimes doesn't stop here). He knows what kind of men he has under his command and he gives them free range and prominent positions in his army.

2. Roose Bolton employed the Brave Companions while Robb and Brynden were in the west. He also sent Tallhart and his troops to Duskendale and Robb never knew that. I'm not saying Robb is free from blame because he made Roose his main general in the Riverlands without knowing how ruthless and sadistic he was, but still not the same as hiring and giving direct orders to scum like the Bloody Mummers.

3. Masha was never responsible for the kidnapping. He doesn't have an army to oppose the Lady of Winterfell and her father's bannermen.

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I don't like Tywin at all, really. When a character commits atrocities, they better have some better qualities that balance it out. Tywin didn't have any of those. He was a mean, spiteful person prone to tremendous overreaction. His fight to preserve the Lannister name will more likely curse it for the next generation.       

I knew I liked you for a reason :-) 

Also here's my question. When did Tywin have to fight so hard to preserve the Lannister name besides the Reyne andTarbeck rebellion? 

People defend Tywin's actions with he was doing it to protect his house or the Lannister name but when have House Lannister ever been in danger besides the Reyne/Tarbecks years to warrent the atrocities Tywin has committed all in the name of protecting his house. 

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1. There is a big different between sending the Mountain and his soldiers to do as they please against the smallfolk in a action that was specifically thought out by Tywin and the rape and pillage that inevitably occurs during a war.

Not according to the victims there is not. They lumped in the Lions and Wolves as one. both as bad as each other.

2. Roose Bolton employed the Brave Companions while Robb and Brynden were in the west

So?

They were employed by the North just as the Sellswords with Jaime were employed by Robb. Do you think he is checking their CV's. Of course not, he was desperate for more men he would have accepted anyone. You are very, very naive for thinking otherwise.

3. Masha was never responsible for the kidnapping.

Happened on her property. Personally I think all these outdated superstitions like Guest rights are ridiculous but she broke them.

He doesn't have an army to oppose the Lady of Winterfell and her father's bannermen.

I must have missed the small print in the guest right laws. I don't recall them being allowed to be broken for special reasons. She had a duty to protect her guest and she broke it. She didnt need an army as Cat on had a small amount of people. Perhaps if she tried (and still failed) she would not have been punished.

Archaic laws are BS in my opinion but I see little difference between this an Ned chopping of Gareds head. Both Ned and Tywin could have been more understanding, sadly they were not.

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1. 

 

2. It says exactly what I posted, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this statement. Though the above quote shows that northern pillaging is indistinguishable from the "psychopathic" bloody mummers.

3.No, it shows being kinder than them isn't hard. It does not show Ramsay Snow is kinder.

Regarding Ramsay, he did Roose Bolton a favor to ensure his loyalty. I doubt rumours about his atrocities influenced this decision any more than they influenced Robb's decision to let him have Theon. 

1 and 2. Stealing from septs is the same as killing infants, raping little girls, killing mothers and their suckling babies and laughing while stabbing an unarmed man? There is no difference in the occurrences? Like I said these were over the tops action of violence and, at least the first one I quoted, was directly ordered by Tywin. I doubt Robb or any lord for that matter instructed soldiers to hang prostitutes that slept with "lions". It's clearly the random act of violence done by nameless and cruel northern men. The monster is Tywin's army are highly distinguishable and rewarded by him: Gregor Clegane and his lot, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat.

3. Arwyn Oakheart doesn't even know who Ramsay is. She shows that she thinks that the Lannister are diametrically opposed to the concept of kindness, implying they are particularly ruthless. If kindness is equivalent to being dry in her metaphor, the Lannister are the sea, the wettest thing you can come up with.

The fact remains that they greatly rewarded one of the worst criminals of the Seven Kingdoms just because he served their interests. It shows how corrupt and fucked up the Lannister regime is.

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1 and 2. Stealing from septs is the same as killing infants, raping little girls, killing mothers and their suckling babies and laughing while stabbing an unarmed man? There is no difference in the occurrences? Like I said these were over the tops action of violence and, at least the first one I quoted, was directly ordered by Tywin.

It's clearly the random act of violence done by nameless and cruel northern men. The monster is Tywin's army are highly distinguishable and rewarded by him: Gregor Clegane and his lot, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat.

3. Arwyn Oakheart doesn't even know who Ramsay is. She shows that she thinks that the Lannister are diametrically opposed to the concept of kindness, implying they are particularly ruthless. If kindness is equivalent to being dry in her metaphor, the Lannister are the sea, the wettest thing you can come up with.

The fact remains that they greatly rewarded one of the worst criminals of the Seven Kingdoms just because he served their interests. It shows how corrupt and fucked up the Lannister regime is.

1. There are also innocent women and a burned down village, but alittledragons quotes work very well too to describe how there is little to no difference between northern and western brutality.

2. Prove it, in this case they'd be deserters.

3. Yes, I know. The quote shows the abscence of kindness, nothing more, nothing less. 

4. Not legitimizing him wouldn't have stopped him from committing atrocities, and I doubt Roose would have cooperated without getting Ramsay legitimized. Besides Robb employed Ramsay as well.

Also here's my question. When did Tywin have to fight so hard to preserve the Lannister name besides the Reyne andTarbeck rebellion? 

People defend Tywin's actions with he was doing it to protect his house or the Lannister name but when have House Lannister ever been in danger besides the Reyne/Tarbecks years to warrent the atrocities Tywin has committed all in the name of protecting his house. 

How is that relevant? You already mentioned the notorious abscence of law in the Westerlands which culminated in the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion. That cannot be left out when explaining Tywins' behaviour.

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Still, us, as readers, can draw the conclusion that Tywin is much crueler in conducting warfare than Robb, which was my main point all along. None of the acts described in your quotes are as shocking as murdering mothers and their toddlers, raping little girls and stabbing men for fun. War is hell but with Tywin involved is a special kind of hell.

I never said he would not accept them. But you know who really checked his men's CV before using them? Tywin Lannister.

Guest rights determine that a guest can not be harmed under a roof. Tyrion was never harmed in the inn. Masha Heddle treated him as a guest and had nothing to do with his arrest. Her death is way crueler than Gared's, even though he is also a very sympathetic character and, of course, I don't agree with his execution either. But I can see a reason for not letting deserters from the Night's Watch go unpunished. It could severely compromise the safety of the North and its people. Now I can see no reason for a woman who was little more than a witness to an act that we don't even know if it was a crime (a "grey area", like GRRM said) not be spared. It wouldn't harm anyone or anything in the realm except Tywin's pride. No one would claim that the inaction of an innkeeper compromised the institution of guest right. It stinks of petty and misdirected revenge all the way through. In Masha's point of view Tyrion was a suspect being arrested by the daughter of her overlord. If Tywin gave two shits about guest rights he wouldn't abet the Red Wedding. He should have hanged himself in a tree if that was the logic he was going for.

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How is that relevant? You already mentioned the notorious abscence of law in the Westerlands which culminated in the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion. That cannot be left out when explaining Tywins' behaviour.

of course it's relevant. 

Like I said people defend Tywin's atrocities by saying that they were necessary in order to preserve his house but I'm wondering when did the Lannisters need preserving after the Reynes and Tarbeck rebellion? 

 

And using the Reyne and Tarbeck rebellion shouldn't be used as a way to excuse Tywin's crimes. 

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Just because you don't want to call a person good or evil doesn't mean the words are bad.  If you have any hesitation calling the gang rape of a 13 year old girl "evil" then you have a very messed up view of the world.  

Did I ever defend Tywin's morality? Personally I think it's utterly ignorant to presume that all people can be shoehorned into two different categories and that the world isn't more complicated than that. But hey, how can I argue with logic like "if you don't agree with me then (insert random personal insult here)"?

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Personally I think it's utterly ignorant to presume that all people can be shoehorned into two different categories and that the world isn't more complicated than that.

I always wonder why so many readers disagree with this even though Martin tries to make the same point.

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Still, us, as readers, can draw the conclusion that Tywin is much crueler in conducting warfare than Robb, which was my main point all along.

No we cant. We have direct evidence from the Riverland smallfolk that they were both committing similar atrocities. They saw little difference between these two groups. And if that is what they were doing in the Riverlands then they must have been commiting similar, if not worse, actions on the Westerland small folk.

Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands.

The people suffering at Harrenhal actually find it worse under Northern rule than they did under Westerland rule.

"I hate this lot worse. Ser Amory was fighting for his lord, but the Mummers are sellswords and turncloaks. Half of them can't even speak the Common Tongue. Septon Utt likes little boys, Qyburn does black magic, and your friend Biter eats people."

The worst thing was, she couldn't even say he was wrong. The Brave Companions did most of the foraging for Harrenhal, and Roose Bolton had given them the task of rooting out Lannisters.

The major difference is that Robb's military (the 6k of Northermn, sellswords and Freys) looks better as we are seeing them through Robb Starks mother who does not see any of the battles, only sees the top officers who are on their best behaviour around Lady Stark.

We have no reason to think that the North does have their own equivalents of Lorch and the Mountain(well not as powerful) in their ranks. It is just that we don't get the point of view from the Westerland smallfolk who would have experienced first hand the Northern versions.

 

 

None of the acts described in your quotes are as shocking as murdering mothers and their toddlers, raping little girls and stabbing men for fun. War is hell but with Tywin involved is a special kind of hell.

Of course they are. The North men at Septy Stone were raping women at Stoney Sept. Shit, the Northerners were stabbing each other at Winterfell.

 

I never said he would not accept them. But you know who really checked his men's CV before using them? Tywin Lannister.

Yes you did. You claimed that Robb would never employ psychopaths, clearly that is wrong. Both sides would have their fair share of 'monsters' in their ranks as sadly in medieval war were you are regularly hacking other humans to pieces it robs many men of their humanity. By being a monster you not only survive longer but are more useful to your Lord.

Guest rights determine that a guest can not be harmed under a roof. 

And Tyrion was. He was abducted (the Kings language own words) which is being harmed. He was given no choice, taken by force and swordpoint.

If Tywin gave two shits about guest rights he wouldn't abet the Red Wedding. He should have hanged himself in a tree if that was the logic he was going for.

Why? He didn't break guest rights? The Freys and Boltons did. He certainly benefited from it but he was neither the host or the guest.

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